Applying Christ blood to recent sin

[Amy.G]

We also easily forget that he died for our justification, but we are also told to justify ourselves repeatedly.

Why do we remember the one and forget the other?

Where are we called to justify ourselves? Scripture?

 

[PastorSBC1303]

I would also like Scriptures for the fact that we are to "justify" ourselves.

Also, I would like to know how it is possible for us to justify ourselves?

Is the justification of God not good enough?

 

[npetreley]

No, I knew what you were going to say before you said it. But I wanted to hear you say it.

Romans 6:19-20
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15:34
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Excellent. Now tell me how we got the righteousness that we were free from, and to which we awake. Why do we yield to righteousness? To whose righteousness are we yielding?

Warning: This is the same trick question.

 

[Steven2006]

I just want to clarify something from the posters that believe some will go to hell for 1000 years.

Say a person was saved. Has lived what everyone would agree is an exemplary life. He was walking across a street, and upon seeing an attractive lady had a lustful thought. Just at that moment he is stuck and killed by a car. Would he then spend 1000 years in hell because he didn't have a chance to repent of that sin?

 

[J. Jump]

Steven that question has already been answered, although a different scenario was used. Most didn't like the answer, but simply the judgment is for Christ alone. He is the only One that can make that determination.

The question that should be asked is what should I be doing, and how close can I get to Jesus, how much can I be separated from the world, the flesh and Satan, not how much can I get away with or is one sin going to do me in.

Welcome to the discussion.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I need to clarify a poorly worded statement that I made. When I said we need to justify ourselves, the justification comes from God, but it is based upon what we do. The justification itself doesn't come from within ourselves.

But, look at Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed [aorist active indicative] in Jesus Christ (salvation), that we might be justified by the faith of [genitive, from] Christ (after salvation), and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

This shows that justification may (or may not) be our portion after we are saved. Paul says that we believe first to be saved. This verb "believe" is in the same tense as Paul used with the Philippian Jailor. It's how we are saved. We believe in the Lord Jesus and we will be saved. Then, Paul continues by saying after salvation we may be justified by faith. Simply being born from above into the family of God does not guarantee your justification.

What is justification? If we are just we are not chargeable. If I drive 30 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, I am not under the law and I am not chargeable. If I drive over 30 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, I am chargeable. If we live in sin, we will not stand in his presence justified unless we confess those sins and forsake them.

Confessing of sin is the same thing as breaking the speed limit and driving to the nearest precinct and tell the officer at the desk that you were guilty of speeding and ask him to write you a ticket. The Lord does not operate that way. He lets you judge yourself and forsake the sin and he pronounces you just. The reason for this is that you might make shipwreck of the faith. You cannot make shipwreck of the verb "believe". You either believe or you don't. You may depart from the faith and if you depart from the faith you will not justified.

Justification is defined in Romans 8:33 which says, “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth”. Justification means to stand unchargeable. Notice that it is God who justifieth. That’s a present, active, participle. What that means is that it’s an ongoing process. Present tense, you draw a line. It’s not an event; it’s an ongoing process. That ongoing process is sinning. When we sin, we are chargeable. When we confess that sin, what happens? We are not chargeable.

Did you know that there are some sins in our lives that we will not repent of and we will not confess? Do you know what that means? When you stand in his presence, you will be chargeable for that sin of lawlessness.

1 John 1:9 tells us, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. If we do not confess our sins, he is faithful and just to charge us with unconfessed sin, and we will have to deal with that at the Judgment Seat.


Justification is all about hearing, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

When we look in Galatians, we need to see to whom it is written. In Galatians 6:18, we see that this book is addressed to brethren. It says, “Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.” Matthew 12:50 tells us that “brethren” are those who are doing the will of the father; those who are being obedient; those who are serious about entering the Kingdom. That’s who the book of Galatians is written to, but they are erring from the truth. Paul is endeavoring to help them see the error of their way. Those to whom this book was written began in the Spirit of the son; they were able to say, “Abba Father”, just as Jesus was able to do that. When we are praying “Abba Father”, we are saying that we know all things are possible; we’re saying to the father, “you can change anything”. It’s not our wills that is important. That’s the spirit of the book of Galatians. It’s the spirit of an adult son. An adult son has responsibility and accountability. That’s what Paul is dealing with here. This book is not written to unsaved people.


This book confuses many people because they try to apply it to getting saved and getting born into the family. But, it’s dealing with justification, not salvation. If we expect to rule and reign, we have to live our lives in such a way that we will hear “well done, thou good and faithful servant”. Salvation will not provide that automatically, despite what some say. Scriptures certainly don't say that.


Galatians 2:16-17: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

In Galatians 2:16-17, there are three things being talked about: Faith, law, and salvation:

Faith is a lifestyle. It’s not an event. It can be stopped.
Law is a lifestyle. It’s not an event. It can be stopped. There are two sets of laws:

Moral Law – We can live in the moral law. We can not steal, lie, murder, etc. It’s not an event; it’s a lifestyle. We have to be obedient to the commandments. You cannot be just and ignore the moral law. Luke 1:6 tells us that Elizabeth and Zechariah were both just because they obeyed God.


Ceremonial Law – has to do with the ordinances that God gave Moses on the mountain and were established when the children of Israel set up the tabernacle and the temple in Jerusalem and the people came to offer animal sacrifices.

When we see the word “law”, there’s a distinction: There’s the moral law and there is the ceremonial law. Both can be stopped. The children of Israel didn’t have to go to the temple. A male was required by the law to go down three times per year, and he could simply stop. We don’t live under the ceremonial law today. We don’t have to go down to the temple three times per year and offer animal sacrifices, but we are under the moral law.

Salvation is an event. It either happens, or it doesn’t. You either believe on the Lord Jesus and that he died on the cross for your sins, or you don’t. If you believe, you’re saved; if you don’t, you’re not.

Justification is by faith. “That we might be justified by faith.” Because justification is by faith, and faith is a lifestyle, justification will depend upon your lifestyle. Justification is not an event; it’s a process. The reason it’s a process is because it’s by faith. Faith is a process. Without faith, it’s impossible to please God. We’re going to have to please God, if we’re going to stand approved. That’s what justification is about; it’s about standing approved.

You can make shipwreck of the faith. You cannot make shipwreck of believe.

Now, I have to get back to work before I make shipwreck of my paycheck.

 

[npetreley]

Then he went on to prove that black is white.

 

[TCGreek]

I need to clarify a poorly worded statement that I made. When I said we need to justify ourselves, the justification comes from God, but it is based upon what we do. The justification itself doesn't come from within ourselves.

But, look at Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed [aorist active indicative] in Jesus Christ (salvation), that we might be justified by the faith of [genitive, from] Christ (after salvation), and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

This shows that justification may (or may not) be our portion after we are saved. Paul says that we believe first to be saved. This verb "believe" is in the same tense as Paul used with the Philippian Jailor. It's how we are saved. We believe in the Lord Jesus and we will be saved. Then, Paul continues by saying after salvation we may be justified by faith. Simply being born from above into the family of God does not guarantee your justification.

What is justification? If we are just we are not chargeable. If I drive 30 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, I am not under the law and I am not chargeable. If I drive over 30 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, I am chargeable. If we live in sin, we will not stand in his presence justified unless we confess those sins and forsake them.

Confessing of sin is the same thing as breaking the speed limit and driving to the nearest precinct and tell the officer at the desk that you were guilty of speeding and ask him to write you a ticket. The Lord does not operate that way. He lets you judge yourself and forsake the sin and he pronounces you just. The reason for this is that you might make shipwreck of the faith. You cannot make shipwreck of the verb "believe". You either believe or you don't. You may depart from the faith and if you depart from the faith you will not justified.

Justification is defined in Romans 8:33 which says, “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth”. Justification means to stand unchargeable. Notice that it is God who justifieth. That’s a present, active, participle. What that means is that it’s an ongoing process. Present tense, you draw a line. It’s not an event; it’s an ongoing process. That ongoing process is sinning. When we sin, we are chargeable. When we confess that sin, what happens? We are not chargeable.

Did you know that there are some sins in our lives that we will not repent of and we will not confess? Do you know what that means? When you stand in his presence, you will be chargeable for that sin of lawlessness.

1 John 1:9 tells us, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. If we do not confess our sins, he is faithful and just to charge us with unconfessed sin, and we will have to deal with that at the Judgment Seat.


Justification is all about hearing, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

When we look in Galatians, we need to see to whom it is written. In Galatians 6:18, we see that this book is addressed to brethren. It says, “Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.” Matthew 12:50 tells us that “brethren” are those who are doing the will of the father; those who are being obedient; those who are serious about entering the Kingdom. That’s who the book of Galatians is written to, but they are erring from the truth. Paul is endeavoring to help them see the error of their way. Those to whom this book was written began in the Spirit of the son; they were able to say, “Abba Father”, just as Jesus was able to do that. When we are praying “Abba Father”, we are saying that we know all things are possible; we’re saying to the father, “you can change anything”. It’s not our wills that is important. That’s the spirit of the book of Galatians. It’s the spirit of an adult son. An adult son has responsibility and accountability. That’s what Paul is dealing with here. This book is not written to unsaved people.


This book confuses many people because they try to apply it to getting saved and getting born into the family. But, it’s dealing with justification, not salvation. If we expect to rule and reign, we have to live our lives in such a way that we will hear “well done, thou good and faithful servant”. Salvation will not provide that automatically, despite what some say. Scriptures certainly don't say that.


Galatians 2:16-17: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

In Galatians 2:16-17, there are three things being talked about: Faith, law, and salvation:

Faith is a lifestyle. It’s not an event. It can be stopped.
Law is a lifestyle. It’s not an event. It can be stopped. There are two sets of laws:

Moral Law – We can live in the moral law. We can not steal, lie, murder, etc. It’s not an event; it’s a lifestyle. We have to be obedient to the commandments. You cannot be just and ignore the moral law. Luke 1:6 tells us that Elizabeth and Zechariah were both just because they obeyed God.


Ceremonial Law – has to do with the ordinances that God gave Moses on the mountain and were established when the children of Israel set up the tabernacle and the temple in Jerusalem and the people came to offer animal sacrifices.

When we see the word “law”, there’s a distinction: There’s the moral law and there is the ceremonial law. Both can be stopped. The children of Israel didn’t have to go to the temple. A male was required by the law to go down three times per year, and he could simply stop. We don’t live under the ceremonial law today. We don’t have to go down to the temple three times per year and offer animal sacrifices, but we are under the moral law.

Salvation is an event. It either happens, or it doesn’t. You either believe on the Lord Jesus and that he died on the cross for your sins, or you don’t. If you believe, you’re saved; if you don’t, you’re not.

Justification is by faith. “That we might be justified by faith.” Because justification is by faith, and faith is a lifestyle, justification will depend upon your lifestyle. Justification is not an event; it’s a process. The reason it’s a process is because it’s by faith. Faith is a process. Without faith, it’s impossible to please God. We’re going to have to please God, if we’re going to stand approved. That’s what justification is about; it’s about standing approved.

You can make shipwreck of the faith. You cannot make shipwreck of believe.

Now, I have to get back to work before I make shipwreck of my paycheck.

1. Is this a new doctrine of justification?

2. How is justification depended on us?

3. How is justification a process?

 

[Hope of Glory]

1. Is this a new doctrine of justification?

Not at all. However, most people that I run into on either side of the issue think it's an either/or situation, just like the OSAS argument. One group sees that we are justified once and for all by the finished work of Jesus on the cross, which we are. The other group sees the passages that it's an ongoing process (although the KJV doesn't always translate it as "justification"), and that it can stop, which it is and can.

Few that I have met see that it can be both, and they try to use "justification" and "salvation" synonymously, and create all sorts of Scriptural conundrums.

You have to look at all the passages in the Scriptures, especially the ones that seem contradictory. You can't pick and choose. So, when the Bible says both that it is once and for all and a process, it is either both, or the Bible lies. However, some people are willing to accept lots of contradictions. I'm not willing to accept any. God doesn't lie.

2. How is justification depended on us?

I just covered that in the previous post.

3. How is justification a process?

Salvation is an event. It either happens, or it doesn’t. You either believe on the Lord Jesus and that he died on the cross for your sins, or you don’t. If you believe, you’re saved; if you don’t, you’re not.

Justification is by faith. “That we might be justified by faith.” Because justification is by faith, and faith is a lifestyle, justification will depend upon your lifestyle. Justification is not an event; it’s a process. The reason it’s a process is because it’s by faith. Faith is a process. Without faith, it’s impossible to please God. We’re going to have to please God, if we’re going to stand approved. That’s what justification is about; it’s about standing approved.

Justification is defined in Romans 8:33 which says, “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth”. Justification means to stand unchargeable. Notice that it is God who justifieth. That’s a present, active, participle. What that means is that it’s an ongoing process. Present tense, you draw a line. It’s not an event; it’s an ongoing process. That ongoing process is sinning. When we sin, we are chargeable. When we confess that sin, what happens? We are not chargeable.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Then he went on to prove that black is white.

Then he went on to say "No it isn't!" without posting any Scripure.

 

[npetreley]

Then he went on to say "No it isn't!" without posting any Scripure.

You provided enough scripture to defeat your own conclusions. But there's no point in arguing it with you because you cite scripture and then interpret it to mean the opposite of what it says. "It is God who justifies" -- "What this scripture means is that we justify ourselves by our lifestyle."

In other words, "Black is white."

.

 

[James_Newman]

Excellent. Now tell me how we got the righteousness that we were free from, and to which we awake. Why do we yield to righteousness? To whose righteousness are we yielding?

Warning: This is the same trick question.

Let me ask you a trick question. If your righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the pharisees to enter the kingdom, how do you expect you will enter when you have no righteousness?

 

[npetreley]

Let me ask you a trick question. If your righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the pharisees to enter the kingdom, how do you expect you will enter when you have no righteousness?

That's easy, and I'm really glad you asked that question!!

The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us through faith. His righteousness exceeds anything the Pharisees could ever have. That's the only kind of righteousness we can have, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything we do. By the law no flesh is justified. Seek first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness. Whose? His. Not ours. We don't have any, and we can't make any. All we can do is wear His.

When Jesus said we had to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, He was referring to what people assumed of the Pharisees, not to any real righteousness they had. They were white-washed tombs. They appeared clean on the outside, and that's how people saw them. Jesus even sarcastically referred to them as "the righteous" (there was no need to call them, "the righteous", but only to call sinners). It's called self-righteousness. It's what you get when you focus on obedience to the law in order to justify yourself, and it leads to making up rules upon rules to make yourself feel even more self-righteous. Don't spit on the ground on the Sabbath. Don't drink. Don't smoke. Don't even appear to go near a bar or you'll lose your Christian witness. Pharisees of today.

But the point is that the Pharisees had no righteousness; they only APPEARED righteous. "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."

 

[James_Newman]

So you don't believe that a man is justified by works?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You believe that you can sin, and put on Christ's righteousness, and that is all He is looking for?

1 John 3:7-8
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

What you say is perfectly true in regard to eternal salvation, but there is practical righteousness that God requires from believers.

 

[npetreley]

So you don't believe that a man is justified by works?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You believe that you can sin, and put on Christ's righteousness, and that is all He is looking for?

1 John 3:7-8
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

What you say is perfectly true in regard to eternal salvation, but there is practical righteousness that God requires from believers.

Context, context, context. You can't just rip out that verse and claim it means we justify ourselves by works. That would make the Bible contradict itself, since by the law NO flesh shall be justified.

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

How is it we see by Abraham's faith that a man is justifed by works? That is a logical contradiction.

Abraham was not made righteous by what he did. He was imputed righteousness through faith. His obedience was an outworking of his faith, not a requirement for him to be made righteous. Abraham didn't justify himself by working. His justification was made manifest by his obedience, which was the natural outworking of faith. It's the difference between real faith and fake faith. One bears fruit, the other does not.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Again, this is talking about the evidence of whether or not you abide in Jesus. It isn't talking about doing acts of righteousness in order to become righteous. It isn't talking about commting A sin (otherwise we'd all have to say we have never seen Him nor known Him). It's about the positional difference between a believer and an unbeliever, and what motivates them.

 

[James_Newman]

Context, context, context. You can't just rip out that verse and claim it means we justify ourselves by works. That would make the Bible contradict itself, since by the law NO flesh shall be justified.



How is it we see by Abraham's faith that a man is justifed by works? That is a logical contradiction.

Abraham was not made righteous by what he did. He was imputed righteousness through faith. His obedience was an outworking of his faith, not a requirement for him to be made righteous. Abraham didn't justify himself by working. His justification was made manifest by his obedience, which was the natural outworking of faith. It's the difference between real faith and fake faith. One bears fruit, the other does not.

You must be the first man who has proved a contradiction in the bible, because it plainly says a man is justified by works.

Again, this is talking about the evidence of whether or not you abide in Jesus. It isn't talking about doing acts of righteousness in order to become righteous. It isn't talking about commting A sin (otherwise we'd all have to say we have never seen Him nor known Him). It's about the positional difference between a believer and an unbeliever, and what motivates them.

So now we finally get down to the real nitty gritty. You don't have to have works to enter the kingdom, you just have to have works to prove your really a believer in the first place.

 

[npetreley]

So now we finally get down to the real nitty gritty. You don't have to have works to enter the kingdom, you just have to have works to prove your really a believer in the first place.

Did I say that? I don't think I said that. Nope, I don't see anwhere I said that.

By the way, what was the "trick" part of your trick question. I must have missed that, too.

 

[Amy.G]

Abraham was not declared righteous because of works. I thought everyone knew that.


Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

 

[James_Newman]

Did I say that? I don't think I said that. Nope, I don't see anwhere I said that.

By the way, what was the "trick" part of your trick question. I must have missed that, too.

Oh, you didn't think my trick was tricky enough, I'll have to work on that. I'm a little slow today.

How is it we see by Abraham's faith that a man is justifed by works? That is a logical contradiction.

Abraham was not made righteous by what he did. He was imputed righteousness through faith. His obedience was an outworking of his faith, not a requirement for him to be made righteous. Abraham didn't justify himself by working. His justification was made manifest by his obedience, which was the natural outworking of faith. It's the difference between real faith and fake faith. One bears fruit, the other does not.

Here you have introduced the straw man of fake faith. We think that James would present a contradiction if we just read it normally, so we change what it says in our head. James said that a man was justified by works, but we read it to say a man that really has faith will do works, therefore if a man has not the works that he ought, it is because he has fake faith. What, can fake faith save you?

Again, this is talking about the evidence of whether or not you abide in Jesus. It isn't talking about doing acts of righteousness in order to become righteous. It isn't talking about commting A sin (otherwise we'd all have to say we have never seen Him nor known Him). It's about the positional difference between a believer and an unbeliever, and what motivates them.

Evidence of whether you abide in Jesus.
John 15:5-6
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If a man who isn't abiding in Jesus is cast into the fire and burned, explain how you think this applies to believers who do not bring forth much fruit?

 

[James_Newman]

Abraham was not declared righteous because of works. I thought everyone knew that.


Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Everyone but James, apparently.
James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?