Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?

[salzer mtn]

I know the truth hurts but yeall try to calm down now and don't bust a blood vain.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Yes....babies are evil "liars" when they cry for the love and affection and re-inforcement and security of being held by the only protectors they are aware of in their World...:laugh::laugh:

I STILL cry for love and attention. :laugh:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Babies as well as children as well as grown men can become spoiled and want attention which is self love. This is the seed of Adam.

God has wired mothers provably and scientifically demonstrable to lactate when they hear an infant cry...A breast-feeding mother will begin to lactate at the sound of ANY infant's cries, even if it isn't their own infant.

My wife has ignored the "cries" of our children insisting that "nothing" is wrong only to discover diaper-rash or something else which is making the child uncomfortable.

Sometimes...a diaper will be changed, and then literally 5 mins later...they have dirtied it, and then they "cry"...That's ALL they know how to do.
Sometimes they have upset stomachs only, they can't DESCRIBE this to you in the language that you INSIST they use, or, they might be teething and are in pain, and again, precisely what language should they use to inform you of their pain???

DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN???
Have you spent MORE than 20 seconds thinking about this at all?
Do you honestly realize how un-informed and ridiculous you sound?
I am sorry to be harsh (I am)...but this sort of thinking is simply dangerous and stupid.

 

[Winman]

God has wired mothers provably and scientifically demonstrable to lactate when they hear an infant cry...A breast-feeding mother will begin to lactate at the sound of ANY infant's cries, even if it isn't their own infant.

My wife has ignored the "cries" of our children insisting that "nothing" is wrong only to discover diaper-rash or something else which is making the child uncomfortable.

Sometimes...a diaper will be changed, and then literally 5 mins later...they have dirtied it, and then they "cry"...That's ALL they know how to do.
Sometimes they have upset stomachs only, they can't DESCRIBE this to you in the language that you INSIST they use, or, they might be teething and are in pain, and again, precisely what language should they use to inform you of their pain???

DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN???
Have you spent MORE than 20 seconds thinking about this at all?
Do you honestly realize how un-informed and ridiculous you sound?
I am sorry to be harsh (I am)...but this sort of thinking is simply dangerous and stupid.

I have 8 children, I cannot tell you how many stinky diapers I've changed. I've had them poop on me, pee on me, throw up in my ear, stick their finger up my nose and almost touch my brain (Wow, did that hurt), and that's just me. My wife put up with ten times that. It is not easy being a baby, there is always something wrong with them, their nose is stuffed up and you have to take one of those little vacuum pumps to get all that nasty stuff out, they cut teeth and their cheeks become chaffed, they get ear-aches and their ears glow red, and they get horrible rashes all over their bottom.

When they start crawling and walking they fall and bump their heads, their brothers and sisters hit them...

No wonder they turn into sinners. :tongue3:

 

[salzer mtn]

God has wired mothers provably and scientifically demonstrable to lactate when they hear an infant cry...A breast-feeding mother will begin to lactate at the sound of ANY infant's cries, even if it isn't their own infant.

My wife has ignored the "cries" of our children insisting that "nothing" is wrong only to discover diaper-rash or something else which is making the child uncomfortable.

Sometimes...a diaper will be changed, and then literally 5 mins later...they have dirtied it, and then they "cry"...That's ALL they know how to do.
Sometimes they have upset stomachs only, they can't DESCRIBE this to you in the language that you INSIST they use, or, they might be teething and are in pain, and again, precisely what language should they use to inform you of their pain???

DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN???
Have you spent MORE than 20 seconds thinking about this at all?
Do you honestly realize how un-informed and ridiculous you sound?
I am sorry to be harsh (I am)...but this sort of thinking is simply dangerous and stupid.

Your wife must be on the same page i am. Please turn the page and catch up.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

How do you know nothing else is wrong? How do you know their stomach doesn't hurt, or their back? Do you realize many children have subluxations for years due to 9 months in the womb and delivery? How do you know they aren't sad, or had a nightmare? The 'babies lie when they cry nonsense' is purely a result of Augustinianism. Its sick.

True words spoken by someone who is a parent of REAL live (and not theoretical) children....

I also have young children. My wife and I STILL have a lot to learn about what possible "real" problems children have and they can't tell us about them, they can only "cry".

The "nightmare" scenario is actually one we have just recently figured out LOL :laugh:
And, yes, a child is WELL within their rights to cry when they have had a nighmare that they can't explain to their parents.

Adults rarely have nightmares...children do. Frankly, I had completely forgotten about such things for the last 15 years or so until my wife explained that my children have suffered from some nightmares.

Good thing I didn't merely call them godless sinful "liars" for having been frightened by them

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Your wife must be on the same page i am. Please turn the page and catch up.

She is reading the thread along with me. She is NOT on the same page you are, I assure you.

 

[salzer mtn]

If you guy's has a problem with psa 58:3 go dig David up and jump on him, he is the one that wrote it, not me. Here is some more scripture, choke on these awhile. Prov 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Job 25:4 How can he be clean that is born of woman ? Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of a unclean thing ? not one.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

If you guy's has a problem with psa 58:3 go dig David up and jump on him, he is the one that wrote it, not me. Here is some more scripture, choke on these awhile. Prov 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Job 25:4 How can he be clean that is born of woman ? Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of a unclean thing ? not one.

Ok....so, in what way exactly, do these verses state that infants are born "guilty" of the sin of Adam...

When you quote and then exegete how these passages state that infants are concieved and born "guilty" of Adam's sin...then your point will be proven...easily done right? :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

If you guy's has a problem with psa 58:3 go dig David up and jump on him, he is the one that wrote it, not me. Here is some more scripture, choke on these awhile. Prov 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Job 25:4 How can he be clean that is born of woman ? Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of a unclean thing ? not one.

Why do keep going to figurative language in written songs of David to form doctrine? And wisdom literature?

Who is arguing an infant is clean? Of course they are under the curse, hence the reason they will die. Being under the curse is not = to being a sinner. A sinner is "one who sins", not merely one who is conceived.

Choke on this one for a while

15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Clearly not physical death as it has been appointed unto man once to die. We die spiritually the same way Adam and everyone born since him did, by sinning, which is a conscious and deliberate breaking of God's law.

 

[LillyoftheValley]

She is reading the thread along with me. She is NOT on the same page you are, I assure you.

You are mistaken sir. I (HoS's wife) am not on the same page as you. The examples given were to show that even if I thought nothing was wrong with the baby, outside of the desire to be held and shown affection, that at times I was proven mistaken. And I certainly would not place the child's desire to be loved in the category of sin.

Speaking of kids, I must now bow out and put children down for naps. I'll pick this back up after dinner.

 

[Winman]

If you guy's has a problem with psa 58:3 go dig David up and jump on him, he is the one that wrote it, not me. Here is some more scripture, choke on these awhile. Prov 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Job 25:4 How can he be clean that is born of woman ? Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of a unclean thing ? not one.

If you are correct, then Jesus would have been a sinner, because Jesus was born of a woman.

If you have seen a child be born, you know it is quite a bloody affair. A child cannot be born without getting covered by it's mother's blood. Likewise, a child cannot be born into this world without being surrounded and influenced by sin all around him.

The scriptures teach that we learn sin from our fathers.

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Peter spoke of our vain conversation (our behavior) received from our fathers.

You believe the scriptures teach a person lies the day they are born. No one can speak the day they are born, and most children cannot put even two words together until they are about a year and a half old (or older).

But what language do they speak? Does a child EVER speak a different language from his parents? NO, so it is clear that a baby learns to speak from listening to his mother, father, and siblings. Do they lie? YES, and the baby hears it. A baby has probably heard lies dozens of times before he is able to speak. But he has heard lies and has learned how to lie from his parents. This is his vain conversation received from his fathers.

We are even shown that idolatry is learned from our fathers.

Eze 20:18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols:

And why did God command the Jews to kill all the people of Canaan? So they would not learn their abominations.

Deu 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

Sin is learned. This is why a child born of a woman cannot remain clean, because he is born into a sinful world that influences him. This is also how the Jews interpreted Psa 51:5 as David saying he was born into a sinful world.

 

[Van]

Very discouraging thread, such a basic doctrine, by the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners. We were by nature at conception "children of wrath." If you do not believe in Jesus you are condemned already. We are not conceived as believers but as non-believers who must put our faith in Christ. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish also says whoever does not believe shall perish.

This is basic and to have eight pages on nonsense is discouraging.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

God told Adam that when he ate of that tree, he would surely die, and he did. He died spiritually, and the sentence of death was also placed upon him and all mankind. Whether we be saint or sinner, we're gonna die the physical death, and by no means can we escape that. We can, however, escape the spiritual death by placing our faith in Him.

Adam's sin passed the physical death upon all humans from him unto the last one God's creates. "In Adam" is referring to Adam, which was what was passed down to us....we get our flesh from Adam(and thusly, die from his sin), but our soul comes from God, and it dies when it willingly and knowingly transgresses His Law(s).

Why do animals die? They never sinned.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Where does the Bible say Adam's SIN passed on us? The last time I looked, my Bible says DEATH passed on all men, not sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Where does the Bible say sin passed on all men because of Adam? This verse says death passed on all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. It says death has passed on all men because they have sinned, not because Adam sinned.

:applause:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

How do you know nothing else is wrong? How do you know their stomach doesn't hurt, or their back? Do you realize many children have subluxations for years due to 9 months in the womb and delivery? How do you know they aren't sad, or had a nightmare? The 'babies lie when they cry nonsense' is purely a result of Augustinianism. Its sick.

Augustine's influence is rampant in the RCC and Protestantism. It is the source of countless evil doctrine.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Very discouraging thread, such a basic doctrine, by the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners. We were by nature at conception "children of wrath." If you do not believe in Jesus you are condemned already. We are not conceived as believers but as non-believers who must put our faith in Christ. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish also says whoever does not believe shall perish.

This is basic and to have eight pages on nonsense is discouraging.

What is discouraging is to have eight pages defending scriptural truth against Augustinian Manichaesm.

 

[Winman]

Very discouraging thread, such a basic doctrine, by the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners. We were by nature at conception "children of wrath." If you do not believe in Jesus you are condemned already. We are not conceived as believers but as non-believers who must put our faith in Christ. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish also says whoever does not believe shall perish.

This is basic and to have eight pages on nonsense is discouraging.

Then you must believe all newborn babies who die go to hell. It takes knowledge to believe the gospel, newborns and little children do not have this ability.

Now you will make up some non-scriptural reason as to why babies do not go to hell, instead of believing what the scriptures teach, that babies have committed no sin.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Paul taught that Esau and Jacob had done no evil while they were alive in their mother's womb. They were NOT sinners as you falsely teach.

 

[Iconoclast]

HeirofSalvation

This is by far your worst post as you and the others openly deny God's truth.

It has been clearly posted, so this is willful ignorance for whatever motive you have.

No, it won't change....but do you realize that what you have just said is PRECISELY what Winman has been saying all these years? It is ALSO what I am saying, and it appears webdog is ALSO saying....Romans 3:23 All HAVE SINNED...that is so clear as day.

No...this is exactly what they deny over and over.

You are pretending that this verse says:
"All infants are guilty of Adam's willful crime".....that's a lie you've been sold

.


I showed you...exactly what the verse does say......you can deny it all you want,however that is between you and God.

All sinned at one time in the past. ?That one exact point in time is the fall.

You can shamefully attempt to fragment the truth and post error,but you lose all credibility in doing so.:wavey:

Quite frankly...Romans 3:23 may be the weakest possible verse in Scripture to support your point of view.

Understood correctly it is the end of the story.If you do not understand it,you really do not understand imputation of the righteousness of Christ correctly either.

Thus....you quote a confession, and no passage of actual Scripture: right here:

Actually it was a Cathechism with biblical commentary by someone you could not begin to refute....so you seek to divert attention from it.

It is...the actual passage of scripture that is being discussed and commented upon.Those without the anti-cal agenda will understand it very easily.

You have posted NO VERSE which states this....in fact, you have posted a verse which denies it or at least lends no support whatsoever...and yet, you think that you use the Scriptures???

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event,

Try and follow HOS...i will help you connect the dots........

i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity

This is what you all openly deny...right in this thread.....

but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/.

All.....SINNED.... not all have sinned


“For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”).



All sinned and died in Adam.....they demonstrate this by dying, by sinning willfully in their own experience...The scripture teaches this....
Of course you and team antical jihad cannot own this as you would have to admit your error and you knpw where that would lead you to believe...
I understand..... and Willis 4 thumbs up does not change your posted error to truth.

Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.
HOKUM...you are "Confession" first...Bible second. It is obvious to all but the willingly ignorant.

The writers of the confessions and catechisms were all scripture first, you know that also...so why degrade yourself with such foolishness?:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

What is discouraging is to have eight pages defending scriptural truth against Augustinian Manichaesm.

What is discouraging is for you to post 800 times without using a verse of scripture.:thumbs: