Apostles, prophets and manifestations of the Holy Spirit

[Baptist Believer]

There are no sign gifts today. There are no Apostles today.

Thank you for your opinion.

I personally don’t like the term “sign gifts.” I prefer manifestations of the Spirit — that’s the biblical terminology — I Corinthians 12:7–11.

If God directly works/intervenes in the world today through the channels of His people, then you are likely to see manifestations of the Spirit if you care to look.

Missionaries are apostles, it’s as simple as that.

 

[Iconoclast]

And thanks for your opinions.
John MacArthur has it correct as he just echoes the historic teaching of all the confessional churches in history.
If you redefine terms you can attempt to explain away the foundational data revealed to the churches.
Biblical Apostles were unique.

 

[kyredneck]

Biblical Apostles were unique.

Amen! They had great authority given by Christ Himself.

 

[Iconoclast]

Amen! They had great authority given by Christ Himself.

Mk 3:14....mt28....mk16

 

[John of Japan]

And thanks for your opinions.
John MacArthur has it correct as he just echoes the historic teaching of all the confessional churches in history.
If you redefine terms you can attempt to explain away the foundational data revealed to the churches.
Biblical Apostles were unique.

I disagree that "no apostles after the NT" is the "historic teaching of all the confessional churches in history." Go back and look through the whole thread. The word "apostle" has been used down through church history for the first misisonary into a country: Patrick the "Apostle to Ireland," Ulphilas the "Apostle to the Goths," etc. etc. But going back to the early church fathers, both the Didache and the Shephard of Hermas speak of apostles well past the apostolic age.

And if apostle does not equal "missionary," then why are the journeys of the Apostle Paul called "missionary journeys"? He was a soul winning, church planting missionary, just like I was in Japan and many thousands of other fundamentalist and evangelical missionaries are worldwide.

Almost 100% of modern missiologists equate the modern missionary with the Biblical apostles. See Post #22.

 

[kyredneck]

I disagree that "no apostles after the NT" is the "historic teaching of all the confessional churches in history." Go back and look through the whole thread. The word "apostle" has been used down through church history for the first misisonary into a country: Patrick the "Apostle to Ireland," Ulphilas the "Apostle to the Goths," etc. etc. But going back to the early church fathers, both the Didache and the Shephard of Hermas speak of apostles well past the apostolic age.

And if apostle does not equal "missionary," then why are the journeys of the Apostle Paul called "missionary journeys"? He was a soul winning, church planting missionary, just like I was in Japan and many thousands of other fundamentalist and evangelical missionaries are worldwide.

You'd like we should address you as Apostle John?

 

[John of Japan]

You'd like we should address you as Apostle John?

No, because I'm not on the mission field anymore. But the term is so misunderstood (as in this thread) and misused (as with the Charismatics) nowadays, that I never use it as a title, but only in an academic setting or (usually to my regret) on the BB.

Let's take the apostles off of the pedestal the church has put them on since the days of Marcion, and remember they were normal and average people who God used to win souls and start churches.

 

[kyredneck]

No, because I'm not on the mission field anymore. But the term is so misunderstood (as in this thread) and misused (as with the Charismatics) nowadays, that I never use it as a title, but only in an academic setting or (usually to my regret) on the BB.

Let's take the apostles off of the pedestal the church has put them on since the days of Marcion, and remember they were normal and average people who God used to win souls and start churches.

Your name here?:

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, as needed and according to the will of God.

The sign gifts are active today and are manifested as needed. Regarding "revelations," God still speaks to His people. I know there is a thread of Christendom who is fiercely opposed to that idea, but that does not change the reality of it.
​

The "sign gifts" (aka, manifestations of the Holy Spirit) were never restricted to apostles of any age. The second post in this thread demonstrates this.

there would have to be modern day Apostles to have them !

 

[John of Japan]

Your name here?:

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21

Yeah, that's just the 12, who were somewhat special. And don't forget that they will judge the 12 tribes, too. And I have never claimed to be one of the 12.

There were many more apostles in the NT. Have you actually read the whole thread? Note these others I listed in Post #66:

1. Barnabas (Acts 14:13-14)
2. James the Lord’s brother (1 Cor. 15:7, Gal. 1:19)
3. Possibly Andronicus and Junias (Rom. 16:7)
4. Apollos (1 Cor. 4:6, 9)
5. Silvanus and Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:6)
6. Silas
7. Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25, messenger, ἀπόστολον)
8. Nameless “messengers” (2 Cor. 8:23, messengers, ἀπόστολοι)

 

[Yeshua1]

No, because I'm not on the mission field anymore. But the term is so misunderstood (as in this thread) and misused (as with the Charismatics) nowadays, that I never use it as a title, but only in an academic setting or (usually to my regret) on the BB.

Let's take the apostles off of the pedestal the church has put them on since the days of Marcion, and remember they were normal and average people who God used to win souls and start churches.

They were unique though, as they alone had sign gifts and wrote inspired scriptures!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah, that's just the 12, who were somewhat special. And don't forget that they will judge the 12 tribes, too. And I have never claimed to be one of the 12.

There were many more apostles in the NT. Have you actually read the whole thread? Note these others I listed in Post #66:

1. Barnabas (Acts 14:13-14)
2. James the Lord’s brother (1 Cor. 15:7, Gal. 1:19)
3. Possibly Andronicus and Junias (Rom. 16:7)
4. Apollos (1 Cor. 4:6, 9)
5. Silvanus and Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:6)
6. Silas
7. Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25, messenger, ἀπόστολον)
8. Nameless “messengers” (2 Cor. 8:23, messengers, ἀπόστολοι)

seemed to be the greater Apostles, the ones walked with Christ, and James and Paul who had resurrected Jesus appear to them, and lesser ones, more akin to modern missionaries!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your opinion.

I personally don’t like the term “sign gifts.” I prefer manifestations of the Spirit — that’s the biblical terminology — I Corinthians 12:7–11.

If God directly works/intervenes in the world today through the channels of His people, then you are likely to see manifestations of the Spirit if you care to look.

Missionaries are apostles, it’s as simple as that.

God can still heal and do miracles as he chooses today, but none gifted themselves to be doing that!

 

[Baptist Believer]

And thanks for your opinions.
John MacArthur has it correct as he just echoes the historic teaching of all the confessional churches in history.

That's a massive overstatement.

If you redefine terms you can attempt to explain away the foundational data revealed to the churches.

No one is explaining anything away. Have you read this thread from the beginning?

Biblical Apostles were unique.

I think you are confusing apostles with "The Twelve." There are no more member of The Twelve, but we have many apostles (missionaries) in the world today.

 

[Baptist Believer]

You'd like we should address you as Apostle John?

If he was an active missionary, it would be completely appropriate.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Your name here?:

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21

This beautifully illustrates how many are confusing regular apostles with "The Twelve."

 

[kyredneck]

Have you actually read the whole thread? Note these others

I've perused the thread and noted them. How many of those you think held the keys to the kingdom and whatever things two or more of them agreed on what should bound on earth would be bound in heaven or what should loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven? For example, the council at Jerusalem, Acts of the Apostles 15.

 

[John of Japan]

They were unique though, as they alone had sign gifts and wrote inspired scriptures!

Nope. The Bible doesn't say that.

 

[John of Japan]

I've perused the thread and noted them. How many of those you think held the keys to the kingdom and what things two or more of them agreed upon what they bound on earth would be bound in heaven or what they loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven? For example, the council at Jerusalem, Acts of the Apostles 15.

Only Peter had the keys to the kingdom. That's pretty basic exegesis. And the council at Jerusalem included Apostles Barnabas and Paul (not of the 12) and "elders" who were not apostles. So what's your point?

I hope you're not thinking of a career as a theologian, because you're not exegeting very well here. (Kidding.)

 

[kyredneck]

There are no more member of The Twelve, but we have many apostles (missionaries) in the world today.

A huge distinction between the two being WHO sent them. The one being sent by God, the other sent by boards of men.