Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?

[Yeshua1]

Are we all in a position of being judged and condemned before or only after rejecting jesus as messiah/Lord?

 

[HisWitness]

Are we all in a position of being judged and condemned before or only after rejecting jesus as messiah/Lord?

scripture tells you that MANY(ALL) were made sinners through Adam--even though they did not sin after Adam's transgression.
Their actions did not make them sinners 1 Man's Sin made ALL sinners--even though ALL men do sin.

 

[Soulman]

The bible teaches that we are condemned already. " Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Prior to believing we are condemned. That is why we must be saved. A person not in trouble has no need to be saved.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

scripture tells you that MANY(ALL) were made sinners through Adam--

It does not...(at least not in this passage) it said they DIED, not were made sinners:

even though they did not sin after Adam's transgression.
Their actions did not make them sinners 1 Man's Sin made ALL sinners--even though ALL men do sin

Their actions DO indeed make them sinners read vs. 12 and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: notice it says that "Death" is what passed, not "Sin"...and "Death" passed "for that all have sinned".
The same passage also says in direct parrallel that ALL (MANY) are also made ALIVE in Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Reading Original Guilt into this passage forces you to also read Universalism into that same passage.
It isn't Scripture that tells us that here....it is the WCF.

 

[Aaron]

Death is the wages of sin.

 

[salzer mtn]

12Wherefore , as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned : 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come . 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.16And not as it was by one that sinned , so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reignin life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.20Moreover the law entered , that the offence might abound . But where sin abounded , grace did much more abound : 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. IN THESE VERSES THE SCRIPTURE IS SPEAKING OF LIFE AND DEATH. IS IT SPEAKING OF NATURAL DEATH OR IS IT SPEAKING OF SPIRITUAL DEATH ? BY THE CONTENTS I BELIEVE IT IS SPEAKING OF SPIRITUAL DEATH BECAUSE WITHOUT ANY DOUBT IT IS SPEAKING OF SPIRITUAL LIFE BY CHRIST IN THESE PASSAGES, WHICH WOULD BE THE OPPOSITE OF SPIRITUAL DEATH. VERSES EIGHTEEN AND NINETEEN ARE VERY CLEAR AS TO THE THE WHOLE. THEREFORE BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE ( adam) JUDGEMENT CAME UPON ALL MEN TO CONDEMNATION; EVEN SO THE RIGHTEOUSS OF ONE ( Christ) THE FREE GIFT CAME UPON ALL MEN TO JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE. FOR AS BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, SO BY THE OBEDIENCE OF ONE SHALL MANY BE MADE RIGHTEOUS.

 

[webdog]

The bible teaches that we are condemned already. " Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Prior to believing we are condemned. That is why we must be saved. A person not in trouble has no need to be saved.

Now, filter this and reconcile it with John 9:41 and 15:22. How is one condemned who is not guilty?

 

[convicted1]

It does not...(at least not in this passage) it said they DIED, not were made sinners:

Their actions DO indeed make them sinners read vs. 12 and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: notice it says that "Death" is what passed, not "Sin"...and "Death" passed "for that all have sinned".
The same passage also says in direct parrallel that ALL (MANY) are also made ALIVE in Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Reading Original Guilt into this passage forces you to also read Universalism into that same passage.
It isn't Scripture that tells us that here....it is the WCF.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Now, filter this and reconcile it with John 9:41 and 15:22. How is one condemned who is not guilty?

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[salzer mtn]

Now, filter this and reconcile it with John 9:41 and 15:22. How is one condemned who is not guilty?

Christ in both scriptures is talking to and talking of the Pharisees wilfully rejecting Christ, though he showed them many miracles and raised the dead so that they were without excuse. They wilfully sinned against knowledge of scripture and the works which he did and they very well knew who he really was. In St. John 9:41 Christ is telling the Pharisees, if you were truly blind to the fact of who i really am you would not have the sin of disbelief, but now ye say, we see, or you say you understand who i really am, so your sin remains because although knowing, you reject me anyway.

 

[webdog]

Christ in both scriptures is talking to and talking of the Pharisees wilfully rejecting Christ, though he showed them many miracles and raised the dead so that they were without excuse. They wilfully sinned against knowledge of scripture and the works which he did and they very well knew who he really was. In St. John 9:41 Christ is telling the Pharisees, if you were truly blind to the fact of who i really am you would not have the sin of disbelief, but now ye say, we see, or you say you understand who i really am, so your sin remains because although knowing, you reject me anyway.

Which is the point of John 3:18, willfully rejecting Christ brings guilt and with it condemnation. This goes against what the majority of churches teach and what Christians believe.

 

[salzer mtn]

Which is the point of John 3:18, willfully rejecting Christ brings guilt and with it condemnation. This goes against what the majority of churches teach and what Christians believe.

Can you show scripture that rejecting Christ brings guilt ? Most people today and the Pharisees justified themselves and felt justified when they rejected Christ or the gospel.

 

[MB]

The bible teaches that we are condemned already. " Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Prior to believing we are condemned. That is why we must be saved. A person not in trouble has no need to be saved.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
A men to this post.
MB

 

[webdog]

Can you show scripture that rejecting Christ brings guilt ? Most people today and the Pharisees justified themselves and felt justified when they rejected Christ or the gospel.

Sinning brings guilt, go back to the account of the fall. Rejecting Christ is sin. Can show Scripture we are created guilty?

 

[salzer mtn]

Sinning brings guilt, go back to the account of the fall. Rejecting Christ is sin. Can show Scripture we are created guilty?

The sinning didn't bring guilt to their conscience. Adam and Eve were wraped up in their works of fig leaves UNTIL the Lord came calling on them then they became guilty at to what they had done before God. The words where art thou brought attention to their sin and created a guilty conscience. If or until God crosses the path of a sinner he will love his sin's and will not part with them, Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water (He has a thirst to sin) Man has been pronounced guilty and condemned before God because of the fall that brought forth spiritual death but not guilty in his conscience until God makes him aware of it. Adam is our federal head, his sin became our sin. God gave Adam a commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam broke that commandment, disobeyed and eat. God pronouned him guilty because he could not have been condemned by God if he was not guilty.

 

[HisWitness]

It does not...(at least not in this passage) it said they DIED, not were made sinners:

Their actions DO indeed make them sinners read vs. 12 and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: notice it says that "Death" is what passed, not "Sin"...and "Death" passed "for that all have sinned".
The same passage also says in direct parrallel that ALL (MANY) are also made ALIVE in Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Reading Original Guilt into this passage forces you to also read Universalism into that same passage.
It isn't Scripture that tells us that here....it is the WCF.

It does not...(at least not in this passage) it said they DIED, not were made sinners:



commenting on this----Roman's 5-19 states

For as by one man's(Adam) disobedience(Sin) many(ALL) WERE MADE SINNER'S--so in essence men are born as Sinners because of Adam's Sin.
Men are not Sinners because they Sin--Men Sin because they are Sinners.

And the penalty of being a Sinner was DEATH :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

The sinning didn't bring guilt to their conscience. Adam and Eve were wraped up in their works of fig leaves UNTIL the Lord came calling on them then they became guilty at to what they had done before God. The words where art thou brought attention to their sin and created a guilty conscience. If or until God crosses the path of a sinner he will love his sin's and will not part with them, Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water (He has a thirst to sin) Man has been pronounced guilty and condemned before God because of the fall that brought forth spiritual death but not guilty in his conscience until God makes him aware of it. Adam is our federal head, his sin became our sin. God gave Adam a commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam broke that commandment, disobeyed and eat. God pronouned him guilty because he could not have been condemned by God if he was not guilty.

We're going to have to disagree. The moment they ate and their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked they were guilty. Non guilty people don't hide.

 

[HisWitness]

It does not...(at least not in this passage) it said they DIED, not were made sinners:

Their actions DO indeed make them sinners read vs. 12 and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: notice it says that "Death" is what passed, not "Sin"...and "Death" passed "for that all have sinned".
The same passage also says in direct parrallel that ALL (MANY) are also made ALIVE in Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Reading Original Guilt into this passage forces you to also read Universalism into that same passage.
It isn't Scripture that tells us that here....it is the WCF.

Just because you reject the latter part of that scripture--forces you to also reject the first part of it--Many who hold to the first MANY as under Adam reject the 2nd part of this teaching--they who hold the first part are half right----you would be better to be half right than to be totally wrong:love2:

 

[salzer mtn]

We're going to have to disagree. The moment they ate and their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked they were guilty. Non guilty people don't hide.

Yes, i see by verse seven their natural eyes were open as well as their eyes of understanding and they saw the shame of their nakedness, but remember, God had already layed down the law to them. they were judged on their disobedience and that alone, not like we, their seed which inheritated their transgression.

 

[convicted1]

God told Adam that when he ate of that tree, he would surely die, and he did. He died spiritually, and the sentence of death was also placed upon him and all mankind. Whether we be saint or sinner, we're gonna die the physical death, and by no means can we escape that. We can, however, escape the spiritual death by placing our faith in Him.

Adam's sin passed the physical death upon all humans from him unto the last one God's creates. "In Adam" is referring to Adam, which was what was passed down to us....we get our flesh from Adam(and thusly, die from his sin), but our soul comes from God, and it dies when it willingly and knowingly transgresses His Law(s).