Appointed To Eternal Life?

[JesusFan]

Okay it finally opened, this is garbage, this guy says Paul could have chosen not believe on the damascus road incident, when God sovereignly made him a apostle/believer, servant by the effectual working of His Power and Grace, Pauls own testimony Eph 3:7

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power

Now this God forsaken writer says,



No Paul wasn't forced, but he was made a new creature, the word made is ginomai:

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   1. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   1. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made

Pauls becoming a willing servant of Christ was a miracle of Gods Power and Grace. Who can choose not to be a Miracle of Gods creative power and grace ?. Did Christ consult the mutual agreement of the Christ hating saul to be made into a Christ Loving, willing servant on the road of Damascus ? No, so the writer is a false teacher worshipping the will of man !

The same Gracious effectual power that made Paul a willing believer, made the Gentiles believers in Acts 13:48,

Pauls conversion served as an example as how God causes all them to believe in Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 1:16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

No all believers arent Apostles, and their conversion may not be as dramatic as Sauls to Paul was, nevertheless, the same Divine Power and Grace gets all the Credit for the conversion to Faith in Christ.

Jesus stated that all of His apostles were chosen by Him first, so why would not the same apply to Paul then?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Christ was the sufficient sacrifice to appease the wrath of God for all of mankind not just a limited few. His sacrifice covered the sins of both those that would believe and those that would not.

False teaching, it only propitiated God for them who become believers. Anyone remaining in unbelief, Christ wasnt a propitition for them, they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Those who Christ made propitiation for will be given Faith in His Blood Rom 3:25

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Faith is the evidence of their interest in the Blood of Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

Jesus stated that all of His apostles were chosen by Him first, so why would not the same apply to Paul then?

You missing the point, and evading it

 

[DaveXR650]

Both Judas and Peter experience Conviction, but peter by the working of the Holy Spirit was repentance via godly sorrow and conviction, while judasstill chose to die in his sins

So would it be fair to say that conviction, when talking in precise theological terms is separate from regeneration? Although if talking in general of the whole process of a person being saved you might lump it all together as a set of logical steps?

I know for a fact that John Owen warned extensively on the dangers of not responding to conviction. He considered to be at some level common to all and at the level of leading to salvation a work of the Holy Spirit. But even then, he warned not to disregard it lest it be withdrawn.

 

[Rye]

Sir, you said the only English translation with disposed to that you had found was the NWT. I was simply sharing another translation with the same understanding of the message.

Fair enough. I personally try to avoid liberal translations but as John said, a broken clock can be right twice in a day.

This understanding of the verse is accepted by many scholars, some of which JOJ mentioned.

I accepted John’s response as accurate and have no reason to question the validity of the scholars he mentioned. I also know that there are other well respected Greek translators that have a different opinion.

What I have learned from all of this is that Acts 13:48 should not be the first place I should to go to prove the doctrine of unconditional election. There many other clearer verses that leave us with no doubt.

 

[Brightfame52]

So would it be fair to say that conviction, when talking in precise theological terms is separate from regeneration? Although if talking in general of the whole process of a person being saved you might lump it all together as a set of logical steps?

I know for a fact that John Owen warned extensively on the dangers of not responding to conviction. He considered to be at some level common to all and at the level of leading to salvation a work of the Holy Spirit. But even then, he warned not to disregard it lest it be withdrawn.

There is a repentance from the foundation of regeneration, and a repentance from the foundation of the flesh, from the unregenerate. The one from the foundation of regeneration, Christ as Saviour gives that Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[JesusFan]

Fair enough. I personally try to avoid liberal translations but as John said, a broken clock can be right twice in a day.



I accepted John’s response as accurate and have no reason to question the validity of the scholars he mentioned. I also know that there are other well respected Greek translators that have a different opinion.

What I have learned from all of this is that Acts 13:48 should not be the first place I should to go to prove the doctrine of unconditional election. There many other clearer verses that leave us with no doubt.

True, as it ties into election and predestination, as rooted in Particular salvation

You missing the point, and evading it

How so? As a Calvinist, do see here strong biblical evidence of Lord Jesus choosing and appointing Paul as His Gentile to ther Gentiles, based upon His will, and not due to the desire and will of Paul at that time before conversion

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Were people saved at the cross? That is what you seem to be saying.

Yes legally, sins are forgiven, and Justified before God, reconciled to God, at the Cross.

 

[Rye]

But that is not what the text say is it.

I'm letting John's usage of the word define it for me and it is to be understood, at least if you're being consistent, in a limited sense. I'm not a parent but if I go into a candy store with my kid and say, "you can get anything you want in the whole store". Am I telling him that he can literally have the store's entire supply of candy? No, obviously it is limited to how much money I have.

Just as we see in the verse you quoted "He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."

Christ was the sufficient sacrifice to appease the wrath of God for all of mankind not just a limited few. His sacrifice covered the sins of both those that would believe and those that would not.

The Greek word for "all" here is ἐφάπαξ (ephapax) and refers to time. It is for all of time, not for all of mankind. The NASB does a better job at translating this.

Hebrews 7:27 (NASB) - who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

Our High Priest {Christ Jesus} is being compared to all other High Priests. While they had to make repeated sacrifices He had only to make the one. We are told His sacrifice was sufficient for all the world to be saved through faith in Him.

Yes, repeated sacrifices had to be made in the OT and it was only for a specific people, the nation of Israel. It was not for Egypt or for anyone else. That is the picture given in Hebrews.

Were people saved at the cross? That is what you seem to be saying.

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Christ died as the propitiation for sins, and He was raised for our justification.

I agree. A person can't be justified without a propitiation.

 

[Brightfame52]

True, as it ties into election and predestination, as rooted in Particular salvation

How so? As a Calvinist, do see here strong biblical evidence of Lord Jesus choosing and appointing Paul as His Gentile to ther Gentiles, based upon His will, and not due to the desire and will of Paul at that time before conversion

What you mean how so ? Read my point and read yours duh

 

[kyredneck]

I understand it to mean believers that come out of the whole world, not every individual person in the whole world. I’ve been consistent on that.

John 17:6 - I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

The 'world' Christ is referring to is the Old Covenant 'arrangement'.

John Chapter 18

20​	Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing.

Christ came as Prophet, Priest, and King. As Prophet to Israel in her last days of the Sinai Covenant, He had nothing to say to non-Jews:

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10

Gill:
"...as a priest, or as a Saviour and Redeemer, he was sent to make satisfaction and atonement for the sins of all God's elect, and to obtain eternal redemption and salvation for all of them, whether Jews or Gentiles; but as a prophet, in the discharge of his own personal ministry, he was sent by his Father only to the Jews; he was the "minister of the circumcision", Romans 15:8..."

Paul:
8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers, Ro 15

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



False teaching, it only propitiated God for them who become believers. Anyone remaining in unbelief, Christ wasnt a propitition for them, they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Those who Christ made propitiation for will be given Faith in His Blood Rom 3:25

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Faith is the evidence of their interest in the Blood of Christ.

The fact that scripture does not agree with you does not seem to matter for you does it.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm letting John's usage of the word define it for me and it is to be understood, at least if you're being consistent, in a limited sense. I'm not a parent but if I go into a candy store with my kid and say, "you can get anything you want in the whole store". Am I telling him that he can literally have the store's entire supply of candy? No, obviously it is limited to how much money I have.

But you are not God are you. What God says He is the propitiation for the whole world do you not think He knows what He is referring to? It is obvious from the context that John is providing a contrast between the you, our and the whole world by his words "not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

But you choose not to see that as it would cause problems for your theological view.

The Greek word for "all" here is ἐφάπαξ (ephapax) and refers to time. It is for all of time, not for all of mankind. The NASB does a better job at translating this.

Hebrews 7:27 (NASB) - who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

I agree, Christ's death was sufficient to cover the sins of all men for all time. For those that would believe and for those that would reject Him.

Yes, repeated sacrifices had to be made in the OT and it was only for a specific people, the nation of Israel. It was not for Egypt or for anyone else. That is the picture given in Hebrews.

So based on what you have posted then all Jews should be saved as according to you Christ's death saved those He died for and you just indicated that He died for the Jews

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The is what we see in the rest of scripture. His death on the cross healed the rift between man and his God. God could now be merciful to those that trusted in His risen son. Because of the cross our sins are covered because of our faith in Him we are saved.

I agree. A person can't be justified without a propitiation.

Propitiation does not save us but it is a necessary step in the salvation process.
As Paul said "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." 1Co 15:17

 

[Brightfame52]

The fact that scripture does not agree with you does not seem to matter for you does it.

Its simple, the ones Christ is a propitiation for, they shall live by faith, be given Faith in His Blood, consequently, folk who never come to live by faith, He didnt die for them, they were not Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And His Sheep who werent yet believers, shall become believers Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Shall believe is a future active participle, its certain they shall believe, because they are His Sheep

 

[Rye]

But you are not God are you. What God says He is the propitiation for the whole world do you not think He knows what He is referring to? It is obvious from the context that John is providing a contrast between the you, our and the whole world by his words "not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

You're right, I'm not God. Neither of us are. All we have to go on is His written Word. In context, I see "world" used in a limited way because that's the consistent way John uses "world" in other places. I also see other context clues that John is only speaking of believers when he uses words such as "yours" and "ours".

But you choose not to see that as it would cause problems for your theological view.

I don't get to arbitrarily say that a word means this in one place and something different in another place, otherwise I'm going to end up in a mishmash of contradiction and then I get to make scripture fit together in any way I want to. That's how church splits happen.

I agree, Christ's death was sufficient to cover the sins of all men for all time. For those that would believe and for those that would reject Him.

I thoroughly disagree but we don't need to keep beating that dead horse.

So based on what you have posted then all Jews should be saved as according to you Christ's death saved those He died for and you just indicated that He died for the Jews

I'm sorry, that isn't what I was saying at all. The author of Hebrews is contrasting the old covenant with the new covenant. Just like a sacrifice was made for only a select group of people in the old, such is the case with the sacrifice made in the new and it includes both Jews and Gentiles.

The is what we see in the rest of scripture. His death on the cross healed the rift between man and his God. God could now be merciful to those that trusted in His risen son. Because of the cross our sins are covered because of our faith in Him we are saved.

Agreed.

Propitiation does not save us but it is a necessary step in the salvation process.

It is necessary that those Christ propitiated for will come to saving faith.

 

[Silverhair]

Its simple, the ones Christ is a propitiation for, they shall live by faith, be given Faith in His Blood, consequently, folk who never come to live by faith, He didnt die for them, they were not Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And His Sheep who werent yet believers, shall become believers Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Shall believe is a future active participle, its certain they shall believe, because they are His Sheep

You do have an interesting way of understanding scripture. But cherry picking verses is just what we see all the cults do and we know that what they teach is false.

But then again you are the one that JoJ that he was unteachable when he pointed out your errors.

You are fun to read as it is always amusing to see how badly you can mangle the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

You're right, I'm not God. Neither of us are. All we have to go on is His written Word. In context, I see "world" used in a limited way because that's the consistent way John uses "world" in other places. I also see other context clues that John is only speaking of believers when he uses words such as "yours" and "ours".

That is why I keep saying that we have to look at the context. According to Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology the biblical concept of world falls into five categories: physical, human, moral, temporal, and the coming world. Into which category would you place 1 Jn 2:2? And why?

I don't get to arbitrarily say that a word means this in one place and something different in another place, otherwise I'm going to end up in a mishmash of contradiction and then I get to make scripture fit together in any way I want to. That's how church splits happen.

Context does inform us of how we are to understand the word. That is why we are to read verses in context as to do otherwise can lead to all kinds of problems.

I'm sorry, that isn't what I was saying at all. The author of Hebrews is contrasting the old covenant with the new covenant. Just like a sacrifice was made for only a select group of people in the old, such is the case with the sacrifice made in the new and it includes both Jews and Gentiles.

Where the sacrifices in the OT were indeed exclusive {for the Jews only} the death/propitiation of Christ was inclusive {for the whole world}. This fits in with the expressed desire of God:
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

Or are you saying that God the Father and God the Son have conflicting desires?

It is necessary that those Christ propitiated for will come to saving faith.

Just as the bible says He is the propitiation for all, both those that receive Him and those that reject Him.

2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Brightfame52]

You do have an interesting way of understanding scripture. But cherry picking verses is just what we see all the cults do and we know that what they teach is false.

But then again you are the one that JoJ that he was unteachable when he pointed out your errors.

You are fun to read as it is always amusing to see how badly you can mangle the word of God.

You are resisting the Truth