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Are All Men Drawn Equally?

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webdog

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Luke, it's getting real old where you pick apart what someone says and try to spin it into what you want to hear. P4T saw what I was trying to say...why can't you?

The fact you tell someone you love them is telling them you believe they are worthy. God so love the world (sinful mankind) that He gave. You honestly thing HIS image bearers have no worth to Hm?!? Like I said...THAT'S ON YOU.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Luke, it's getting real old where you pick apart what someone says and try to spin it into what you want to hear. P4T saw what I was trying to say...why can't you?

The fact you tell someone you love them is telling them you believe they are worthy. God so love the world (sinful mankind) that He gave. You honestly thing HIS image bearers have no worth to Hm?!? Like I said...THAT'S ON YOU.

There's no spinning Webdog on my part.

You just don't understand what you said- and frankly, I am glad. What you said was a horrible thing. Thankfully you don't really KNOW what it is that you were saying.

Do you think God is mistaken about you?

You say- I am not worthy. That is either true or false. Which is it?

Then you say- God felt I was worthy. Was God's feelings accurate or inaccurate? Was God right or wrong about his feelings?

Either you or God is right- you both can't say opposite things and both be right.

If it is, in your mind, a matter of perspective, like this: "I think I am not worthy but God sees me AS worthy" then guess what- you are wrong. God cannot see things other than they are. Your perspective is the one that is off in this scenario not God's. Therefore, if God sees you AS worthy- then you ARE- plain and simple.

But the fact of the matter is that God does NOT nor ever HAS seen you as worthy. He died for UNWORTHY sinners, sinners he KNEW were totally UNWORTHY and totally NOT WORTH the staggering sacrifice of Christ.

That's why salvation is all of GRACE- GRACE is not God saving people who he feels are worthy. Grace is God saving people he KNOWS are NOT worthy.

Why?

Ephesians 2- "That in the ages to come he MIGHT SHOW the exceeding riches of his GRACE in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

Which is it Webdog? Were you worthy of the blood of Christ or not? If God saw you as worthy then you were. So will you stand by this statement that God saw you as worthy or recant or retreat from this discussion?
 

webdog

Active Member
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Luke, it's not even worth the time. You would fight and argue yourself if possible. When you tell me "you just don't understand what you said", that is just over the line. I'm not stupid.

Have you posted the Baptistboard's link to your church? I would love for some of your members to visit this site and tell us if this is how you interact with
them.

This coming from someone saying...
Luke said:
I find this insulting. I always think it is belittling to say that someone doesn;t even know their own position.
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
It doesn't increase your credibility that you are old. There are millions of old Catholics and Mormons and JW's and Satan Worshipers.

Bernie Madoff (sp?)was old when he cheated scores of people out of their retirement.

Kenneth Lay was probably about your age when he destroyed the lives of scores of people.

There are multitudes of old stupid people as well as young stupid people.

I don't know how you pointing out that you are old helps you at all.

On the other token there have been plenty of young geniuses and heroes.

Spurgeon took New Park Street Chapel which became later Metropolitan Tabernacle at the age of 19.

I am 31. I have been preaching for 15 years- how long have you been preaching? For fifteen years I have vociferously studied the Bible. By God's great grace, I have baptized over a hundred people.

What about your old age makes you more credible than me?





It is a simple law of nature that God put in place- Cause and Effect. For every effect there is a cause.

If John believed and Jack did not (the effect) there is a cause for it. This the crux of the matter between Arminianism and Calvinism. What is the CAUSE of salvation???

The Calvinist holds the consistent position that it is all of God- not just the provision of salvation (on that we all agree) but the process of salvation too.

You guys want the cause- the reason why John believed and Jack did not- to be human. We believe it is divine.




This is not true. There is no reason to expect that at all. There are factors like the emotional make up and personality of the people from birth and how those personalities hold up under certain circumstances. There are a host of factors that your story does not even come CLOSE to accounting for. And your story does not cause one to EXPECT that things would happen a certain way.



Again, the factors that are not included are more numerous than can be enunciated.

Those factors are all causes.



If anything, her circumstances probably drove her to Christ- if anything I would expect HER to be MORE prone to accept Christ than the other. Your story does not help your case.

With Jesus we saw that sinful people in the depths of despair were far more likely to receive his message than those who were raised in religious backgrounds.



The opposite is true in your story as I just enunciated.



The fact that the children are holy has nothing at all to do with whether or not they will come to Christ.




God left his creation unsupervised??? Where do you get this??




That is not at all the crux of what God tells Cain- not at all.

He said sin lieth at the door. The point is that Cain did evil because Cain was evil.



All of this is nothing but assumption and not taught in the Bible anywhere.



God IS not willing that anyone should perish- that is true. It is not the immediate will of God that ANY should perish. He does LOVE the WORLD. But for the greater good (which is NOT about man) God is ultimately willing to allow them to perish that his holy purposes might be fulfilled.



A refused the urging of the Holy Spirit for the same reason we ALL refuse the urging of the Holy Spirit- she is wicked to the core. So are we all.

A refused the urging of the Holy Spirit, not for some reasons you ASSUME, but for reasons the Bible makes clear- The carnal mind is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN IT BE.



R accepted Christ for the exact same reason ALL who accept Christ do. It is spelled out very clearly in Scripture- THOSE he called he justified and those he justied he also glorified. Romans 8



No sir. There is no next step in your mind because you can't see it. But it is a simple LAW of NATURE that for every effect there is a cause.
There is a CAUSE for why people will what they will.

The problem with Arminians and those not reformed is that they CANNOT understand this. They think man's will HAS NO CAUSE. There is no CAUSE for WHY men choose what they CHOOSE.

But this violates logic and the Word of God.

THERE IS A CAUSE for why people choose what they choose.

WHY does John CHOOSE to follow Christ and WHY does Jack refuse?

Is it beCAUSE John is better than Jack?

Or is it beCAUSE God changed John's will?

It is one or the other- refusing to take this step is what leaves you in darkness on this matter.


Luke:

"Old is not necessarily the issue" You are correct, people can be dumb at any age. It is not lost on me (perhaps others) that you "seem to be" attempting to label Menagerie with the "stupid" label.

In fact, by your "tone" you "seem" to attempt to label anyone who does not "goose step" behind you similarly.

Though not an axiom that we gain wisdom as we age, it is most certainly a tendency that we do, particularly if we are believers desiring to grow in our faith and knowledge.

I hope as your (grow, age, mature) in your life and faith, you learn to be a little less polemical and dogmatic, for if you do, your passion for things of God could serve His kingdom mightily. If you "choose" not to, you will narrow your ability to be a witness and example to the world around you.

Mercy, peace and Love.
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
quantumfaith said:
Old is not necessarily the issue" You are correct, people can be dumb at any age. It is not lost on me (perhaps others) that you "seem to be" attempting to label Menagerie with the "stupid" label.

QF, being called stupid by Luke doesn't even raise my hackles. Thank you for your defense though.

What really bothers me is "SIR". I've been a member here for 7 years and until lately I was never mistaken for a man. I've even posted in the last couple of days that I am a WOMAN. I'm beginning to wonder if I need to get one of the mods to change my user name to something more distinctly female. :confused:

For the rest, I'm coming back in a little while with a rebuttal. Like yesterday, I'm not going to have much time to do anything but read today as I have quite a bit to do, but I'll have a reply for Luke ready pretty soon. I hear him trying to hold his breath until I post next. :laugh:
 

glfredrick

New Member
luke, it's not even worth the time. You would fight and argue yourself if possible. When you tell me "you just don't understand what you said", that is just over the line. I'm not stupid.

Have you posted the baptistboard's link to your church? I would love for some of your members to visit this site and tell us if this is how you interact with
them.

This coming from someone saying...

moderators, this is absolutely un-called for...
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
moderators, this is absolutely un-called for...
Why is that? It's ok for one person to say it's belittling and insulting to say you don't know your own position...and then turn around and do the exact same thing?
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
QF, being called stupid by Luke doesn't even raise my hackles. Thank you for your defense though.

What really bothers me is "SIR". I've been a member here for 7 years and until lately I was never mistaken for a man. I've even posted in the last couple of days that I am a WOMAN. I'm beginning to wonder if I need to get one of the mods to change my user name to something more distinctly female. :confused:

For the rest, I'm coming back in a little while with a rebuttal. Like yesterday, I'm not going to have much time to do anything but read today as I have quite a bit to do, but I'll have a reply for Luke ready pretty soon. I hear him trying to hold his breath until I post next. :laugh:


Nobody called you stupid.

I said there are plenty of old people who are stupid just as there are plenty of young people that are stupid.

I think I can speak for several young people on baptistboard that the "I've been saved longer that you've been ALIVE" bit is meaningless and frustrating.

If you don't want people to respond to you in a frustrated manner then don't frustrate them by saying that you have a leg up on them because you are so old.

If you took it as though I was calling you stupid- I apologize. That was not my intent.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
"Old is not necessarily the issue" You are correct, people can be dumb at any age. It is not lost on me (perhaps others) that you "seem to be" attempting to label Menagerie with the "stupid" label.

I don't think so Quantum- not based on my actual words. I don't think that comes through. I think the reason you think that is because of your preconceived notion of me that you carry to my words.

Me simply saying that using the old "I'm old" bit doesn't carry water because there are plenty of old stupid people as well as stupid young people should not give the impression that I am call M stupid any more than I am calling myself stupid.
In fact, by your "tone" you "seem" to attempt to label anyone who does not "goose step" behind you similarly.

This may be true. I don't actually think that but it may come across that way.

Though not an axiom that we gain wisdom as we age, it is most certainly a tendency that we do, particularly if we are believers desiring to grow in our faith and knowledge.

Yes, I think it is true to some degree. But it does not account for the fact that there are hundreds of millions of old heretics in the world.


I hope as your (grow, age, mature) in your life and faith, you learn to be a little less polemical and dogmatic, for if you do, your passion for things of God could serve His kingdom mightily. If you "choose" not to, you will narrow your ability to be a witness and example to the world around you.

This is greatly appreciated- seriously. Feel free to make these remarks to me ANY time. I recognize the value of them and think that they DO help me to be more amiable as I ought to be. So from my heart- Thank you.

I do request one thing- please always do it, as I think you have hear, genuinely for my benefit and not to discredit me or demean me or discredit me in a debate. When it is given to help push me in the right direction, as I feel this was, it is GREATLY appreciated.
 
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glfredrick

New Member
Why is that? It's ok for one person to say it's belittling and insulting to say you don't know your own position...and then turn around and do the exact same thing?


To call for a man's church to be publicly displayed so that others, perhaps yourself, can exude your presence beyond this board is the most un-called for action I've ever seen on a forum like this. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Either deal with the man here or leave it lay. Getting personal in this fashion is an outrage.

Luke has his own problems with being abrasive in the way he tosses about invectives, but he is not advocating that we expose you to your church. If you don't see the distinction between those two positions then you are beyond hope.
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Since Preacher4truth posted first, I'm going to answer him first. My replies in blue.

Nice emotionally charged story, of which emotion I will not allow to detract from the fact that salvation and choosing is not of us.

Salvation is not of us. God set up the process, I don't deny that. Where we differ is man's role in the process that God set up. It may be that we have "irreconcilable differences" that we'll have to live with.

Romans 9:16 says it is not of us. It actually shows us it is definitely not because we chose. Not to him that willeth, or that is, determines, or chooses it, but it is of Him that calleth.

God shews mercy to whom He will. Look at the context.

Absolutely, look at the context. The entirety of Romans 9 is why God first chose Isreal and then turned to the Gentiles and offered them salvation. Why was that?

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Isreal refused to exercise faith and tried instead to substitute works for faith and God said it was a stumbling block to the simplicity of the salvation He offered.


Of course we would all assume the other girl would have decided to walk with God. Our reason doesn't dictate Sovereign will. It is not based on our finite understanding, God showed His mercy on the one, the other doesn't look like that has happened. It could happen later, who knows? But this is showing us God is in charge of this, not our reason, and not our choosing.

Since we are in Romans 9, lets talk about Jacob and Easu. Did God choose Jacob over Easu for the purposes of His own? Absolutely. Does that mean that Easu couldn't have been saved? Not in the least! Easu could have accepted that his place in God's plan was different, even accepted that his place was less important than Jacob's, but HE REFUSED. His pride, like that of Cain's got in the way of his faith, but it was Easu that allowed it to happen.

I don't believe the story concerning Cain proves we have free will. But I am going to look into that.

Let me help you out. Go back and look at Gen 4:6-7. What does God Himself tell Cain?

I just feel like if someone paints an emotional sympathetic picture to illustrate something then they feel that all of those emotional feelings it lends then makes the assumption true, and Biblical. A fuzzy feeling does not mean it is Biblically accurate.

You and Luke like to poohpooh stories, but Christ used them all the time in His teachings.

I refer back to Romans 9:16, and its context.

I don't believe the interpretation of the story above is Biblically accurate whatsoever. I look at it in light of what God has said concerning whom He chooses, not at all as to what some person chooses. Salvation is all of Him.

I just think it is dangerous to use a story, and say "true story" as if that makes it then Biblically accurate, and our interpretation of if Biblically accurate, because it is a "true story."

You missed the point here and so did Luke. The story is a real life episode that illustrates the principal I was discussing. (Much as Christ did with His parables) Whether or not you believe the PRINCIPAL is Biblical says nothing of whether or not I correctly related the story. I think most folks can tell the difference between principal and episode. (my English teacher would call it theme and plot if I remember correctly)

If you say my story is untrue, then you have called me a liar. (not a nice thing to do) If you call the principal Biblically unsound, well, we are all entitled to our opinions. (even though Luke doesn't appear to think so :p )
 

glfredrick

New Member
Why is that? It's ok for one person to say it's belittling and insulting to say you don't know your own position...and then turn around and do the exact same thing?


Let's try a little experiment, just for fun.

Somebody walked up to me and put a Bible tract in my hand and said, You need to read this! The way he said it really bothered me, so I took the pamphlet and put it back right in front of him. After he walked out of the church, I sensed the Holy Spirit telling me to take the tract back. It was irresistible, so I picked it up and put it into my pocket.

Do you agree or disagree with the quote above?
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
To call for a man's church to be publicly displayed so that others, perhaps yourself, can exude your presence beyond this board is the most un-called for action I've ever seen on a forum like this. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Either deal with the man here or leave it lay. Getting personal in this fashion is an outrage.

Luke has his own problems with being abrasive in the way he tosses about invectives, but he is not advocating that we expose you to your church. If you don't see the distinction between those two positions then you are beyond hope.
When did I say his church should be publicly displayed? Deal with what I said, not what you wanted to hear. I asked if he posted OUR link here to HIS church's site like many churches including my own do when a pastor interacts online with different blogs, forums, etc. I would be interested to know if he only talks the way he does here, or if this is how he deals with those he is supposed to be shepherding, too on a day to day basis. If my pastor interacted with others on here in front of the world the way Luke does, I'd be looking for a different church home for my family. I would want to know how he was the other 6 days a week.
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Let's try a little experiment, just for fun.



Do you agree or disagree with the quote above?
I'm not a guinea pig, and if you are going to interact with me here on the BB, it's not only on your terms. I will not be brushed off in one thread and treated like a child on another.
 

Havensdad

New Member
I NEVER said that. I can't understand who said what since you cannot seem to get the quote feature right here on the BB.

Here is what I said "Well, if you want to diminish the value of those made in His image, that He felt were worthy to be sacrificed for...that's on you. He said it. I believe it."

Here is what God has said "For God so loved that world, that He gave...".

When will the ad hominems stop, Luke? Lunacy?!? I know I"m not worthy, but if in God's eye HE deems us so...who in the world are you to question HIM?!?

He did not "deem us worthy." He chose to show mercy, for the purpose of displaying His own glory, despite the fact that we were infinitely unworthy. The idea that their is any "worth" attached to us, is indeed disturbing.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Luke, it's not even worth the time. You would fight and argue yourself if possible. When you tell me "you just don't understand what you said", that is just over the line. I'm not stupid.

Have you posted the Baptistboard's link to your church? I would love for some of your members to visit this site and tell us if this is how you interact with
them.

This coming from someone saying...

I asked, "Will you stand by this statement of your s that God sees you as Worthy of the SACRIFICE of Christ, or recant or retreat?"

You chose to retreat. I knew you would have to do one of those options.

I you had kept posting on this matter defending your original statement you would have dug a deep hole for yourself knowing that ALL would see that you are wrong that God sees us as WORTHY of the sacrifice of Christ.

I think the nobler thing to do would be to simply say, "I misspoke. It is NOT true, in spite of the fact that I said it was, that God sees me as WORTHY of the sacrifice of Christ."
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
I don't think so Quantum- not based on my actual words. I don't think that comes through. I think the reason you think that is because of your preconceived notion of me that you carry to my words.

Me simply saying that using the old "I'm old" bit doesn't carry water because there are plenty of old stupid people as well as stupid young people should not give the impression that I am call M stupid any more than I am calling myself stupid.


This may be true. I don't actually think that but it may come across that way.



Yes, I think it is true to some degree. But it does not account for the fact that there are hundreds of millions of old heretics in the world.




This is greatly appreciated- seriously. Feel free to make these remarks to me ANY time. I recognize the value of them and think that they DO help me to be more amiable as I ought to be. So from my heart- Thank you.

I do request one thing- please always do it, as I think you have hear, genuinely for my benefit and not to discredit me or demean me or discredit me in a debate. When it is given to help push me in the right direction, as I feel this was, it is GREATLY appreciated.


Thank you for being a little "softer", I will try very hard to always be respectful and mindful that I am sharing with a fellow believer, both who accept, acknowledge and hold fast the essentials of the christian faith.

Mercy, Peace and Love in abundance.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
He did not "deem us worthy." He chose to show mercy, for the purpose of displaying His own glory, despite the fact that we were infinitely unworthy. The idea that their is any "worth" attached to us, is indeed disturbing.
When did you become God's PR director? :) I won't diminish Christ's death for sinners, and wont' try to speak for Him. I know that those I love have worth to me.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
When did I say his church should be publicly displayed? Deal with what I said, not what you wanted to hear. I asked if he posted OUR link here to HIS church's site like many churches including my own do when a pastor interacts online with different blogs, forums, etc. I would be interested to know if he only talks the way he does here, or if this is how he deals with those he is supposed to be shepherding, too on a day to day basis.

I will go ahead and tell you, as I have before: I do NOT talk to my flock the way I talk to you.

This is for several reasons:

1. You are not in my flock.

2. I do not debate with members of my flock. I feed them.

3. It is illogical to purport that one has to talk to everyone the way he talks to anyone. That is silly, isn't it? Jesus did not speak to the woman caught in adultery the way he spoke to the Pharisees. Different people in different circumstances talk require different types of communication.

4. A debate is not comparable to a counseling session or to pastoral care in any meaningful way.

5. The Bible says that our speech ought always be seasoned with grace- but that does not mean that we are never to be blunt or the very one who wrote that (Paul) was a hypocrite.

6. NONE of my church members are as difficult to deal with as you. But even if they were I would not debate them or seek to obliterate their ideas. They are my sheep- you are not.
 

Havensdad

New Member
When did you become God's PR director? :) I won't diminish Christ's death for sinners, and wont' try to speak for Him. I know that those I love have worth to me.

?

I am just obeying Jesus' commands...

Luk 17:10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have only done what was our duty.'"
 
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