Apostles, prophets and manifestations of the Holy Spirit

[Yeshua1]

That's a massive overstatement.


No one is explaining anything away. Have you read this thread from the beginning?


I think you are confusing apostles with "The Twelve." There are no more member of The Twelve, but we have many apostles (missionaries) in the world today.

None though have sign gifts nor revelations from the lord!

 

[John of Japan]

A huge distinction between the two being WHO sent them. The one being sent by God, the other sent by boards of men.

Really? I was directly called of God the Holy Spirit to be a missionary. And I was not sent by my mission board but through my board and from my local church. This dovetails very nicely with the story of Barnabas and Saul, sent by their local church and the Holy Spirit in Acts 13:1-4,

1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. {which...: or, Herod's foster brother}
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

 

[Baptist Believer]

there would have to be modern day Apostles to have them !

We have modern apostles, as we have discussed AT LENGTH. You claimed recently (IN THIS VERY DISCUSSION) that you believed this. Were you lying or is do you change your mind with every breeze of opinion that blows by. Or perhaps, as I suspect, you have a weird and compulsive need to argue against anything I say.

They were unique though, as they alone had sign gifts and wrote inspired scriptures!

(1) You are making no distinction between "The Twelve" and regular apostles.
(2) Your assertion that only apostles had "sign gifts" has been refuted several times in this very thread.
(3) Your assertion that all apostles (and only apostles) wrote inspired scriptures is patently false, as has been refuted on this thread by two of us. (Perhaps you believe the so-called Gospel of Thomas is scripture, since we don't know of anything that Thomas wrote?)

Seriously, do you have trouble forming long term memories?* You claim to read all of my posts, but you don't retain anything. We have just been through all this and you agreed with John of Japan on these issues.

*This is a serious question, not an insult (I don't do insults). I suffered from the inability to form long-term memories between 2012-2014 because of Cushing's Disease.

seemed to be the greater Apostles, the ones walked with Christ, and James and Paul who had resurrected Jesus appear to them, and lesser ones, more akin to modern missionaries!

You are describing the difference between "The Twelve" and regular apostles. We have been through this a couple of times.

God can still heal and do miracles as he chooses today, but none gifted themselves to be doing that!

It is quite clear that you have not read anything I've written about this IN THIS VERY THREAD:

In my understanding of the manifestation gifts (aka "sign gifts"), they are acts of God working through whoever is available for whoever has a need -- based on the will of God for that situation. Therefore, all Christians potentially can be a vessel to heal others, but no one has "the gift of healing." A person cannot choose to make healing happen outside of the will of God for the moment.

You are confusing manifestations (“sign gifts”) of the Holy Spirit with an office. Gifts are given to all, while some are called into special roles (“offices”). In regard to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, I believe these are different from “spiritual gifts” given elsewhere as a mode of service. Manifestations are enablings given, as needed, to believers in ministry activities.

If you paid attention to what I wrote about the manifestations of the Spirit (sign gifts), you would see that they are not controlled by the person through whom they are exercised. They are simply extraordinary works of God through His people, according to His will. That is a completely different thing from faith healers and the nuts on TV.​

None though have sign gifts nor revelations from the lord!

Your inability/unwillingness to receive, process, and apply new information makes discussion with you useless.

You simply demand that others accept your opinion as Pope of Baptists.

 

[Baptist Believer]

A huge distinction between the two being WHO sent them. The one being sent by God, the other sent by boards of men.

Wow! How arrogant of you to claim that missionaries are not called of God.

 

[37818]

Only Peter had the keys to the kingdom.

Matthew 16:19, ". . . And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: . . ."
How do you understand those keys to be?

 

[John of Japan]

Matthew 16:19, ". . . And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom
of heaven: . . ."
How do you understand those keys to be?

I believe it refers to Peter as being the one to first give the Gospel to both the Jews (Acts 2) and the Gentiles (Acts 10).

As I'm sure you realized, the "thee" you have underlined is singular in the Greek (σοι) so it can only refer to Peter. Thus, it had to be doors that only Peter should open: the doors for the Gospel to both the Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Yeshua1]

We have modern apostles, as we have discussed AT LENGTH. You claimed recently (IN THIS VERY DISCUSSION) that you believed this. Were you lying or is do you change your mind with every breeze of opinion that blows by. Or perhaps, as I suspect, you have a weird and compulsive need to argue against anything I say.


(1) You are making no distinction between "The Twelve" and regular apostles.
(2) Your assertion that only apostles had "sign gifts" has been refuted several times in this very thread.
(3) Your assertion that all apostles (and only apostles) wrote inspired scriptures is patently false, as has been refuted on this thread by two of us. (Perhaps you believe the so-called Gospel of Thomas is scripture, since we don't know of anything that Thomas wrote?)

Seriously, do you have trouble forming long term memories?* You claim to read all of my posts, but you don't retain anything. We have just been through all this and you agreed with John of Japan on these issues.

*This is a serious question, not an insult (I don't do insults). I suffered from the inability to form long-term memories between 2012-2014 because of Cushing's Disease.


You are describing the difference between "The Twelve" and regular apostles. We have been through this a couple of times.


It is quite clear that you have not read anything I've written about this IN THIS VERY THREAD:

In my understanding of the manifestation gifts (aka "sign gifts"), they are acts of God working through whoever is available for whoever has a need -- based on the will of God for that situation. Therefore, all Christians potentially can be a vessel to heal others, but no one has "the gift of healing." A person cannot choose to make healing happen outside of the will of God for the moment.

You are confusing manifestations (“sign gifts”) of the Holy Spirit with an office. Gifts are given to all, while some are called into special roles (“offices”). In regard to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, I believe these are different from “spiritual gifts” given elsewhere as a mode of service. Manifestations are enablings given, as needed, to believers in ministry activities.

If you paid attention to what I wrote about the manifestations of the Spirit (sign gifts), you would see that they are not controlled by the person through whom they are exercised. They are simply extraordinary works of God through His people, according to His will. That is a completely different thing from faith healers and the nuts on TV.​

Your inability/unwillingness to receive, process, and apply new information makes discussion with you useless.

You simply demand that others accept your opinion as Pope of Baptists.

So you would agree that no modern day Prophets or Apostles in the 12 Apostles sense of the term?

 

[kyredneck]

Only Peter had the keys to the kingdom. That's pretty basic exegesis.

It's 'pretty basic exegesis' to include Matthew 18.

And the council at Jerusalem included Apostles Barnabas and Paul (not of the 12)

1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), Gal 1

Paul had enough 'authority' to turn evildoers over to Satan for discipline:

19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5

...and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Barnabas and Nathaniel are the same person.

So what's your point?

Apostles have authority from God. Missionaries have authority from their respective boards of men.

I hope you're not thinking of a career as a theologian, because you're not exegeting very well here.

I've made an honest living from the work of my hands, and there's a lot of your exegesis in the past that I've found inadequate.

(Kidding.)

Yeah, right.

 

[kyredneck]

Wow! How arrogant of you to claim that missionaries are not called of God.

Merely making the same distinction as Paul:

1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), Gal 1

I said nothing about being 'called of God'.

 

[Baptist Believer]

So you would agree that no modern day Prophets or Apostles in the 12 Apostles sense of the term?

Since I have been hammering that there is a distinction between The Twelve and regular apostles (like Paul and Barnabas) for weeks, I still hold to that position. Have you decided to join us?

Regarding prophets, I have no idea why you are capitalizing the word. There have been male and female prophets, at least, since the day of Moses. I am primarily gifts as a prophet, so I obviously agree that they exist today. (And no, I don't make predictions.)

 

[Baptist Believer]

Paul had enough 'authority' to turn evildoers over to Satan for discipline,,,

All believers have this authority.

Apostles have authority from God. Missionaries have authority from their respective boards of men.

If missionaries do not have authority from God, they should go sell insurance and forget carrying the message of the gospel anywhere.

ALL believers have authority from God. It is on the basis of that authority that we share the gospel with power and conviction.

I've made an honest living from the work of my hands, and there's a lot of your exegesis in the past that I've found inadequate.

Every time I hear someone say that they "make an honest living" and criticize someone else, I think that they (1) feel inadequate; (2) don't understand that their own work, well done, gives glory to God and must not be diminished; (3) imply that the person they are comparing themselves to is somehow making a 'dishonest' living and is not as honorable as themselves.

The comment is unfair to both you and John of Japan.

 

[John of Japan]

It's 'pretty basic exegesis' to include Matthew 18.

What in Matt. 18? I see no connection.

1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), Gal 1

I was a God-called missionary "not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father." You cannot take my missionary call from me.

Paul had enough 'authority' to turn evildoers over to Satan for discipline:

19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5

And your point is?

...and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Barnabas and Nathaniel are the same person.

And your proof is?

Apostles have authority from God. Missionaries have authority from their respective boards of men.

Completely and totally wrong. God called me. My board simply helped me get to the field.

Again, look at Acts 13. God called Paul and Barnabas, and their church and the Holy Spirit sent them out. God called me, and my church and the Holy Spirit sent me out, not my mission board.

I've made an honest living from the work of my hands, and there's a lot of your exegesis in the past that I've found inadequate.

Fair enough--but when did I mention your career??

 

[Baptist Believer]

Merely making the same distinction as Paul:

1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), Gal 1

I said nothing about being 'called of God'.

Paul is making the point that he is not jumping on the bandwagon, but was ALSO called of God. He is not criticizing anyone else.

 

[Iconoclast]

I disagree that "no apostles after the NT" is the "historic teaching of all the confessional churches in history." Go back and look through the whole thread. The word "apostle" has been used down through church history for the first misisonary into a country: Patrick the "Apostle to Ireland," Ulphilas the "Apostle to the Goths," etc. etc. But going back to the early church fathers, both the Didache and the Shephard of Hermas speak of apostles well past the apostolic age.

And if apostle does not equal "missionary," then why are the journeys of the Apostle Paul called "missionary journeys"? He was a soul winning, church planting missionary, just like I was in Japan and many thousands of other fundamentalist and evangelical missionaries are worldwide.

Almost 100% of modern missiologists equate the modern missionary with the Biblical apostles. See Post #22.

John I am all for missions and church planters they are front and center and working in the vineyard.
I will offer a biblical response later if I have an opportunity and clarify why I hold to Apostolic Uniqueness.
All Christian's are sent ones in a secondary sense...but not Apostles at all.
The sent ones today....have the Apostles as foundational in scripture.
The signs of THE APOSTLES are right in scripture for us to read and communicate to new believers.
I will make a case for it and welcome any biblical correction.

 

[John of Japan]

John I am all for missions and church planters they are front and center and working in the vineyard.
I will offer a biblical response later if I have an opportunity and clarify why I hold to Apostolic Uniqueness.
All Christian's are sent ones in a secondary sense...but not Apostles at all.
The sent ones today....have the Apostles as foundational in scripture.
The signs of THE APOSTLES are right in scripture for us to read and communicate to new believers.
I will make a case for it and welcome any biblical correction.

Okey dokey.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's a massive overstatement.


No one is explaining anything away. Have you read this thread from the beginning?


I think you are confusing apostles with "The Twelve." There are no more member of The Twelve, but we have many apostles (missionaries) in the world today.

I have read the thread but stayed out because when y1 tweets without scriptures I feel less inclined to jump in.
I hope to offer a biblical case in response...need to be on my laptop...my phone keyboard is small or my hands are large.
I will offer on it and you and John can critic it.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I have read the thread but stayed out because when y1 tweets without scriptures I feel less inclined to jump in.

I completely understand.

I hope to offer a biblical case in response...need to be on my laptop...my phone keyboard is small or my hands are large.
I will offer on it and you and John can critic it.

I'm looking forward to it. Thanks.

 

[tyndale1946]

I completely understand.

I'm looking forward to it. Thanks.

I have a question if two missionaries of two different beliefs, (because there are missionaries of all beliefs) meet in the same area to evangelize, what do you do?... Are you both there to help the people of the culture or are you there it persuade them to believe as you believe?... As I heard a preacher way back in the day say... Don't get me wrong sermons are beneficial and helpful to Gods people but I would rather see a sermon walking than hear one... Are you a walking sermon?... I feel and this and this is the way I see it, I can walk a man to God quicker than I can talk a man to God... What can your God do for me?... The same as he has done for me!... Lead by example, just as Jesus did, who was a walking example... That to me brethren is a true missionary... Brother Glen

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 5:50 PM Pacific.

 

[Yeshua1]

Since I have been hammering that there is a distinction between The Twelve and regular apostles (like Paul and Barnabas) for weeks, I still hold to that position. Have you decided to join us?

Regarding prophets, I have no idea why you are capitalizing the word. There have been male and female prophets, at least, since the day of Moses. I am primarily gifts as a prophet, so I obviously agree that they exist today. (And no, I don't make predictions.)

No prophets today as they were in the OT....