Apostasy

[Jedi Knight]

Dr. Walter. What is the consequence of regenerate Christians like David who commit murder and adultery but unlike David do not repent of it? What happens in the midst of their murder or adultery they die? What then?

The seal is still in tact..... if that's what you want to argue.
Dr. Walter was dead on about a true believer can fall....but they cannot deny the testimony on the inside "by the Holy Spirit" reveled truth that the unregenerate can only mimic. Remember the testimony of God is greater than the testimony of man.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The seal is still in tact..... if that's what you want to argue.
Dr. Walter was dead on about a true believer can fall....but they cannot deny the testimony on the inside "by the Holy Spirit" reveled truth that the unregenerate can only mimic. Remember the testimony of God is greater than the testimony of man.

Yea, yea, yea.......we know already!

 

[Jedi Knight]

Yea, yea, yea.......we know already!

Was I talking to you rude dude?

 

[Matt Black]

Amy, my heart goes out to you and your husband. This recession has really hit people hard. We're skating close to the edge ourselves right now: my law practice is, save for a miracle, failing and we could lose our home. Events such as these can really rock and devastate our faith. It's particularly hard for men, I think: we are raised to be the providers for our families and when we can't do this, that pretty much strikes at the heart of what it is to be a man. Every morning I drag myself into work and cry out, "How long, O Lord, how long?!" I keep trying to remind myself of God's promises but they seem to ring hollow right now. This sort of situation can drive us to severe doubt, even to temporarily giving up on God. But God doesn't give up on us; when we feel cut loose from the moorings of our faith, that is when He is closest to us, though we rarely realise this. Your husband can't walk in his faith right now, so God's carrying him, and so must you by your prayers.:1_grouphug:

Much love and prayers to you both.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Was I talking to you rude dude?

I don't think you know who you were talking to..... talk to the wind then & take notes from Matt Black who has a level of compassion & presence in the situation.

 

[Jedi Knight]

I don't think you know who you were talking to.....

Again was I talking to you. Pay attention.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Again was I talking to you. Pay attention.

Ohhhhhhhhhh, now Im intimidated. LOL

 

[webdog]

Why don't you guys take your spitting match to PM or another thread...this is not the place for it. A sister in Christ is hurting and the back and forth is quite immature and childish.

 

[Zenas]

Why don't you guys take your spitting match to PM or another thread...this is not the place for it. A sister in Christ is hurting and the back and forth is quite immature and childish.

Well said, and a hearty Amen! to that. :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, my heart goes out to you and your husband. This recession has really hit people hard. We're skating close to the edge ourselves right now: my law practice is, save for a miracle, failing and we could lose our home. Events such as these can really rock and devastate our faith. It's particularly hard for men, I think: we are raised to be the providers for our families and when we can't do this, that pretty much strikes at the heart of what it is to be a man. Every morning I drag myself into work and cry out, "How long, O Lord, how long?!" I keep trying to remind myself of God's promises but they seem to ring hollow right now. This sort of situation can drive us to severe doubt, even to temporarily giving up on God. But God doesn't give up on us; when we feel cut loose from the moorings of our faith, that is when He is closest to us, though we rarely realise this. Your husband can't walk in his faith right now, so God's carrying him, and so must you by your prayers.:1_grouphug:

Much love and prayers to you both.

Thanks Matt. It's hard for me to understand the man's point of view sometimes. Thanks for telling me your own feelings. It's helps.

It's hard for me to feel compassion for him sometimes because he takes his anger and bitterness out on me even though it's not my fault. It's hard not to feel hurt and insulted because I want him to take care of me and help me (emotionally) in this situation, but he is just not able to. I feel very alone most of the time.

But through all of this, God has strengthened me in amazing ways. He has provided for us in so many ways.

A couple of months ago, I felt completely hopeless and was in total fear all of the time. My heart would pound at the thought of what was going to happen. I would try to read my bible and just could not concentrate on the words. Then I felt lead to read the Psalms and for several weeks that's all I read every day. The fear began to subside and peace took it's place. I began to trust in God's promises for those that love Him.

I know that when we hurt, if we turn away from God, it only makes things much, much worse. That's what upsets me so much about my husband. I know that his life will be miserable until he lets go and reaches out for the Lord. And of course when he's miserable, everyone around him is miserable as well.

Thank you ALL for your prayers and concerns. I never expected such response. We're usually busy here at the BB fussing with each other (lol) and it's easy for me to forget that we're all still brothers and sisters.

If I could see you all in person, I would give each of you a great big hug!


I'm going to pray for each one of you. I forget how this economy has caused suffering for others as well.

 

[Amy.G]

Why don't you guys take your spitting match to PM or another thread...this is not the place for it. A sister in Christ is hurting and the back and forth is quite immature and childish.

Thanks wd. Even though we've debated and fussed at each other, we have always been friends. I'm thankful for you. :flower:

 

[RAdam]

RAdam asserted his theology and then tried to shut down everyone else by chiding others about trying to determine the salvation status instead of praying. Gospelgeek reaffirmed the need to pray and pray real hard.

I responded to both posts, agreeing there is a need to pray but there is also the need to realize this is a spiritual attack upon her own faith as well, and she needs not merely prayer but all the support she can get to strengthen her own faith. The assertion of a works salvation is an spiritual attack by Satan.

Thanks for the baseless accusations. I wasn't trying to shut down everyone else. I was stating bible truths.

It isn't my theology, it is what the bible says. Paul warned that some would depart from the faith. You cannot depart from the faith unless you were part of the faith. It didn't say some would depart from faith, but from the faith. That is, of course, speaking of apostacy from the truth of the gospel. However, the same author told us that if one believes not, yet He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself. All of His are part of Him. They belong to Him. He bought them with His own blood. He holds them in His hand, in fact they are graven on His hands. Children of God can apostocize, but they cannot fall finally away and perish eternally because they are preserved by the power of God. That is bible truth.

What is not according to scripture is the calvinist practice of judging another person's salvation. They have erected a false doctrine, that all children of God will perservere in faith. (By the way, I can never get a straight answer on the degree of perserverence. Could that be because there is not one scripture that states this?) In consequence of this false doctrine, they must view someone that departs from the faith as not being a "true born again child of God." Thus, they start judging the salvation of another person. The Lord knoweth them that are His.

Yes, a child of God can depart from the faith. It's sad, but it is true, and it has happened. Nevertheless, what a child of God cannot do is negate the blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for them, noone can lay anything to their charge, they are preserved in Him, and will be with Him. That is a comforting thing which the bible clearly declares.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thanks for the baseless accusations. I wasn't trying to shut down everyone else. I was stating bible truths.

It isn't my theology, it is what the bible says. Paul warned that some would depart from the faith. You cannot depart from the faith unless you were part of the faith. It didn't say some would depart from faith, but from the faith. That is, of course, speaking of apostacy from the truth of the gospel. However, the same author told us that if one believes not, yet He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself. All of His are part of Him. They belong to Him. He bought them with His own blood. He holds them in His hand, in fact they are graven on His hands. Children of God can apostocize, but they cannot fall finally away and perish eternally because they are preserved by the power of God. That is bible truth.

What is not according to scripture is the calvinist practice of judging another person's salvation. They have erected a false doctrine, that all children of God will perservere in faith. (By the way, I can never get a straight answer on the degree of perserverence. Could that be because there is not one scripture that states this?) In consequence of this false doctrine, they must view someone that departs from the faith as not being a "true born again child of God." Thus, they start judging the salvation of another person. The Lord knoweth them that are His.

Yes, a child of God can depart from the faith. It's sad, but it is true, and it has happened. Nevertheless, what a child of God cannot do is negate the blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for them, noone can lay anything to their charge, they are preserved in Him, and will be with Him. That is a comforting thing which the bible clearly declares.

Well, thanks for that clarification. If I understand you correctly you are asserting once really saved always saved. On the other hand you are also asserting that a true child of God can depart from "the faith" but not depart from being saved. Since I do not believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints except as you have defined perseverance in the state of salvation then you are speaking of someone else. It seems we both have misunderstood each other. Clarification is good!

 

[Jedi Knight]

Amy,I stuck up for you before and will again.raying: BTW have you been fasting?

 

[Jedi Knight]

I know that when we hurt, if we turn away from God, it only makes things much, much worse.

Heard a message from Tony Evans TODAY talking about how Peter felt disillusioned and went back to fishing after his failure and how christians can think "that could never happen to me". I thought of you today!:flower: BUT that wasn't the end of the story! http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/the-alternative/listen/

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amy, here are some words from one of my favorite theologians, William Williams

Speak, I pray Thee, gentle Jesus!
O, how passing sweet Thy words,
Breathing o'er my troubled spirit
Peace which never earth affords!
All the world's distracting voices,
All the enticing tones o fill,
At Thy accents mild, melodious,
Are subdued, and all is still.

Tell me Thou art mine, O, Saviour,
Grant me an assurance clear,
Banish all my dark misgivings,
Still my doubting, calm my fear.
O, my soul within me yearneth
Now to hear Thy voice divine;
So shall grief he gone for ever,
And despair no more be mine.

 

[zrs6v4]

Have you ever seen anyone depart from the faith? Someone that you know was saved because you saw the change and the fruit?

First of all Amy, I have seen you on here for a few years and I dont know you personally, it also greatly mourns my heart to hear your situation.

I want to say that God is very faithful. Even if the worst thing happened you still have Him and He is your everything. Stay close to Him and let Him remain your delight even if it costs you all you have and the times seem empty and dim. Let your trust in God be your strength in your tough dealings with your husband. That may sound elementary, but apart from Him we can do nothing.

I have seen people deny their faith. Furthermore, we can see their fruit and rejoice, but we have no idea whats going on in the depths of their hearts. The heart is deeper than sincerity and emotions. The way one sees God deep inside beyond their seriousness and honesty outwardly is quite impossible to judge. I have seen my own Father go to church and cry his eyes out in worship and come home get in his car only to go straight to the casino and blow our money on crack cocaine and horse racing. I have searched my own father's heart over and over and I cant figure it out. Obviously, he is blind apart from his emotional outbreaks and sincerity. God has greatly used this situation if that even seems possible, although it is beyond hard to deal with.

With all that said, true worship comes from intimate knowledge of the reality of Jesus Christ. Without deep knowledge, that is beyond the knowledge of the flesh, our confessions are nothing and our worship is empty. So I think all the fruit we see in people can easily be misunderstood if we automatically assume their fruit is true. I say leave it in God's hands and focus on where He calls us to focus.

Do you believe a person can decide they don't believe in God after all and the Bible is only a man made book?

Yes and no. I think this goes back to the object that they rested their faith on. The depths of the human heart are unsearchable and unknowable. We don't know the object of anyone's faith. It can look so much like the real living Christ and can turn out a fraud. I don't want you to go into despair and begin to focus on doubting your husbands salvation. Again, leave it in God's hands.

A true believer who has totally and truly been born of God, indwelt by God the Spirit, and sealed. Has been planted by the stream of unending flow of spiritual life giving water that never ends or dies. It isn't the true believer who sustains himself or he would fall away in his own deceit. So to answer your question in terms of one who is truly God's- 100% no possible way. If he/she does and is a true believer, God will straighten him/her out and let them fall into misery until they return and in the process strengthen their faith also. Another option would be that their confession is not ultimately what they mean, they could just be saying it out of pain.

I have always thought this was impossible for a born again Christian, but I have seen it with my own eyes recently and I don't know what to think. It is very upsetting. :tear:

I cant understand the confusion and how tired you can get over something that serious. The only thing I cant repeat enough is to rest in Christ lay it all on Him and in time God's will and purposes will become clear whatever that may be.

 

[Dr. Walter]

First of all Amy, I have seen you on here for a few years and I dont know you personally, it also greatly mourns my heart to hear your situation.

I want to say that God is very faithful. Even if the worst thing happened you still have Him and He is your everything. Stay close to Him and let Him remain your delight even if it costs you all you have and the times seem empty and dim. Let your trust in God be your strength in your tough dealings with your husband. That may sound elementary, but apart from Him we can do nothing.

I have seen people deny their faith. Furthermore, we can see their fruit and rejoice, but we have no idea whats going on in the depths of their hearts. The heart is deeper than sincerity and emotions. The way one sees God deep inside beyond their seriousness and honesty outwardly is quite impossible to judge. I have seen my own Father go to church and cry his eyes out in worship and come home get in his car only to go straight to the casino and blow our money on crack cocaine and horse racing. I have searched my own father's heart over and over and I cant figure it out. Obviously, he is blind apart from his emotional outbreaks and sincerity. God has greatly used this situation if that even seems possible, although it is beyond hard to deal with.

With all that said, true worship comes from intimate knowledge of the reality of Jesus Christ. Without deep knowledge, that is beyond the knowledge of the flesh, our confessions are nothing and our worship is empty. So I think all the fruit we see in people can easily be misunderstood if we automatically assume their fruit is true. I say leave it in God's hands and focus on where He calls us to focus.



Yes and no. I think this goes back to the object that they rested their faith on. The depths of the human heart are unsearchable and unknowable. We don't know the object of anyone's faith. It can look so much like the real living Christ and can turn out a fraud. I don't want you to go into despair and begin to focus on doubting your husbands salvation. Again, leave it in God's hands.

A true believer who has totally and truly been born of God, indwelt by God the Spirit, and sealed. Has been planted by the stream of unending flow of spiritual life giving water that never ends or dies. It isn't the true believer who sustains himself or he would fall away in his own deceit. So to answer your question in terms of one who is truly God's- 100% no possible way. If he/she does and is a true believer, God will straighten him/her out and let them fall into misery until they return and in the process strengthen their faith also. Another option would be that their confession is not ultimately what they mean, they could just be saying it out of pain.




I cant understand the confusion and how tired you can get over something that serious. The only thing I cant repeat enough is to rest in Christ lay it all on Him and in time God's will and purposes will become clear whatever that may be.

Well spoken!:thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

I want to say that God is very faithful. Even if the worst thing happened you still have Him and He is your everything. Stay close to Him and let Him remain your delight even if it costs you all you have and the times seem empty and dim. Let your trust in God be your strength in your tough dealings with your husband. That may sound elementary, but apart from Him we can do nothing.

zrs, I just now saw your post. I don't know how I missed it. Thank you very much. Your post is very comforting. I pray that this is a temporary situation. I don't want my husband to suffer as a chastised child, but if that is the only way to bring him back to the Lord, then he must go through it. If he truly is God's child, the Lord will not let him find peace until he returns to him.
Thank you for your words. :flower: