Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?

[Thomas Helwys]

What is discouraging is for you to post 800 times without using a verse of scripture.:thumbs:

Not true, and you cannot back that up, as anyone can see by doing a search on my posts.

 

[Van]

Sick and Tired

Then you must believe all newborn babies who die go to hell. It takes knowledge to believe the gospel, newborns and little children do not have this ability.

Now you will make up some non-scriptural reason as to why babies do not go to hell, instead of believing what the scriptures teach, that babies have committed no sin.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Paul taught that Esau and Jacob had done no evil while they were alive in their mother's womb. They were NOT sinners as you falsely teach.

Truth has no meaning for you. Once again you have claimed I must believe something unbiblical.

Rather than falsely charging me with all sorts of bad behavior, why not deal with scripture? Because your view cannot be defended by scripture. This thread is discouraging because of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

What does the Bible say happens to unbelieving babies that die. 1) Are they children of wrath? Yes. 2) Are they condemned already? Yes. 3) Does the Bible imply that whoever does not believe shall perish? Yes

Have babies done anything good or bad? Nope. But they were made sinners, children of wrath from conception.

The reason we have nine pages of nonsense is because of denial of scripture.

 

[Winman]

Truth has no meaning for you. Once again you have claimed I must believe something unbiblical.

Rather than falsely charging me with all sorts of bad behavior, why not deal with scripture? Because your view cannot be defended by scripture. This thread is discouraging because of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

What does the Bible say happens to unbelieving babies that die. 1) Are they children of wrath? Yes. 2) Are they condemned already? Yes. 3) Does the Bible imply that whoever does not believe shall perish? Yes

Have babies done anything good or bad? Nope. But they were made sinners, children of wrath from conception.

The reason we have nine pages of nonsense is because of denial of scripture.

The scriptures do not say a word about babies being children of wrath. This term is directed to adults who WALKED sccording to the course of this world.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Paul used the term WALKED to describe persons who lived a sinful lifestyle and thus were children of wrath. A newborn baby cannot walk, crawl, turn over, or barely move at all.

It is no coincidence that Paul used this term "walked" to show that men become sinners when they knowingly and willfully choose to sin. He is not saying men are born sinners whatsoever. You are reading that into the text.

The scriptures do not say children are guilty, they show they are not guilty.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God did not punish the children of the Jews who sinned in the wilderness. Why? Because they had no knowledge between good and evil. This shows God does not hold a child accountable for his actions until he matures and understands right from wrong.

And why did God say he SHOULD spare Nineveh to Jonah? Because there were 120,000 little children in the city who could not discern their right hand from their left hand, and much cattle. They were no more sinners than the cattle who have no concept of sin.

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Finally, in scripture God calls innocent children MY CHILDREN.

Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

Here God says children are "born unto me", that is, they belong to him, not the devil. God called these innocent children who were sacrificed MY CHILDREN.

You need to study more, the scriptures do not show little children to be lost or children of wrath whatsoever. They show them to be innocent.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Truth has no meaning for you. Once again you have claimed I must believe something unbiblical.

Rather than falsely charging me with all sorts of bad behavior, why not deal with scripture? Because your view cannot be defended by scripture. This thread is discouraging because of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

What does the Bible say happens to unbelieving babies that die. 1) Are they children of wrath? Yes. 2) Are they condemned already? Yes. 3) Does the Bible imply that whoever does not believe shall perish? Yes

Have babies done anything good or bad? Nope. But they were made sinners, children of wrath from conception.

The reason we have nine pages of nonsense is because of denial of scripture.

Then I suggest that you and others who believe as you do stop your denial of scripture.

 

[ryarn]

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[convicted1]

Well, it's time to put this baby to bed....:tongue3:


Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

What is concieved in conception? The fleshly man. That is what is shapen in iniquity. The soul/spirit comes from God, and it isn't made a sinner. The fleshly man is created in the image of Adam after he sinned, and has the stain of sin all over it. That's why babies die in infancy, in the womb, get sick, etc. The soul dies when it knowingly and willingly transgresses God's Law(s).


Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


What lies do a new born speak? What words can they say that forms a lie? A lie is willingly trying to misinform/deceive someone. I guess they think this: "I really want to say agoo, but I'll say pssbblrrb, pssssshhhrrsshhwt, glubbbllrrnbburbbl, that'll show'em".

The quicker y'all get away from St. Augustus of Hippo's teachings, the clearer you'll see this.

 

[convicted1]

Why do animals die? They never sinned.

Do animals come from the ground as well? I honestly don't know the answer to this. If they do, God cursed the ground after Adam sinned.

 

[convicted1]

I STILL cry for love and attention. :laugh:

Same here.....just that wifey tells me to go sit in the corner and suck my thumb....:laugh:

 

[percho]

Well, it's time to put this baby to bed....:tongue3:


Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

What is concieved in conception? The fleshly man. That is what is shapen in iniquity. The soul/spirit comes from God, and it isn't made a sinner. The fleshly man is created in the image of Adam after he sinned, and has the stain of sin all over it. That's why babies die in infancy, in the womb, get sick, etc. The soul dies when it knowingly and willingly transgresses God's Law(s).


Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


What lies do a new born speak? What words can they say that forms a lie? A lie is willingly trying to misinform/deceive someone. I guess they think this: "I really want to say agoo, but I'll say pssbblrrb, pssssshhhrrsshhwt, glubbbllrrnbburbbl, that'll show'em".

The quicker y'all get away from St. Augustus of Hippo's teachings, the clearer you'll see this.

I am going to amen this post, even though you may not agree with me.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; John 3:6


Adam was going to sin for the lamb was already ordained to die. He was created that upon sinning he would bring death to himself and his children.

Hoyle

 

[Winman]

Do animals come from the ground as well? I honestly don't know the answer to this. If they do, God cursed the ground after Adam sinned.

Yes, animals are made from the elements just like us, and this is what the curse is upon. So animals die, plants die, and even un-living things grow old and corrupt.

It is actually a GOOD thing that we die. If man did not die, there would be no incentive to turn from sin. Man would be MUCH worse than he is. The fact that we will die and face judgment is our greatest incentive to turn from sin to God.

Babies die as a consequence of Adam's sin, not because they are sinners. Sin did bring a physical corruption into all the universe, and babies fall under this. But all things, even your automobile fall under this, and this is why we need AAA. :tongue3:

Adam was going to sin for the lamb was already ordained to die. He was created that upon sinning he would bring death to himself and his children.

This is because God in his foreknowledge knew man would sin, not because God determined man would sin as some hyper-Calvinists teach.

 

[percho]

Yes, animals are made from the elements just like us, and this is what the curse is upon. So animals die, plants die, and even un-living things grow old and corrupt.

It is actually a GOOD thing that we die. If man did not die, there would be no incentive to turn from sin. Man would be MUCH worse than he is. The fact that we will die and face judgment is our greatest incentive to turn from sin to God.

Babies die as a consequence of Adam's sin, not because they are sinners. Sin did bring a physical corruption into all the universe, and babies fall under this. But all things, even your automobile fall under this, and this is why we need AAA. :tongue3:



This is because God in his foreknowledge knew man would sin, not because God determined man would sin as some hyper-Calvinists teach.

I believe it was for purpose, whether, foreknown or determined.

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14

Would have been very hard to do that if there had not been any sin to bring death.

 

[salzer mtn]

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. There has been several that have commented on this scripture explaining what it is not but none has explained what it is. I believe that all scripture in the bible should be looked at as truth, therefore there is nothing untrue about this scripture. If i am unable to explain it, i will not declare it to be untrue. The wicked are estranged; there confidence and affections are not toward God, but alienated toward God. I don't know of any child born that has the natural instict to follow after God. They will do the opposite, no one born of woman seeks after God left to their own selves, except Christ. Speaking lies. People have more than one way communicating words besides speaking them with the tongue. Do you have to teach a child to have bad manners, to be selfish, to tell lies ? No, but you will have to teach them to have good manners, not to be selfish, not to lie. Some people seem to think a lie cannot be spoken by a baby because he or she cannot talk or unless a baby knows in his mind what a lie is. The Psalmist David said, They speak lies as soon as their born. He could not have meant they are already talking as soon as their born, so that leaves one conclusion, they cry out lies. What are the lies ? Cries of deception of wanting attention when they learn nearly instantly someone will come running. This is what some call being spoiled.

 

[Van]

We are condemned already because of unbelief. Babies do not believe.
Babies do not walk, but are by nature children of wrath. The many were made sinners. Scripture is crystal.

Those that deny scripture suppress the truth in unrighteousness, clinging to the doctrines of men.

How much wrath has a baby who has done nothing good or bad stored up? Not very much, right? But does scripture provide a loop hole for unbelief? Is belief in Jesus the only way to heaven, or do babies merit heaven because they have done nothing bad? The answer is no loop hole exists. But rather than embrace scripture, we get denial that babies were made sinners, conceived in iniquity, and are by nature children of wrath.

 

[psalms109:31]

Here we go again, using scripture to prove something it was never meant to prove, using it for our own teaching.

Children need help, teaching, rearing in the direction they shall go. It is not teaching they are bound for hell if they die as infants, but that they need teaching from their parents.

Proverbs 19:
26 Whoever robs their father and drives out their mother
is a child who brings shame and disgrace.

27 Stop listening to instruction, my son,
and you will stray from the words of knowledge.

28 A corrupt witness mocks at justice,
and the mouth of the wicked gulps down evil.

29 Penalties are prepared for mockers,
and beatings for the backs of fools.

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Ephesians 6:4

Ephesians 6
NIV

6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise— 3 “so that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.”[Deut. 5:16]

4 Fathers,[Or Parents] do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.


King James Version (KJV)

4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.


Ephesians 6:4

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Hebrews 5



5 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”[Psalm 2:7]

6 And he says in another place,

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”[Psalm 110:4]

7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

" II. This brings me now to note THE REASONS WHY WE THUS THINK INFANTS ARE SAVED.
First, we ground our conviction very much upon the goodness of the nature of God. We say that the opposite doctrine that some infants perish and are lost, is altogether repugnant to the idea which we have of Him whose name is love. If we had a God, whose name was Moloch, if God were an arbitrary tyrant, without benevolence or grace, we could suppose some infants being cast into hell; but our God, who heareth the young ravens when they cry, certainly will find no delight in the shrieks and cries of infants cast away from his presence. We read of him that he is so tender, that he careth for oxen, that he would not have the mouth of the ox muzzled, that treadeth out the corn. Nay, he careth for the bird upon the nest, and would not have the mother bird killed while sitting upon its nest with its little ones. He made ordinances and commands even for irrational creatures. He finds food for the most loathsome animal, nor does he neglect the worm any more than the angel, and shall we believe with such universal goodness as this, that he would cast away the infant soul I say it would he clear contrary to all that we have ever read or ever believed of Him, that our faith would stagger before a revelation which should display a fact so singularly exceptional to the tenor of his other deeds. We have learned humbly to submit our judgments to his will, and we dare not criticise or accuse the Lord of All; we believe him to be just, let him do as he may, and? Therefore, whatever he might reveal we would accept; but he never has, and I think he never will require of us so desperate a stretch of faith as to see goodness in the eternal misery of an infinite cast into hell"

C.H. Spurgeon

Original sin is where so many jump head first into a not so sound doctrine, that infants shall burn in hell. I praise God we do not worship a God named Moloch that desires a sacrifice of our children to suffer in hell for eternity.

I believed they are saved by the same way we are by being in His rest. I don't know the day we start working thirteen or what ever it will be to enter the rest that we were in as infants, but be assured babies, infants are in the rest that we the saved are. I know that God will wipe our tears away for them, and the truth will be right before us.

When we come to a place we do not know or understand we are to turn it into prayers and petition to God and put it in His hands, not to have an unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God, or sacrifice our children and put our Lord our God to a test.

In His rest original sin does not effect those who are in His rest.
__________________

 

[percho]

We are condemned already because of unbelief. Babies do not believe.
Babies do not walk, but are by nature children of wrath. The many were made sinners. Scripture is crystal.

Those that deny scripture suppress the truth in unrighteousness, clinging to the doctrines of men.

How much wrath has a baby who has done nothing good or bad stored up? Not very much, right? But does scripture provide a loop hole for unbelief? Is belief in Jesus the only way to heaven, or do babies merit heaven because they have done nothing bad? The answer is no loop hole exists. But rather than embrace scripture, we get denial that babies were made sinners, conceived in iniquity, and are by nature children of wrath.

I wonder what happens when they begin to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Will their free will keep them on the on the straight and narrow?

I wonder how old the baby Paul was when he was translated from unbelief, darkness unto belief, light?


Van, what would be your thoughts concerning these thoughts? Or are my thoughts flawed?

 

[Winman]

We are condemned already because of unbelief. Babies do not believe.
Babies do not walk, but are by nature children of wrath. The many were made sinners. Scripture is crystal.

Those that deny scripture suppress the truth in unrighteousness, clinging to the doctrines of men.

How much wrath has a baby who has done nothing good or bad stored up? Not very much, right? But does scripture provide a loop hole for unbelief? Is belief in Jesus the only way to heaven, or do babies merit heaven because they have done nothing bad? The answer is no loop hole exists. But rather than embrace scripture, we get denial that babies were made sinners, conceived in iniquity, and are by nature children of wrath.

And you are wrong yet again. You need to READ your Bible instead of parroting what someone else told you.

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Jesus had just picked up a little child and set him in the midst of the disciples. Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become "as little children" to enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus did not specify any particular children here, he simply said his disciples must be converted and become as little children.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Is Jesus speaking of specific children here, or ALL children? If you are honest you will admit this must mean all children. And now in verse 6 Jesus speaking of these same little children says they believe in him.

So they are not guilty of unbelief as you falsely teach. You need to STUDY.

 

[convicted1]

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. There has been several that have commented on this scripture explaining what it is not but none has explained what it is. I believe that all scripture in the bible should be looked at as truth, therefore there is nothing untrue about this scripture. If i am unable to explain it, i will not declare it to be untrue. The wicked are estranged; there confidence and affections are not toward God, but alienated toward God. I don't know of any child born that has the natural instict to follow after God. They will do the opposite, no one born of woman seeks after God left to their own selves, except Christ. Speaking lies. People have more than one way communicating words besides speaking them with the tongue. Do you have to teach a child to have bad manners, to be selfish, to tell lies ? No, but you will have to teach them to have good manners, not to be selfish, not to lie. Some people seem to think a lie cannot be spoken by a baby because he or she cannot talk or unless a baby knows in his mind what a lie is. The Psalmist David said, They speak lies as soon as their born. He could not have meant they are already talking as soon as their born, so that leaves one conclusion, they cry out lies. What are the lies ? Cries of deception of wanting attention when they learn nearly instantly someone will come running. This is what some call being spoiled.

Again, how can a baby come forth from the womb speaking anything?

Jesus said in John 6, "Except ye eat of the flesh of the Son of man, and drink of His blood, ye have no life in you." Now, if you take this literally, then you're accusing Jesus of supporting cannabalism. Some scriptures convey a literal truth, whereas others, have deeper meanings....such as Psalm 51:5 and 58:3.

 

[Van]

More charges, no facts!

Winman says I am parroting what others taught me. I am parroting scripture.

Next, rather than deal with scripture, Winman refers to little children who are unbelievers as if they were believers. Pure fiction.

Paul tells us the time and place He became a believer in Jesus.

The many were made sinners. We are by nature children of wrath.
Whoever does not believe is condemned already. Scripture is crystal.

 

[psalms109:31]

More charges, no facts!

Winman says I am parroting what others taught me. I am parroting scripture.

Next, rather than deal with scripture, Winman refers to little children who are unbelievers as if they were believers. Pure fiction.

Paul tells us the time and place He became a believer in Jesus.

The many were made sinners. We are by nature children of wrath.
Whoever does not believe is condemned already. Scripture is crystal.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Matthew 9:12-14
12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Mark 10:14
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

 

[Amy.G]

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Of course babies don't speak anything right from the womb! So that is obviously not the meaning. So what IS the meaning?

Babies are born with the same nature as liars, a sinful one.