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Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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No, it won't change....but do you realize that what you have just said is PRECISELY what Winman has been saying all these years? It is ALSO what I am saying, and it appears webdog is ALSO saying....Romans 3:23 All HAVE SINNED...that is so clear as day. You are pretending that this verse says:
"All infants are guilty of Adam's willful crime".....that's a lie you've been sold.
Quite frankly...Romans 3:23 may be the weakest possible verse in Scripture to support your point of view. This house isn't as strong as the one the piggy built out of STRAW....let alone the Brick one:
That dog not only won't hunt...it won't get it's lazy bum outa bed to crap outside.
Thus....you quote a confession, and no passage of actual Scripture: right here:
You have posted NO VERSE which states this....in fact, you have posted a verse which denies it or at least lends no support whatsoever...and yet, you think that you use the Scriptures???
HOKUM...you are "Confession" first...Bible second. It is obvious to all but the willingly ignorant.
convicted1
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:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
convicted1
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:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Yes, "Death" did...that's Scripture:
"sin" did not pass...except for as the passage states "FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED" That's the caveat given.
and Yes, Death is the result of "sin"....Physical death in Adam, and Spiritual Death when you yourself sin....Just read the Scriptures.
No Amy, it is saying that Adam introduced sin into the world, and death came by sin. Then it says And so DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men FOR (because of) that all have sinned.
It is not saying sin passed on all men, it is saying death.
You got one thing right, the wages of sin (not being born) is death. But do babies sin? NO, the scriptures tell us that.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Had Esau and Jacob sinned when they were babies in their mother's womb? NO, Paul says they had done no evil. Therefore death could not have passed on them, because the wages of sin (not being born) is death.
The wages of SIN is death. The scriptures do not say the wages of being born is death. You are reading that into scripture when it is not there.
It's amazing how false doctrine can blind one's mind. This verse actually refutes Original Sin, and folks look right past it.
The funny thing is, these same folks who think the scriptures teach that every baby is born a sinner will say God does not send any baby to hell. They really do not believe in Original Sin and cannot bring themselves to truly believe it. Deep in their heart they know all babies are innocent and do not deserve to go to hell, and so they make up non-scriptural reasons for babies to be saved. They will say God shows them "special grace". Why? If babies are so evil and wicked, then they deserve to go to hell like everyone else.
But they don't really believe that. Only the most hard-core Calvinist believes babies should go to hell.
The very fact that so many people are naturally repulsed at the thought of babies going to hell shows they really do not believe babies are sinners at all.
Oh....MY....Goodness....Gracious....you actually brought out the "babies cry when nothing is wrong with them thing".....That is truly hilarious....
I thought that kind of reasoning made sense when I was roughly twelve years old.....but....then I grew up and put away "childish" things...
Babies aren't "lying" when they cry....they are utterly dependent and when they are hungry, it truly scares them. They don't KNOW that you went to the store and bought formula 3 hrs. ago...(even though they were there)...they only know they hunger, they are not eating, and it frightens them. It IS an emergency to them...so, they react to an emergency with the way they are wired to react....by crying.
Do you want them submit in writing an official complaint?
Should they file a grievance with the clerk of the court?
I take it you have no children....and have never thought this through in any detail.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
When the angels fell, keeping not their first estate, there was never any proposals to ransom them, for each of those spiritual beings fell in his own individual capacity, and fell hopelessly. But the human race was a unit, represented by one head, Adam, yet here is the mercy of it, it left a way open by which we might be restored; for, if we fell by one Adam, there remained a posssibility of our rising by another Adam, CHRIST.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Job:
29 Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?
30 Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with cleansing powder,
31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.
32 “He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
33 If only there were someone to mediate between us,
someone to bring us together,
34 someone to remove God’s rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.
Job 16 :
18 “Earth, do not cover my blood;
may my cry never be laid to rest!
19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.
20 My intercessor is my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;
21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
as one pleads for a friend.
Thank God we have Jesus who is not only God, but He is one of us we have an eternal Advocate that can speak to the Father on the behalf of us,
sinners. Since He has hidden His face from us, but through Jesus we have an Advocate that will speak on our behalf.
29 Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?
30 Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with cleansing powder,
31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.
32 “He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
33 If only there were someone to mediate between us,
someone to bring us together,
34 someone to remove God’s rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.
Job 16 :
18 “Earth, do not cover my blood;
may my cry never be laid to rest!
19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.
20 My intercessor is my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;
21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
as one pleads for a friend.
Thank God we have Jesus who is not only God, but He is one of us we have an eternal Advocate that can speak to the Father on the behalf of us,
sinners. Since He has hidden His face from us, but through Jesus we have an Advocate that will speak on our behalf.
You have to wonder if this type of perverted thinking leads to child abuse. After all, if you think your crying 2 month old is lying, maybe he deserves a spanking.
This just shows how sick this type of thinking is. Jesus said we must be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus didn't specify any particular children here, he just said "little children". So all little children are innocent.
Jesus said childen have angels who always behold his Father's face.
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Just shows how false doctrine can warp the mind of seemingly intelligent people.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Here goes the word twist again,Lol I said nothing of them being hungry. Of course they will cry when they are hungry. They also will cry when nothing is wrong with them to get your attention and when you go to them and pick them up they stop crying.
In a way....that is one of the most enlightening things I have ever heard you say on this board.
For YEARS I bought into this "Original Guilt" garbage, and used to seek out innumerable possible scenarios whereby a "guilty sinner" (an infant) might possibly be "saved" without having put their faith in Jesus Christ...That's EXACTLY what we do. I did it for ages.
I used to banter and conjure up all SORTS of crazy ideas about why infants go to HEAVEN. I must admit...that I (along with everyone else) pulled those reasons straight out of the same place that the prisoners I work with hide their drugs and cell-phones
Truth is...the Scriptures are so much simpler than that.
There is no one who can rightly believe the Scripture, and tell you that infants go to heaven if they believe in Original Guilt.
Some horrific Theologies, however, are so vicious and heartless, that they at least sacrifice most infants unto Molech and eternal torment in order to maintain logical consistency by believing that MANY (if not most) of those infants actually merely burn in hell. And they glorify God in it. I have a begrudging and sickening form of respect for creatures who are willing to admit that. It makes God a truly monstrous being of course, but it is logically consistent :thumbs:
Is it wrong for a baby to want attention from his mother or father? Babies want to be loved.
This shows just how evil this false doctrine is.
You are amazing...being "Hungry" was an example...but, even so...do you actually think that their belief that they have a "need" to be picked-up and held is some form of "lie"?
What language precisely should they employ in order to voice their wants???
They make a simple association....when they "cry" their needs are met...and BTW....women/mothers are remarkably wired to respond to the sound of an infants cries....God did that for a reason. Look it up! In fact, the sound of an infants cries literally is proven to cause a woman's breasts to lactate....
How do YOU know that "NOTHING" is wrong with them? All that means is that you do not see an emergency....
Their perception of the scenario is SERIOUSLY NOT the same perception of reality that yours is....
They are frightened...they don't have the information YOU DO! They don't "know" you are only in the "other room"...they don't know that you are their "parent"...and that you would not abandon them.
YOU don't see an "emergency"
THEY DO!!
Honestly....I thought like this when I was roughly twelve, how old are you? Do you have children?
Have you put real thought into this at all?
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In a way....that is one of the most enlightening things I have ever heard you say on this board.
For YEARS I bought into this "Original Guilt" garbage, and used to seek out innumerable possible scenarios whereby a "guilty sinner" (an infant) might possibly be "saved" without having put their faith in Jesus Christ...That's EXACTLY what we do. I did it for ages.
I used to banter and conjure up all SORTS of crazy ideas about why infants go to HEAVEN. I must admit...that I (along with everyone else) pulled those reasons straight out of the same place that the prisoners I work with hide their drugs and cell-phones
Truth is...the Scriptures are so much simpler than that.
There is no one who can rightly believe the Scripture, and tell you that infants go to heaven if they believe in Original Guilt.
Some horrific Theologies, however, are so vicious and heartless, that they at least sacrifice most infants unto Molech and eternal torment in order to maintain logical consistency by believing that MANY (if not most) of those infants actually merely burn in hell. And they glorify God in it. I have a begrudging and sickening form of respect for creatures who are willing to admit that. It makes God a truly monstrous being of course, but it is logically consistent :thumbs:
I did the same thing brother, and I noticed everyone else did too. When I saw all the scriptures that shows we BECOME sinners, or that we are ALIVE AGAIN I realized Original Sin was utterly false. Only the most cruel-hearted person really believes it.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
This is the scripture Paul paraphrased in Romans 3. Do the scriptures say we are born filthy? No, they say we BECOME filthy.
If you were born rich, would you tell folks you BECAME wealthy? No, because you were always rich. But if you were poor and worked hard to acquire wealth, then you would tell folks you BECAME rich.
It is right there, but folks look right past it. Here is another verse they look past.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
No one's clothes start out as filthy rags, but through use they become soiled and torn. It's right there.
Here Isaiah compares us to a leaf. Does a leaf start out dead and dried out? NO, all leaves start out fresh, green, moist and alive. We start out the same way, but because of our sin we FADE like a leaf. It is our sin that carries us away.
Even in Genesis it does not show man starts out evil.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
The word "corrupt" means to go from a good state to a bad state, such as fruit spoiling. A banana starts out good, but if you leave it on the shelf too long it corrupts and turns black.
Genesis also shows men begins to corrupt in his "youth" not when he is born.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
The scriptures do not teach that man is evil from birth, but from his youth. This is around 10-12 years old. This is when people choose which way they will go in life, when most begin to commit crime who turn into lifetime criminals, and when most people accept Jesus as their Saviour.
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How do you know nothing else is wrong? How do you know their stomach doesn't hurt, or their back? Do you realize many children have subluxations for years due to 9 months in the womb and delivery? How do you know they aren't sad, or had a nightmare? The 'babies lie when they cry nonsense' is purely a result of Augustinianism. Its sick.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Babies as well as children as well as grown men can become spoiled and want attention which is self love. This is the seed of Adam.
Yes....babies are evil "liars" when they cry for the love and affection and re-inforcement and security of being held by the only protectors they are aware of in their World...:laugh::laugh:
Babies by nature are self-centered, this is a form of preservation. God made them this way. They have no other way to communicate with us except by crying.
Being a baby is not easy, they throw up, cut teeth, growing pains, go to the bathroom, all sorts of nasty stuff. I'm telling ya, it would kill us adults if we had to go through what a baby goes through. It is a wonder they do not cry more.
You have allowed this false doctrine to warp your thinking. Jesus ALWAYS spoke good of little children.
Now, I will say this, a baby being self centered leads to sin. A baby gets used to having it's way and before long EXPECTS to get it's way. So a baby will begin to be truly selfish in time. But they do not start out that way. At first it is almost instinct for self preservation.
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