Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?

[HeirofSalvation]

God told Adam that when he ate of that tree, he would surely die, and he did. He died spiritually, and the sentence of death was also placed upon him and all mankind. Whether we be saint or sinner, we're gonna die the physical death, and by no means can we escape that. We can, however, escape the spiritual death by placing our faith in Him.

Adam's sin passed the physical death upon all humans from him unto the last one God's creates. "In Adam" is referring to Adam, which was what was passed down to us....we get our flesh from Adam(and thusly, die from his sin), but our soul comes from God, and it dies when it willingly and knowingly transgresses His Law(s).

By jove... I think you gots it :thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Just because you reject the latter part of that scripture--forces you to also reject the first part of it--Many who hold to the first MANY as under Adam reject the 2nd part of this teaching--they who hold the first part are half right----you would be better to be half right than to be totally wrong:love2:

Hi HW:
No one is talking about "rejecting" half of that Scripture...in fact, that Scripture doesn't really even HAVE two separate halves...it is ONE statement, and it is a direct and parrallel comparison of two things:

You cannot place one rule of interpretation upon what occured in Adam, and another rule of interpretation upon what occurs in Christ: In order to read Original Guilt into that passage, you would by necessity also have to read Universalism into it as well. vs. 18 demands a consistent hermeneutic throughout. If there is a caveat to what happens in Christ, then there is also a caveat to what happened in Adam.

 

[convicted1]

No one is talking about "rejecting" half of that Scripture...in fact, that Scripture doesn't really even HAVE two separate halves...it is ONE statement, and it is a direct and parrallel comparison of two things:

You cannot place one rule of interpretation upon what occured in Adam, and another rule of interpretation upon what occurs in Christ: In order to read Original Guilt into that passage, you would by necessity also have to read Universalism into it as well. vs. 18 demands a consistent hermeneutic throughout. If there is a caveat to what happens in Christ, then there is also a caveat to what happened in Adam.

By jove, I think YOU got it!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[salzer mtn]

If spiritual death was not passed on to mankind through Adam, every person that don't want to go to hell should move to a remote place and cut yourself of from the world, in every way, so as to be sure not to ever hear the gospel, so you won't reject it and spiritually die. The way some believe, by becoming a hermit you would be just as saved as Apostle Paul. You should also raise your children and grand children in the remote place so they will have a guarentee to heaven.

 

[Winman]

If spiritual death was not passed on to mankind through Adam, every person that don't want to go to hell should move to a remote place and cut yourself of from the world, in every way, so as to be sure not to ever hear the gospel, so you won't reject it and spiritually die. The way some believe, by becoming a hermit you would be just as saved as Apostle Paul. You should also raise your children and grand children in the remote place so they will have a guarentee to heaven.

Nope, that won't help, because Paul said those who have sinned without the law shall perish without the law. Why? Because they have the law written on their hearts and conscience. You don't need written law to understand it is wrong to kill someone, or to steal, or even to lie. All men know this. You can go to the deepest jungle and find a tribe of people that have never heard of the scriptures, and yet they will have rules of right conduct. It is natural.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

So even if a man were never to hear the law, he is still condemned by the law written on his heart and conscience.

But this would not apply to a newborn baby, or even a one year old baby. They have no concept whatever of right and wrong. This is clearly shown in scripture.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God did not allow the Jews who sinned in the wilderness to enter the Promised Land, which is a figure of heaven. But he allowed the children to go in, because they did not have knowledge between good and evil in that day.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This verse shows that little children do not at first know to refuse evil and choose good. By the way, this verse refutes Total Inabiity, because it shows even a child can refuse evil and "choose the good". :thumbsup:

Romans 2:14 also refutes Total Inability, because Paul says the Gentiles do the things contained in the law BY NATURE.

 

[salzer mtn]

I got it, we are condemned by the law of God written in our heart, we are condemned by refusing to believe on Jesus and we are condemned by Adams transgression imputed. We are condemned, condemned condemned.

 

[Winman]

I got it, we are condemned by the law of God written in our heart, we are condemned by refusing to believe on Jesus and we are condemned by Adams transgression imputed. We are condemned, condemned condemned.

Where does the Bible say Adam's SIN passed on us? The last time I looked, my Bible says DEATH passed on all men, not sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Where does the Bible say sin passed on all men because of Adam? This verse says death passed on all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. It says death has passed on all men because they have sinned, not because Adam sinned.

 

[Amy.G]

Where does the Bible say Adam's SIN passed on us? The last time I looked, my Bible says DEATH passed on all men, not sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Where does the Bible say sin passed on all men because of Adam? This verse says death passed on all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. It says death has passed on all men because they have sinned, not because Adam sinned.

Wherefore, as by one man (ADAM) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so (BECAUSE OF ADAM) death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

 

[Winman]

Wherefore, as by one man (ADAM) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so (BECAUSE OF ADAM) death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

I agree 100% that sin entered the world by Adam.

I agree 100% that death entered by sin.

I agree 100% that death has passed upon all men. But this verse does not say Adam's sin passed on all men, it says DEATH passed upon all men (not sin) for (because) all have sinned. '

In fact, if you read the next two verses you will see this is correct.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

In verse 13 Paul says sin IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law. How many laws were in the world before Moses? ONE. There was only ONE single law, that man could not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Could men break this law? NO. Why? Because man had been taken out of the garden where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and tree of life, and an angel guarded it so that no man could approach it and eat of it and live forever.

So, there was only one law, and man could not break it, so how could sin be imputed to them? It can't. And that is exactly what verse 14 says. Verse 14 says death reigned over men from Adam to Moses (not all men) who DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. It was impossible for them to do so.

So why did they die? Because Paul had already explained that men without the law shall perish without the law because they have broken the law written on their heart and conscience. (Rom 2)

And please note Paul is not speaking of ALL MEN now. He is only speaking of men who lived from Adam to Moses when there was no written law. After Moses came, then men under Moses' law died because they had disobeyed Moses' law, NOT BECAUSE OF ADAM.

Moses' law would not even be necessary if all men died because of Adam. Isn't that correct?

 

[salzer mtn]

Where does the Bible say Adam's SIN passed on us? The last time I looked, my Bible says DEATH passed on all men, not sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Where does the Bible say sin passed on all men because of Adam? This verse says death passed on all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. It says death has passed on all men because they have sinned, not because Adam sinned.

Psa 51:5 Behold, i was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born , speaking lies. To me these verses clearly points out that sin is passed on to us through Adam. I believe the death that Adam passed on was both natural and spiritual because if a natural man was not dead spiritually, the things of God which are spiritual would not be foolishness to him, and he cannot know them because he has no spiritual disernment, 1 Cor 2:14. Eph 2:1 And you he hath quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sin. Why would we have to be quickened or made alive spiritually if we were not dead spiritually ? In Rom 5 :12 When death passed upon all men it caused all men to be partakers of that sin, for that all have sinned. The whole verse is talking about Adams sin and the results of Adams sin which was death, not our sins by personal disobedience.

 

[webdog]

Wherefore, as by one man (ADAM) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so (BECAUSE OF ADAM) death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

How does that refute what Winman said?

 

[webdog]

Psa 51:5 Behold, i was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born , speaking lies. To me these verses clearly points out that sin is passed on to us through Adam. I believe the death that Adam passed on was both natural and spiritual because if a natural man was not dead spiritually, the things of God which are spiritual would not be foolishness to him, and he cannot know them because he has no spiritual disernment, 1 Cor 2:14. Eph 2:1 And you he hath quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sin. Why would we have to be quickened or made alive spiritually if we were not dead spiritually ? In Rom 5 :12 When death passed upon all men it caused all men to be partakers of that sin, for that all have sinned. The whole verse is talking about Adams sin and the results of Adams sin which was death, not our sins by personal disobedience.

All taken out of context. Proof texting is not a reasonable argument, particularly when it contradicts other Scripture like James 1:15, Ephesians 2:1 (dead in whose sins? Your sins!), Colossians 2:13, etc.

 

[salzer mtn]

I agree 100% that sin entered the world by Adam.

I agree 100% that death entered by sin.

I agree 100% that death has passed upon all men. But this verse does not say Adam's sin passed on all men, it says DEATH passed upon all men (not sin) for (because) all have sinned. '

In fact, if you read the next two verses you will see this is correct.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

In verse 13 Paul says sin IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law. How many laws were in the world before Moses? ONE. There was only ONE single law, that man could not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Could men break this law? NO. Why? Because man had been taken out of the garden where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and tree of life, and an angel guarded it so that no man could approach it and eat of it and live forever.

So, there was only one law, and man could not break it, so how could sin be imputed to them? It can't. And that is exactly what verse 14 says. Verse 14 says death reigned over men from Adam to Moses (not all men) who DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. It was impossible for them to do so.

Adam did break that law, Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which i commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it.

 

[salzer mtn]

Now, filter this and reconcile it with John 9:41 and 15:22. How is one condemned who is not guilty?

You Proof text too.

 

[webdog]

You Proof text to.

We all do to an extent, but Augustinianism is built on it. Proof is in the infant baptism created to reconcile the doctrine. When we let Bible explain Bible we must reject Augustine's theory.

 

[Winman]

Psa 51:5 Behold, i was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born , speaking lies. To me these verses clearly points out that sin is passed on to us through Adam. I believe the death that Adam passed on was both natural and spiritual because if a natural man was not dead spiritually, the things of God which are spiritual would not be foolishness to him, and he cannot know them because he has no spiritual disernment, 1 Cor 2:14. Eph 2:1 And you he hath quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sin. Why would we have to be quickened or made alive spiritually if we were not dead spiritually ? In Rom 5 :12 When death passed upon all men it caused all men to be partakers of that sin, for that all have sinned. The whole verse is talking about Adams sin and the results of Adams sin which was death, not our sins by personal disobedience.

These verses have been addressed many times. In Psalm 51 David is confessing his sin with Bathsheba. It would not make sense to suddenly blame his birth for his sin.

Psalm 58 is obvious hyperbole (exaggeration). No child ever born can speak lies until he is nearly 2 years old. Children are not poisonous like a snake, they are not born with huge teeth like a lion, and they do not melt like snails. David would not be praying for all babies to pass away. You cannot form doctrine from obvious hyperbole like this.

Were Adam and Eve made spiritually dead? NOPE. But they sinned and spiritually died and needed to be born again just like everyone else. It is the same for all men, Paul said he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, he died. He had just told us that he would not have known sin except for the law, so Paul was speaking of when he learned the law and what was sin. And of course he was speaking of spiritual death, he could not have been telling us he was physically dead.

Ephesians 2 says we were dead in trespasses and sins. It does not say you were born dead. In fact, Romans 9:11 tells us that Esau and Jacob had committed no sin while they were in their mother's womb.

When the prodigal son repented, Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. If we are born dead (oxymoron), then it would be impossible for Jesus to say we are alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Somebody has sold you a lie.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wherefore, as by one man (ADAM) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so (BECAUSE OF ADAM) death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

You are correct,AMY G,

in romans 3:23 it says that all men sinned at one point in time.When he sinned we sinned in Him.I have shown this to Winman and others several times, but they willing resist the truth on this.

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

This is what it says, this is what it teaches.It will never change.:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[salzer mtn]

We all do to an extent, but Augustinianism is built on it. Proof is in the infant baptism created to reconcile the doctrine. When we let Bible explain Bible we must reject Augustine's theory.

Scripture can interpretate scripture. When one scripture is not clear, another scripture can clear it up.

 

[Winman]

You are correct,AMY G,

Unfortunately, she is not, and neither are you.

in romans 3:23 it says that all men sinned at one point in time.When he sinned we sinned in Him.I have shown this to Winman and others several times, but they willing resist the truth on this.

It does not say that, it simply says "for all have sinned" speaking of people who have been born since Adam.

This is what it says, this is what it teaches.It will never change.:thumbs::thumbs:

It is not possible for your interpretation to be correct as the scriptures clearly say the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of his son. All men die for their own sin.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[salzer mtn]

These verses have been addressed many times. In Psalm 51 David is confessing his sin with Bathsheba. It would not make sense to suddenly blame his birth for his sin.

Psalm 58 is obvious hyperbole (exaggeration). No child ever born can speak lies until he is nearly 2 years old. Children are not poisonous like a snake, they are not born with huge teeth like a lion, and they do not melt like snails. David would not be praying for all babies to pass away. You cannot form doctrine from obvious hyperbole like this.

Were Adam and Eve made spiritually dead? NOPE. But they sinned and spiritually died and needed to be born again just like everyone else. It is the same for all men, Paul said he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, he died. He had just told us that he would not have known sin except for the law, so Paul was speaking of when he learned the law and what was sin. And of course he was speaking of spiritual death, he could not have been telling us he was physically dead.

Ephesians 2 says we were dead in trespasses and sins. It does not say you were born dead. In fact, Romans 9:11 tells us that Esau and Jacob had committed no sin while they were in their mother's womb.

When the prodigal son repented, Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. If we are born dead (oxymoron), then it would be impossible for Jesus to say we are alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Somebody has sold you a lie.

So scripture only means what it say's when you agree, otherwise it don't mean what it say's. Have you ever raised any children? Babies can cry out when there is nothing at all wrong with them, they only want to get your attention, they are speaking lies. If Psa 51:5 is a lie, then we cannot trust any of the scripture to be true.