Appointed To Eternal Life?

[Rye]

TLB
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and rejoiced in Paul’s message; and as many as wanted eternal life, believed.

Brother Van, The Living Bible is a paraphrastic translation and is not recommend to be used for serious study. By the way, they also included in a footnote, “were disposed to,” or “were ordained to” as possible alternative readings. Further, the New Living Translation, a revision of TLB, updates Acts 13:48 to “all who were chosen”.


Would you mind pointing me to any respected Greek scholar who has translated “tetagmenoi/tasso” as “as many as wanted”?

 

[Rye]

Yes he is writing to believers but then he also includes the whole world or do you think "whole world" has a different meaning?

I understand it to mean believers that come out of the whole world, not every individual person in the whole world. I’ve been consistent on that.

John 17:6 - I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Where you error is in your understanding of what propitiation means. It does not means that Christ by His death on the cross has saved anyone. The bible is clear that we are only saved by the grace of God through faith.

It is vital to understand that the Book of Hebrews is contrasted with Leviticus. The priest would set before the Lord propitiatory offerings for the nation of Israel, not anybody else. Jesus, the High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, offers a similar sacrifice except this one doesn’t need to be repeated over and over again. The texts indicate that the atonement actually accomplished its purpose and it was for a specific people in mind.

Hebrews 7:27 - Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Is unbelief a sin, yes. And just like any other sin it is only forgiven when the person places their trust/faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

Either the atonement accomplished its purpose or it didn’t. If a person chooses to reject Christ, that means that He tried to atone for that person but failed. It is eisegesis to try to make these texts only a potentiality.

1Co 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Christ had to die and be raised as a propitiation for sins for faith to be effective at all.

 

[Brightfame52]

Look again. John 16 specifically says that the conviction comes to those who do not believe, not as part of regeneration: "Of sin, because they believe not on me" (v. 9). So you can't properly say that conviction comes as part of regeneration. I'm open to Scriptural proof, but you don't provide any, you just make bald statements we are supposed to agree with.

And making conviction part of regeneration is a non-starter. The definitions of the words (Greek and English) are completely different. So, any actual Scripture to prove your point. or even a quote from a reputable theologian that says conviction is part of regeneration?


I already dealt with v. 48, and you have not answered my point that if it is passive, what is the agent?

Is this the best you can do? This is typical average Calvinism. I have lots to do, so unless you can come up with some real meat I have to go. I'll check in the morning to see if you have any theology to offer (instead of bald, unproven statements).

Again Jn 16:8-10 is highlighting the Spirits work in the New Birth, it has nothing to do with the world in General Jn 14:16-17

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he
dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

When the Holy Spirit does His work, a person will be delivered from unbelief Jn 16:9

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

One will never believe without regeneration by the Spirit

 

[Brightfame52]

Brother Van, The Living Bible is a paraphrastic translation and is not recommend to be used for serious study. By the way, they also included in a footnote, “were disposed to,” or “were ordained to” as possible alternative readings. Further, the New Living Translation, a revision of TLB, updates Acts 13:48 to “all who were chosen”.


Would you mind pointing me to any respected Greek scholar who has translated “tetagmenoi/tasso” as “as many as wanted”?

Even if a person truly wanted eternal life, its a holy desire created in one who has been born again. Man by nature does
not seek after God nor the things of God Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That word seeketh ekzeteo means:

To seek out, to search diligently, to inquire earnestly.
Meaning: I seek out, seek out after, require.
to seek out for oneself, beg, crave:

Word Origin: From the preposition ἐκ (ek, meaning "out of" or "from") and ζητέω (zeteo, meaning "to seek" or "to search for").

And this kinda seeking is with Faith, its the same word here Heb 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

Now man by nature cannot and does not seek God. So the Gentiles in Acts 13:48 were born again, seeking God, and God rewarded them with Gospel Preachers

However even with that, the person never appointed himself to eternal life, he had been appointed to eternal life, thus having created in him righteous desires for God. The appointment was external of the subject and not from the internal

Barnes writes:

There has been much difference of opinion in regard to this expression. One class of commentators has supposed that it refers to the doctrine of election - to God's ordaining people to eternal life, and another class to their being disposed themselves to embrace the gospel - to those among them who did not reject and despise the gospel, but who were disposed and inclined to embrace it. The main inquiry is, what is the meaning of the word rendered "ordained"? The word is used only eight times in the New Testament: Matthew 28:16, "Into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them"; that is, previously appointed - before his death; Luke 7:8, "For I also am a man set under authority"; appointed, or designated as a soldier, to be under the authority of another; Acts 15:2, "They determined that Paul and Barnabas, etc., should go to Jerusalem"; Acts 22:10, "It shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do"; Acts 23:23, "And when they appointed him a day," etc.: Romans 13:1, "the powers that be are ordained of God; 1 Corinthians 16:15, They have addicted themselves to the ministry of saints." The word τάσσω tassō, properly means "to place" - that is, to place in a certain rank or order. Its meaning is derived from arranging or disposing a body of soldiers in regular military order. In the places which have been mentioned above, the word is used to denote the following things:

(1) To command, or to designate, Matthew 28:16; Acts 22:10; Acts 28:23.

(2) to institute, constitute, or appoint, Romans 13:1; compare 2 Samuel 8:11; 1 Samuel 22:7.

(3) to determine, to take counsel, to resolve, Acts 15:2.

(4) to subject to the authority of another, Luke 7:8.

(5) to addict to; to devote to, 1 Corinthians 16:15. The meaning may be thus expressed:

(1) The word is never used to denote an internal disposition or inclination arising from one's own self. It does not mean that they disposed themselves to embrace eternal life.

(2) it has uniformly the notion of an ordering, disposing, or arranging from without; that is, from some other source than the individual himself; as of a soldier, who is arranged or classified according to the will of the proper officer. In relation to these persons it means, therefore, that they were disposed or inclined to this from some other source than themselves.

(3) it does not properly refer to an eternal decree, or directly to the doctrine of election - though that may be inferred from it; but it refers to their being then in fact disposed to embrace eternal life. They were then inclined by an influence from without themselves, or so disposed as to embrace eternal life. That this was done by the influence of the Holy Spirit is clear from all parts of the New Testament, Titus 3:5-6; John 1:13. It was not a disposition or arrangement originating with themselves, but with God.

 

[John of Japan]

Again Jn 16:8-10 is highlighting the Spirits work in the New Birth, it has nothing to do with the world in General Jn 14:16

But it says "the world" in v. 16. How can it have "nothing to do with the world in General (sic)" if it says "the world"?

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he
dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

When the Holy Spirit does His work, a person will be delivered from unbelief Jn 16:9

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

One will never believe without regeneration by the Spirit

Yes, I know you think that. But you have yet to prove that conviction is a part of regeneration.

"Reprove" in v. 8 is the Greek elegko (ἐλεγκω), "(1) in the NT, generally as showing someone that he has done something wrong and summoning him to repent bring to light, expose (JN 3.20)" (Friberg, Friberg, Miller). How in the world do you make that part of regeneration? Can you tell me of a theologian who agrees with you?

"Regeneration" in Titus 3:5 is anakainoseos (ἀνακαινώσεως), "figuratively in the NT, as the action by which a person becomes spiritually new and different renewing, renewal" (Ibid.). How does that possibly encompass conviction of sin, which is logically necessary before salvation and separate from it?

 

[Brightfame52]

@John of Japan

Yes, I know you think that. But you have yet to prove that conviction is a part of regeneration.

You arent teachable, so it cant be proven to you except God makes you teachable. You have been very opposing to truth already shared.

 

[Van]

Brother Van, The Living Bible is a paraphrastic translation and is not recommend to be used for serious study. By the way, they also included in a footnote, “were disposed to,” or “were ordained to” as possible alternative readings. Further, the New Living Translation, a revision of TLB, updates Acts 13:48 to “all who were chosen”.

Would you mind pointing me to any respected Greek scholar who has translated “tetagmenoi/tasso” as “as many as wanted”?

Sir, you said the only English translation with disposed to that you had found was the NWT. I was simply sharing another translation with the same understanding of the message. And guess what, you still deny that the view is consistent with every usage of tasso in scripture. Nuff said.

Again tasso indicates an arrangement by mutual agreement. Paul gave the direction, the "where to go" or the "what to do" direction. That was Paul "acting upon" the audience, thus a passive verb form is consistent with the meaning of the verse. As many of the audience that "agreed to" or accepted" or "disposed themselves to" the direction (acting upon themselves, middle voice) believed (or took the direction.

This understanding of the verse is accepted by many scholars, some of which JOJ mentioned.

 

[Van]

Here is just one of many links to the "mutual consent" view of tasso.

Does Acts 13:48 teach Unconditional Election?​

 

[Brightfame52]

Here is just one of many links to the "mutual consent" view of tasso.

Does Acts 13:48 teach Unconditional Election?​

That link doesnt work, I want to see how the writer perverted the word tasso

 

[Van]

That link doesnt work, I want to see how the writer perverted the word tasso

I clicked on your repost of the link and it still worked. Calvinism perverted the word tasso and redefined it as tithēmi. Not how it reads.

 

[JesusFan]

Look again. John 16 specifically says that the conviction comes to those who do not believe, not as part of regeneration: "Of sin, because they believe not on me" (v. 9). So you can't properly say that conviction comes as part of regeneration. I'm open to Scriptural proof, but you don't provide any, you just make bald statements we are supposed to agree with.

And making conviction part of regeneration is a non-starter. The definitions of the words (Greek and English) are completely different. So, any actual Scripture to prove your point. or even a quote from a reputable theologian that says conviction is part of regeneration?


I already dealt with v. 48, and you have not answered my point that if it is passive, what is the agent?

Is this the best you can do? This is typical average Calvinism. I have lots to do, so unless you can come up with some real meat I have to go. I'll check in the morning to see if you have any theology to offer (instead of bald, unproven statements).

This discussion would seem to be falling back under 2 questions regarding the divide between Calvinists and Non Calvinist in regards to sotierology proper

Do we first exercise inherit saving faith and then e unto salvation and eternal life, or else the Holy Spirit first regenerates lost sinners first by giving and enabling in them saving faith?

Also, has God provided sufficient saving grace towards all sinners, or else is it intended for a specific group, His chosen elect?

Was it specific particular salvation, or a geral one made and proved for all lost sinners then?

 

[JesusFan]

Brother Van, The Living Bible is a paraphrastic translation and is not recommend to be used for serious study. By the way, they also included in a footnote, “were disposed to,” or “were ordained to” as possible alternative readings. Further, the New Living Translation, a revision of TLB, updates Acts 13:48 to “all who were chosen”.


Would you mind pointing me to any respected Greek scholar who has translated “tetagmenoi/tasso” as “as many as wanted”?

Per the scriptures, if left to our own device, none of us would have desired nor wanted to even get saved

 

[Van]

Per the scriptures, if left to our own device, none of us would have desired nor wanted to even get saved

On and on folks, they post a false claim, and when that one is debunked, they change the subject and post another false claim. Here unconditional election is debunked, and so total spiritual inability is hoisted as a smoke screed. This is all they have.

 

[JesusFan]

On and on folks, they post a false claim, and when that one is debunked, they change the subject and post another false claim. Here unconditional election is debunked, and so total spiritual inability is hoisted as a smoke screed. This is all they have.

We have the gospel as explained by Paul under Pauline Justification, as well as Isaiah and Peter stating that like sheep all have gone atray not one seeking after God

 

[Silverhair]

I understand it to mean believers that come out of the whole world, not every individual person in the whole world. I’ve been consistent on that.

But that is not what the text say is it.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Do you not see the contrast. You are reading into the text what you want to find so as to fit your theological view. That is eisegesis.

Hebrews 7:27 - Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Just as we see in the verse you quoted "He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."

Christ was the sufficient sacrifice to appease the wrath of God for all of mankind not just a limited few. His sacrifice covered the sins of both those that would believe and those that would not.

Our High Priest {Christ Jesus} is being compared to all other High Priests. While they had to make repeated sacrifices He had only to make the one. We are told His sacrifice was sufficient for all the world to be saved through faith in Him.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Either the atonement accomplished its purpose or it didn’t. If a person chooses to reject Christ, that means that He tried to atone for that person but failed. It is eisegesis to try to make these texts only a potentiality.

The atonement/propitiation accomplished just what it was meant to do. The blood of Christ appeased the wrath of God so that the Father would be disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings upon those that freely trusted in His son.

Were people saved at the cross? That is what you seem to be saying.

Christ had to die and be raised as a propitiation for sins for faith to be effective at all.

Your comment is rather confusing.

Christ died as the propitiation for sins, and He was raised for our justification.

 

[John of Japan]

This discussion would seem to be falling back under 2 questions regarding the divide between Calvinists and Non Calvinist in regards to sotierology proper

Do we first exercise inherit saving faith and then e unto salvation and eternal life, or else the Holy Spirit first regenerates lost sinners first by giving and enabling in them saving faith?

Also, has God provided sufficient saving grace towards all sinners, or else is it intended for a specific group, His chosen elect?

Was it specific particular salvation, or a geral one made and proved for all lost sinners then?

This doesn't appear to answer my Biblical points, which are that Scripture separates between conviction and regeneration, and conviction is to all the world.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, I know you think that. But you have yet to prove that conviction is a part of regeneration.

This is a good question and I would like to see it answered. The charge that one posing the question is not teachable is not an answer.

 

[JesusFan]

This doesn't appear to answer my Biblical points, which are that Scripture separates between conviction and regeneration, and conviction is to all the world.

The Holy Spirit can convict all of being sinners in need of grace, but unless He then proceeds to regenerate them unto repentance and granting saving faith, one still ends up like a Judas did, as one can have conviction, but not godly repentance and turning to the Lord Jesus to save them still

 

[JesusFan]

This is a good question and I would like to see it answered. The charge that one posing the question is not teachable is not an answer.

Both Judas and Peter experience Conviction, but peter by the working of the Holy Spirit was repentance via godly sorrow and conviction, while judasstill chose to die in his sins

 

[Brightfame52]

I clicked on your repost of the link and it still worked. Calvinism perverted the word tasso and redefined it as tithēmi. Not how it reads.

Okay it finally opened, this is garbage, this guy says Paul could have chosen not believe on the damascus road incident, when God sovereignly made him a apostle/believer, servant by the effectual working of His Power and Grace, Pauls own testimony Eph 3:7

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power

Now this God forsaken writer says,

Though God organized and commissioned the events on the Damascus Road which led to Paul’s conversion, Paul was not forced to believe and could have chosen otherwise. So also with those who believe in Acts 13:48. Paul, as a servant of God, was sent by God to preach to the Gentiles in Antioch.

No Paul wasn't forced, but he was made a new creature, the word made is ginomai:

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   1. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   1. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made

Pauls becoming a willing servant of Christ was a miracle of Gods Power and Grace. Who can choose not to be a Miracle of Gods creative power and grace ?. Did Christ consult the mutual agreement of the Christ hating saul to be made into a Christ Loving, willing servant on the road of Damascus ? No, so the writer is a false teacher worshipping the will of man !

The same Gracious effectual power that made Paul a willing believer, made the Gentiles believers in Acts 13:48,

Pauls conversion served as an example as how God causes all them to believe in Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 1:16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

No all believers arent Apostles, and their conversion may not be as dramatic as Sauls to Paul was, nevertheless, the same Divine Power and Grace gets all the Credit for the conversion to Faith in Christ.