Are Adam/Eve in Heaven?

[MB]

MB, yes OT saints were saved because Christ paid the penalty but they were saved by faith, just as NT saints are. Jesus was slain "from the foundation of the world" so it applied to OT people who believed in God.



The meaning of "hell" that you cite means the grave. He has hope in God that he will not be left in the grave. This was also a prophecy of Jesus being resurrected.

As for Eph. 4:10, "descended" clearly refers to Christ descending from heaven; it is contrasted with "ascended" - the ascension into heaven after his resurrection. Jesus talks in John constantly have God having "sent" Him. Christ descended from above to earth in the incarnation.

I'm not going by the book of Nicodemus because it's not God's word so I'm not going to take it as such. God's word is sufficient for explaining the above.

So you agree with the Roman Catholic Church that what they determined to be canonical is and all the rest are not. I admit that some of the Apocrypha are not inspiried by God. How ever the they also eliminated the book of Enoch
There is no Salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
Yes I assume most were saved that believed but only after they learned the path to Christ just as David says in Psalms.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

If David were already saved then why did he need to know the path of life. Didn't he already know it.

I find it intresting that the book of Enoch was eliminated from the Bible by Catholics. When his prophecies are mentioned in ; Read on then determine if you want to trust Catholics to do what is right.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

If men were being saved before Christ there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross. The blood of bulls goats and sheep do not save. Only Christ can save, and then only after the cross. With out the atonement no one could be saved. This is why Christ paid for our sins.

Comentaties will tell you that:
"The Holy Spirit, by Jude, has sealed the truth of this much of the matter contained in the book of Enoch, though probably that book, as well as Jude, derived it from tradition".
The entire Bible has come to us through tradition.
"MB

 

[Marcia]

So you agree with the Roman Catholic Church that what they determined to be canonical is and all the rest are not. I admit that some of the Apocrypha are not inspiried by God. How ever the they also eliminated the book of Enoch

What??? It has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church. The determination of the canon was not so much a determination as a discovery of what God had given already as his word. The canon was used by the early church as scripture and had apostolic authority.

On a side note: Do you realize that the teachings of the RC church that departed from scripture did not come about until several hundred years after Christ - mostly starting in the 10th century or so?


How do you determine what is God's word and what is not? I am truly interested to know. On what standard do you base this decision?

There is no Salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
Yes I assume most were saved that believed but only after they learned the path to Christ just as David says in Psalms.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

If David were already saved then why did he need to know the path of life. Didn't he already know it.

I don't think we can assume this means that David did not know the path of life but was asking God to keep Him on it. You are reading too much into this. Is this it for basing your view that David was not saved?

David ends on a very uplifting note plus he says:
5The LORD is the (I)portion of my inheritance and my (J)cup;
You support my (K)lot.
6The (L)lines have fallen to me in pleasant places;
Indeed, my heritage is (M)beautiful to me.
7I will bless the LORD who has (N)counseled me;
Indeed, my (O)mind instructs me in the night.
8(P)I have (Q)set the LORD continually before me;

I find it intresting that the book of Enoch was eliminated from the Bible by Catholics. When his prophecies are mentioned in ; Read on then determine if you want to trust Catholics to do what is right.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

I strongly suggest you get a good book on how the canon was formed such as From God to Us: How We Got Our Bible by Norman Geisler.

Just because Enoch is mentioned in Jude does not mean that the book of Enoch is canonical! That is illogical.

If men were being saved before Christ there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross. The blood of bulls goats and sheep do not save. Only Christ can save, and then only after the cross. With out the atonement no one could be saved. This is why Christ paid for our sins

.

Are you a new believer? If so, I can understand your confusion on this, but it is clear that men in the OT were saved. Abraham is referred to as having been justified as righteous through his faith in several places, OT and NT. It is faith that justifies - the blood of Christ was applied to them although Christ had not yet incarnated.

Comentaties will tell you that:
"The Holy Spirit, by Jude, has sealed the truth of this much of the matter contained in the book of Enoch, though probably that book, as well as Jude, derived it from tradition".
The entire Bible has come to us through tradition.

MB, please tell me how you know what is God's word and what is not.

 

[Lukasaurus]

For a while there I wondered about Enoch as well. It aligns with my beliefs about Genesis 6 (fallen angels have relations with human women and produce giants), and a few other things.

However, there are some absolutely insane claims in there. The book of enoch claims that the giants were over 400 feet tall! Goliath was only about 12 feet tall. Enoch definitely said what Jude quoted him as saying, but I doubt Jude is quoting from the book of enoch (even though that quote appears in the first chapter). There are many other things wrong with the book of enoch.

 

[Marcia]

For a while there I wondered about Enoch as well. It aligns with my beliefs about Genesis 6 (fallen angels have relations with human women and produce giants), and a few other things.

Not to mention, that we don't decide that Enoch is God's word based on our beliefs. There are about 4 different views of this Gen 6 passage among orthodox Christians.

I'm glad you don't take Enoch as God's word!

I bet a lot of people don't know that the book of Enoch is used by occult practitioners.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not to mention, that we don't decide that Enoch is God's word based on our beliefs. There are about 4 different views of this Gen 6 passage among orthodox Christians.

I'm glad you don't take Enoch as God's word!

I bet a lot of people don't know that the book of Enoch is used by occult practitioners.

There is a reason that it is considered Pseudopigraphia. On the other hand, what was Jude thinking?

Do you buy into the thought that the sons of God were sons of Seth rather than angels?

 

[Marcia]

There is a reason that it is considered Pseudopigraphia. On the other hand, what was Jude thinking?

It's okay for Jude to quote Enoch; this was done under the Holy Spirit's inspiration so this statement is true. But this in no way endorses the book of Enoch. Even Paul quoted pagan poets.

Do you buy into the thought that the sons of God were sons of Seth rather than angels?

Hmmm...."buy into?" A rather disparaging way to put it, no?

I think it's a valid view. At the moment, I am not entirely convinced as to which view is correct but I lean towards this one.

I will say this -- I don't think this passage is that important for any crucial doctrine (or even minor one) and I am astonished at how significant some people take it. People build up whole theologies on it! I come across it all the time in my ministry.

 

[Lukasaurus]

It's an essential doctrine like the Gap, and the great deep. If you don't believe it you just don't believe the Bible.

I'm going to guess that people are going to look at my avatar, and be entirely uncertain as to whether I am being sarcastic or not.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It's okay for Jude to quote Enoch; this was done under the Holy Spirit's inspiration so this statement is true. But this in no way endorses the book of Enoch. Even Paul quoted pagan poets.




Hmmm...."buy into?" A rather disparaging way to put it, no?

I think it's a valid view. At the moment, I am not entirely convinced as to which view is correct but I lean towards this one.

I will say this -- I don't think this passage is that important for any crucial doctrine (or even minor one) and I am astonished at how significant some people take it. People build up whole theologies on it! I come across it all the time in my ministry.

Your right. I don't know either.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It's an essential doctrine like the Gap, and the great deep. If you don't believe it you just don't believe the Bible.

I'm going to guess that people are going to look at my avatar, and be entirely uncertain as to whether I am being sarcastic or not.

Are you?

The Gap? Perfect earth Genesis 1:1 Satan fall and destruction of the earth Genesis 1:2? Is that what you're talking about (Dispensationalist!!!!). What in the world is the Great Deep?

 

[Jim1999]

I quote Shakespeare, Milton and Dickens all the time. This doesn't make it biblical or inspired.

Generally when we talked about the inspired word of God, we refer to the original manuscripts. So far as we know, these are lost.

We accept the canon of scripture, the books we currently call the Bible. Even some of these books have come under question by leading theologians and churchmen.

Please don't equate the early church fathers with the current Church of Rome; they don't compare at all.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Lukasaurus]

I was being sarcastic. I don't believe in the gap, but I do believe in the Great Deep (although most gappers would tell me that's impossible, because if I don't believe in the gap, then where does the great deep fit in. I could explain how it all relates and bring up Bible verses and so on, but I can't be bothered, because I think the simple reading of Genesis 1 is the most sensible).

I will explain the great deep though.

It is a vast body of water (maybe frozen) that surrounds the universe. At one stage, the earth was immersed in it (Genesis 1:2), until God seperated the waters, and made a space in the midst of the waters. God's throne is beyond the great deep, on the otherside of it. Satan communicates with God through the waters.

I'm not going to go over the scriptures, except for one. You can then take the initiative to study it out more if you want.

Here is a verse, I will try to explain my beliefs on this

But first,

Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

We see here that the deep can also refer to the sea, or the ocean. Most of the time, this is the direct meaning.

If you remember the man infested by the devils who called themselves Legion, the devils said to Jesus something interesting

Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

They are standing by the ocean/sea and they say "don't send us into the deep". First thoughts are that they don't want to go into the ocean, for whatever reason. They also ask Him if He has come to torment them before the appointed time. How they would be tormented in the small sea is beyond me, but oh well, I'll bring it together in a second.

So the devils go into the pigs, and the first thing they do is run down the hill INTO THE SEA! But the devils just said they didn't want to go there. So they can't be talking about the sea. Which brings us to the OTHER deep - the expanse of water that seperates our universe from God's firmament of power. According to some verses in Job, it would seem that Satan communicates to God through this expanse of water, which is described as being like a glass (crystal sea perhaps...). Those devils didn't want to go there, before God the Father, who they had rebelled against, because they would have been judged before the time appointed (Great White Throne Judgment, when saints judge angels).

 

[Jim1999]

The King James Bible is the perfect, innerrant, inspired, infallible, everlasting word of God. It is SCRIPTURE
---------------------------------------

It should read Bible: The King James Version. If it is so "inerrant" why are there so many errors? Why does it include dinasaurs, which everyone seems to claim didn't exist?

This declaration almost negates anything you have to offer, to my way of thinking. Sorry!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Lukasaurus]

Who claims dinosaurs didn't exist?

We can take this to email, because all my threads tend to get closed.

Show me an error.

So you are willing to discard everything I say because I believe the King James Bible is the perfect word of God. Fine. I disregard everything you say because you don't. Amen amen.

Please show me an error.

EDIT: I only added that to my sig about 30 minutes ago. People just can't help themselves can they! As soon as someone claims the Bible is perfect, it's battle stations!

 

[Marcia]

It's an essential doctrine like the Gap, and the great deep. If you don't believe it you just don't believe the Bible.

I'm going to guess that people are going to look at my avatar, and be entirely uncertain as to whether I am being sarcastic or not.

Whom are you addressing? What is an essential doctrine?

You need to be more clear in your post.

Btw, I couldn't care less about your avatar. It doesn't make me wonder anything because I don't know or care who it is. So no worries there.

 

[Allan]

The King James Bible is the perfect, innerrant, inspired, infallible, everlasting word of God. It is SCRIPTURE
---------------------------------------

The King James Version.. (snip) ..Why does it include dinasaurs, which everyone seems to claim didn't exist?

Who "seems to claims they didn't exist?"

Scripture delcares they did exist and with humans no less.

 

[Allan]

Who claims dinosaurs didn't exist?

We can take this to email, because all my threads tend to get closed.

Show me an error.

So you are willing to discard everything I say because I believe the King James Bible is the perfect word of God. Fine. I disregard everything you say because you don't. Amen amen.

Please show me an error.

EDIT: I only added that to my sig about 30 minutes ago. People just can't help themselves can they! As soon as someone claims the Bible is perfect, it's battle stations!

The gap theory is not an essential doctrine nor has it ever been but I'm not sure by about 'the deep' aspect you refered to. What is that? I might know it but off the top of my head I don't remember anything concerning it.

 

[Aaron]

Have always assumed it, but a friend pointed out that Abel is the first "righteous" person mentioned in the Bible (and Heb 11 list - creation in 11:3, then Abel 11:4 - no mention of A&E)

So I'd like to think this through biblically and not just what we've always assumed.

Tanks. :godisgood:

Getting this thread back on track . . .
Heb. 6:4-6 tells me that once spiritual life is lost, one cannot get it back. Neither Adam nor Eve are held up as examples of faith or of those who've repented.

 

[sag38]

There's a great deep alright but it's not in the waters where the net was dipped.

 

[skypair]

Heb. 6:4-6 tells me that once spiritual life is lost, one cannot get it back. Neither Adam nor Eve are held up as examples of faith or of those who've repented.

That is a common reading, but incorrect. Lose your salvation? No.

What it speaks about is apostacy. Say I received Christ and then returned to Catholicism. 6:7-8 compares such an one to a plant that receives the rain from God but, instead of returning fruit, returns thorns (gospel of works and life of self-salvation).

And the part that says "is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned" equates to "deliver such an one over to Satan for the distruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved in the day of Christ." 1Cor 5:5 Basically, the church does this, it seems apparent in 2Cor 2:8, by "excommunicating" the apostate.

And in the specific case of one returning to Catholicism, say -- he's already saved so it is impossible to "resave" him and it is a "shame" to Christ to do so as if losing salvation was something that could happen to any believer.

The proper remedy for apostacy is repentance (2Cor 7:8-11) and readmission to the body, 2Cor 2:5-11.

skypair

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I was being sarcastic. I don't believe in the gap, but I do believe in the Great Deep (although most gappers would tell me that's impossible, because if I don't believe in the gap, then where does the great deep fit in. I could explain how it all relates and bring up Bible verses and so on, but I can't be bothered, because I think the simple reading of Genesis 1 is the most sensible).

I will explain the great deep though.

It is a vast body of water (maybe frozen) that surrounds the universe. At one stage, the earth was immersed in it (Genesis 1:2), until God seperated the waters, and made a space in the midst of the waters. God's throne is beyond the great deep, on the otherside of it. Satan communicates with God through the waters.

I'm not going to go over the scriptures, except for one. You can then take the initiative to study it out more if you want.

Here is a verse, I will try to explain my beliefs on this

But first,

Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

We see here that the deep can also refer to the sea, or the ocean. Most of the time, this is the direct meaning.

If you remember the man infested by the devils who called themselves Legion, the devils said to Jesus something interesting

Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

They are standing by the ocean/sea and they say "don't send us into the deep". First thoughts are that they don't want to go into the ocean, for whatever reason. They also ask Him if He has come to torment them before the appointed time. How they would be tormented in the small sea is beyond me, but oh well, I'll bring it together in a second.

So the devils go into the pigs, and the first thing they do is run down the hill INTO THE SEA! But the devils just said they didn't want to go there. So they can't be talking about the sea. Which brings us to the OTHER deep - the expanse of water that seperates our universe from God's firmament of power. According to some verses in Job, it would seem that Satan communicates to God through this expanse of water, which is described as being like a glass (crystal sea perhaps...). Those devils didn't want to go there, before God the Father, who they had rebelled against, because they would have been judged before the time appointed (Great White Throne Judgment, when saints judge angels).

That sounds a little like the Greeks view of Ocean. the vast river of water that surrounds the world. And if Satan speaks to God through the waters then is that like the River Styxx? I getwhat you mean about the thought of the Great Deep though I use to think that the earth had an Ice Sheild before the flood. because God seperated the waters above from those below and a firmament was made in between (sky). Then I thought the flood would then make sence because imagine if the Ice sheild collapsed it would cast cloud cover over the planet change the barametric preasure causing the waters under the ground to come up and allow the suns radiation to corrupt our longevity and be enough water to flood the earth sending large sheets of Ice into the solar system some which fell on Mars creating its polar caps as well as short lived shallow oceans. Also creating a marginal atmospher on the planet.