Are all reformed baptists Under "new Covenant theology" then?

The danger, though, is that we fall into a pattern of automatically assuming that because one goes by a particular "label," they are in fact in agreement with the doctrine of that particular faith or fellowship.

Surely we do not assume that those that surround us when we fellowship in the House of the Lord are "up to snuff" concerning the doctrinal statement of our faith?

Chances are, at least half of those we fellowship with may crack the book only when in Church.

There are just too many diverse beliefs even in a fellowship that has sound preaching and teaching to rely on a label to discern a person's relationship and level of knowledge in the Lord.

But that is just my view. When I speak to a Mormon "witness" I have more reason to "slap the label" on him, because he is the spokesman for their doctrinal beliefs, and has in fact been trained, and is being trained to do so.

But I have met enough Pentecostals that think ecstatic speech is mad to know that labeling will limit us in our outreach for Christ.

Same thing I do with everyone else...I find out the basis for his belief.

If we can get those that promote not only questionable, but easily seen heretical doctrines to present the basis for their beliefs, we will open the door for examination that God will perform in their hearts, not us.

We can change minds, but someone can come behind us and change it back. But if God speaks to their hearts through His word, then the error corrected will stand, and at the very least, they will not forget that "encounter."


*EDIT* I noticed I didn't finish this thought: I will take him to the word. Usually we can get a decent counter to some of the popular false doctrines which are out there today, even in a brief encounter.

To be honest, I have a hard time when it comes to "counting someone as a brother." Just being honest. There are those that I fellowship that I believe to be in Christ, many of them, really, but how much time do we really get to spend with our Church Family?

On the forums I am greatly discouraged when I "make a friend" only to later "lose that friend" due to the fact that there is disagreement over some doctrine or the other. Don't take this the wrong way: I will forsake that "friendship" for the sake of remaining true to that which I believe God has led me to an understanding in. The problem is that if a difference arises, we must automatically view them as not a "friend," or not a brother. If the only brothers I have are those that are in agreement with me on every point...I will never be able to call anyone my brother...lol. I have "brothers," but when I speak of losing them it is more in the sense of having brothers that "stick close," if you see what I mean.

In the field, I know those that proclaim Christ, but as for counting them my brothers, many of them I just do not know well enough.

For the hypothetical man presented, I would neither count him my brother, nor discount the possibility.

If the possibility that I might encounter an angel unaware exists, should I not consider the possibility that I have encountered a brother that has just not been taught in the word?

I am to witness, not judge. I am to make disciples, not friends, right?

I can understand that. But I am aware of "Baptists" that teach their members how to "speak in tongues." I would not assume that someone that calls themself a Baptist is...or isn't.

God bless, fellas, thanks for the replies.

 

Or that original sin, election & predestination are not doctrinally relevant because God's provisions are effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with God and his offer of grace. Bizarre right! At that point you MUST Qualify truth from the false.

 

Darrell C, One thing that EVERY Christian has to come to grips with is the fact that we are united under ONE GOD, ONE SAVIOR, ONE HOLY SPIRIT, and in ONE KINGDOM.

God is all about relationships, not separation, though for first level theological offenses, where heretical doctrine is espoused, separation may occur.

Those who habitually separate from the brothers and sisters in the Lord do so to their own peril, for they have in fact instituted another religion apart from the one instituted by Jesus Christ who prayed that we all be one as He and the Father are one.

If you have problems in finding and retaining friendly relationships within the church or apart from the church, perhaps it is time to check your own take on doctrine so as to not be standing apart from God on the day He calls your name. He, after all, created us for loving relationships, both between ourselves as fellow partakers of His grace and with Him. Both are part of the Christian walk.

 

Maybe the question should have been, today by what covenant is one put into the church which Jesus said he would build?

Assuming of course it's this church which contains all the saved whether reformed Baptist of some other kind.

Does this take place by covenant?

 

DarrelC
thanks for your response...this is an important and worthwhile topic for discussion and thought......many questions come to mind here....
I think we have similar thoughts overall, and i am not sure i have easy solutions to these issues.

All I was trying to press you on was to understand how you sort of manuver your way around the various people we meet in or out of the church ...who profess to believe something, or someone.
I find labels somewhat helpful......but agree with you big time when you say this:

Sadly this seems to be the case more often than not ...in the churches I have seen....it should not be so......I ponder 1 cor 12:12-27
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


I will take more time with this later on...I want to consider the points you offered.....and see what comes to mind....

 

Hello GLFredrick, I appreciate the response, but as I said, I do have friends that I call brethren, however, as I also said, "how much time do we really spend with our Church Family."

As a heating and air contractor, well, just do not run into a lot of believers. Many that have a belief in God, but not a relationship, perhaps.

You can let me know as you learn the basis of my belief and the doctrine I embrace...if you would like to be my friend. :smilewinkgrin:

Usually, though, in doctrinal discussion, even among those that seem to be friends, there can be problems. Especially if you present your doctrine in a manner which is straightforward, and may disagree with those of your "friends."

Is this to say that my salvation is in question? I can understand that, it is par for the course, really. But, as I said, try not to make a decision as to whether you will offer or deny friendship until you know what it is that I believe. If after you understand my beliefs, and understand better who I am, perhaps then would be the time to make that call. It's okay if you question my salvation in the meantime...I will not get offened.

So the Christian walk guarantees that we will be friends to all? Surely you do not believe that. Not that we cannot put forth the effort, in the sense that we do not revile those we come into contact with, but if we are friends to all, would that indicate that either we have been very lucky to fall in with "other superb believers," or might it be that perhaps we are not so forthcoming with a Gospel that will surely, at some point...offend.

God bless.

 

Hello Iconoclast, excellent reply.

I hope I did not come across as condescending concerning others in the Church, I do not mean to be, really. But I do recognize this as a reality. I have striven since not long after being saved to be ready to gve an answer to any man, truly motivated by a desire to lead the lost to Christ, and will admit that as scripture states, knowledge puffeth up...lol. God has shown me the arrogance that can be a result when knowledge increases, and I try to be sensitive to His rebuke when I fail in that area.

Have to get going, but I will end this session with this thought: As the scripture you presented teaches, there is a diversity in the body of Christ, and that includes levels of understanding and maturity. And it is not guaranteed that these two aspects grow in a parallel manner, meaning, some may gain understanding and then have to learn application of that knowledge in their lives. Though I do think this is true of all of us to a certain extent.

I do feel, though, that leadership within the body is important, particularly in the local fellowship, where the Pastor and teachers may gain a "pedestal relationship" sometimes, and usually to the dismay of the these.

What we teach is also important, and though the Pastor and Teachers have a solid grasp and are excellent in relaying truth to the fellowship, sometimes the tendency to hold back the meat may cause the fellowship to mature and increase in understanding at a rate which may be slower than necessary.

I say this based upon being a member of a number of fellowships, not because I could not get along or my doctrine was different (this for the sake of GL), but due to lack of nourishment, moving, and once, because Church discipline was swept under the rug to "keep the peace."

Anyway, sorry for blathering on (last post for the night...and I could go all night, so I hate to leave), look forward to seeing you expand on what you began.

God bless.

 

I do believe the word of God states; We receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith.

Does that have to do with a covenant? Well maybe this one.

And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The faith they heard about that brought them the Spirit was that, that seed of Abraham, the only begotten Son of God came and was obedient unto death even the death of the cross and God the Father by his Spirit raised him from the dead. He ascended on high received the promise of the Holy Spirit and then we received the Spirit.

It was that covenant with Abraham by which we have a connection with God the Father.

Reformed or not.

 

.



.

pt 1

Hello DarrelC

 

pt2

Friends should be able to disagree and work through issues....on a forum you over time make certain distant friendships. Having not met the people face to face is a hindrance...some claim to be Pastors, Christians, teachers, missionaries,,,,but sometimes you just have to wonder what is going on...many make claims

Take people at their profession, until they show otherwise.

Yes....think the best..but use caution..for your sake and theirs.
?

We are to judge righteous judgement..jn 7:24.....it is ok to make disciples and friends also....
Psalm 119:63
I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts
Proverbs 13:20
He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed

 

What are you saying Percho? Are you saying that a "Reformed Baptist" is automatically a "Covenant Theology" believer? If your led to that conclusion, you'd be wrong. But if you are looking for a dividing line, then look to Election vs Humanism. More succinctly, either God is either Totally Sovereign or He is not.

 

Hello Iconoclast, and thanks for the conversation, it is not often that I get the chance just to have a discussion rather than debate, and I appreciate every occasion very much.

If we rely upon the Holy Spirit to work His good will in our lives, I believe we would see more of this on the forums.

I do, though , have to admit that I also enjoy debate...lol, and opportunity is neverending in the climate of the world concerning doctrine.

Not just familiar, but the very sentiment I had when I began attending a fellowship after salvation. I profeesed Christ in a Church that was not that close to where I lived, and began attending a local SB Church.

As I sat among them, I felt like ducking down, so as to be less noticable among this group of holy people.

I can relate fully.

Same here. But then something else happened. By the word of God as well as my own thoughts on who the people of God were, I had a very high estimation of the people I attended worship with. But, as I began to know people, as you did, I began to realize that...they were just people, like me.

There was a bit of disappointment, which really led to almost a condescending attitude. Perhaps I should omit the word almost.

What I realize now is that between an elevated opinion of myself, coupled with a diminutive view of those around me, pride worked it's way into my heart. Or perhaps I should say, the pride that existed in my heart began to interfere with the work God sought to accomplish in me.

As I began learning, highly motivated by a desire to witness and be ready with an answer, I also began established this condescending attitude for people that had been saved longer, but were, in my estimation, very ignorant of God's word.

But God would reveal who it was that was ignorant. Over the years, I have realized that the more I learn, my own ignorance becomes more clear. That did not keep me from years of pride, and I am still working on that even today.

The forums have helped greatly with this.

As did I. But, what fellowship, what denomination...does not?

As I focused my condescending attitude upon those I felt were in error, I was unable to examine myself.

This is one of the reasons I try not to take for granted that anyone that claims a particular faith...actually holds to the doctrines of that faith. It is simply a matter of necessity to discover the individual basis of belief of every person we come into contact with.

lol...can you blame him? It seems that there is a general consensus among many preachers and teachers that the general congregation is not able to digest the meatier things, and perhaps, to a certain extent, they are right. But I believe that if that could be changed in the pattern of instruction, we would see a different body of Christ.

Consider Paul, in his writings to fellowships that were engaged in some very immature proceedings. Yet he did not fail to include doctrine that even today has some very mature and well developed believers scratching their head.

But individually, each one learns according to the ability given by God, and we have to recognize that all members learn and progress differently.

This is a passage that I have struggled with myself. I would not judge the teacher too hard, for no man can have all the answers, nor be ready to answer or address every passage. Sometimes, we just have to say...I don't know.

And he was perhaps embarrased. No one likes to admit that they do not understand a passage...lol.

Agreed.

Even Pastors cannot be expected to have all the answers.

Okay, I will tell you briefly my take on this:

It is given (the quote) to illustrate God's provision for righteousness. Under the law, the First Covenant, man was given the word of God, specifically...Israel. As we read that if righteousness could have come from anything, it should have been through the law.

Paul makes it clear, though, that the righteousness of Christ is not through the law, and the two are contrasted, rather than Paul promoting the law. This he never did in the sense of failing to preach Christ, and Him crucified. We see the same thing in Hebrews 10, probably the best book for believers to to come to an understanding of the First Covenant, or, the Covenant of Law...and the New Covenant (and I throw this in to swing back to topic...lol).

While we can better understand the law through New Testament revelation, except we understand that which is a constant theme in the New Testament, which is that righteousness comes through Christ alone, we will fail to grasp one of God's greatest blessings for the believer.

Consider:


Romans 10

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


We see our contrast between the law and righteousness through Christ begin immediately.

By the keeping of the law, we see that it was not God's righteousness that they sought after, but their own.


4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


This is Paul's primary thrust in this passage: faith in Christ, by which we attain the righteousness of God. Which Israel utterly failed to do.

And there is no wonder: for if righteousness come by the law, Christ is dead in vain. There was never the possibility from before the foundations of the world that it would not be necessary for Christ to die in the place of sinful man.


5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

This is not to teach that man must obey the law, but again we see that there are two righteousnesses in view: that which is found "of the law," and that which is found in Christ.

I will continue this...

 

And that is the thing to grasp: a wake-up call in our lives. But isn't that the ministry the Spirit of God performs in our lives? To convict us and lead us as we are conformed to the image of Christ?

I would not be too hard on them, my friend, surely there were members among that fellowship that were avid students of the word.

Well, I understand this, really, I felt the same way. As I go to forums I am amazed at some of the things that are presented that are supposed to have a basis in scripture.

However, we have to remember that all of us start out as...babes.

All of us start out with...milk.

It is disheartening to attend a fellowship where milk is the only staple. I would suggest that sunday school is the place for a fuller diet, and also that in the general services, every pastor and preacher probably has in mind (at least should) that among the congregation are going to be lost souls, who are in need of the Gospel presented on a level which they can understand. Sunday mornings, at least, should always convey a straight-forward easily understood message of the Cross.

And despite how long we have been saved, I think we also need to bear in mind that which He bore for us, and why He had need to do so.

But if you feed an unsaved man, and even babes meat...you will choke them, right?

This is perhaps the reason many Pastors teach a basic message in general services. And I would suggest that even as eating stimulates the natural body toward hunger, even so it is with our spirits.

Those that rely upon the ministry of their Church only for spiritual growth will go hungry. At most, this is a four times a week feeding.

So what is it that motivates the believer to feed himself?

Not it...but Who. I think you would agree that it is God that will motivate the believer, give him the hunger for the word, and righteousness in his life, as God's word cleanses him.

Longevity in attendance does not always equate to maturation. There is so much to learn of God in the limited amount of information available to us, and a lifetime is not enough, I think, just to fully grasp the word of God. How much more if one does not have the hunger to learn more.

But it is true, believers have a responsibility to learn, though there are those that just have not understood this yet. Should we despise them? No, but we should seek to be useful in motivating a desire to learn in others.

Again, one of the great things about doctrinal forums.

Well, just to give you something to think about: sometimes there are times when because work is so busy, I reach a point of exhaustion (in fact that is why I have had so much time this week...I am exhausted and have taken time away from work, though I really could not afford to do so. Soon, it will be back to the grind), yet I go to the services anyway. There are times when I could just nod off, but fortunately, I have found a fellowship where the preacher is amazing. An expositor of the highest manner. His love for the word is infectious, and this is what I think allows some to nod off....lack of sufficient administration.

If the word is administered to the congregation in the way it should, where we can see that it is true that these are treasures being brought out, not just a lecture...then more would be interested in that very important aspect of our walk, growing up.


Be back in a bit, and not sure how much time I have, so I will soon have to get back to check the debate side of my visit today...lol.

 

Our first task is to look inward, according to the command of scripture. As we do seek to be useful to the Lord in our ministries, whatever those ministries are, keeping in mind that we also are still in a period of growth, which I believe never ends in this life, will help us to reserve sympathy and compassion for those that are in the place we once were.

But the good news is that when one starts to gain a hunger for the word, it will be an increasing appetite to know the Lord better.

I have a different approach, which stems from a love for Sherlock Holmes when I was a kid: concentrate on what is true, and when falsehood is presented, we will be ready to confront it.

It is good to be aware of the basis of belief for the doctrines which have from the beginning of the Gospel of Christ been in existance, but that will pale in comparidson to understanding the truth of God's word.

If you are sound in God's word, no doctrine, no matter how cleverly presented or defended, will prevail against His truth.

There are those that specialize in ministry to certain cults, and that is good, but not all of us have been called to such a ministry. Most of us, though, will deal with doctrine of demons in the lives of those we come into contact with, especially if we frequent doctrinal forums.

So that is my approach, and it works very well (at least I think it does...lol. Is that my pride rearing it's ugly head again?)

A man that specialized in counterfeit currency was asked, "You must study a lot of counterfeit money?"

"No, he said, I study real money, so I can identify the counterfeit."

And sometimes, well, in my opinion most of the times, a focus on a particular doctrine or group leads to animosity in the life of the very one that seeks to show the love of Christ.

I see this over and over again, it comes up on every forum. And it is a little shameful, in my view, to try to present Christ with a platform of what is nothing less than hatred.

And this I have learned: 1-find out what an individual knows, do not presume to tell him; 2-examine with them the basis for their belief: this will in many cases at the very least show them that they believe something...with no valid basis for that belief.

This is particularly effective when witnessing to atheists. Many of them hate God and the bible because they have received invalid and easily shown to be in error...commentary on the bible.

Of course, any time one is told they are wrong, human nature will usually result in anger, and the topic at hand becomes cloudy, and if you are not careful...lost. They would rather nurse their anger than examine the reason for their anger, which is...they are wrong!

But all is not lost, for there will be planted a seed, one which will battle the rebellious heart.

And thank God for that.

Today many core doctrines are under attack. But if we study the true, we can address the false.

Well, I for one can say that I have not contributed to the error of Pentecostal and Charismatic doctrine. I have lost several "friends" and garnered the animosity of several that while not claiming to be either of these, believe the doctrines we see prevalent in such groups. Thus my earlier comments concerning "friends."

But on the other hand, there are those that despite our disagreement, have not responded in anger and we can not only discuss scripture still, but recognize that the possibility that both belong to the Lord.

It is not my place to judge another in such a manner, that I declare who is saved and who is not. I can look back on my walk and recognize where at one time I also held beliefs that had no basis in scripture as well. It did not mean I was not saved, just ignorant.

Okay, almost through...

 

True. It is disheartening to me on certain forums where people that are desperately in need of counsel are banned.

It is also disheartening to see that animosity is usuall. It is true we are to defend the faith, but I try not to let my emotions get out of control and speak in a manner that may be displeasing to God.

I believe that happens, really. I have a hope that some that I discuss doctrine with do see the weakness in the basis of their belief, and though they do not admit it on the forum they are addressed on, it may be that they will have a different doctrine when they join another.

A capital goal.

As believers discuss these things amongst themselves, I have no problem, but call an atheist to his face an "unbeliever," and we have already started out on a losing course.

This is what I mean.

And in many cases, "desperation" is a good thing to remember. Once I was in a desperate condition due to sin. I was no different concerning righteousness than a lot lizard, and probably more sexually depraved than them (what can I say...I played heavy metal...lol).

Reliance on Him, as you know, must never be forgotten. There have been times when the Lord supplied that which was needed, and most of the times He has guided me in my study just recently, preparing me before the event.

Awesome, no?

And this is truth.

If we study the true, we will be ready to deal with the false. We must decrease (our thoughts and words), and He must increase (our yielding to Him...we are but the body, He is the Head).

And if pressed, we might actually embarass someone. But I know, and agree, with what you speak of. But to be honest, there are not too many people I know that love to discuss scripture...all the time.

Want to end a conversation...talk doctrine...lol.

Agreed, but let's remember we all grow differently, and not all have been, I believe, gifted in ways that lead them to fervent study. Preachers, teachers, and evangelists will almost always be involved in fervent study.

Some members of the body have a different role to play.

I am one that sees every day as the Lord's day. While I enjoy the Lord's day for a number of reasons, I am no holier or obedient on this day than I am the day before or the day after.

As in Romans 10, and the general topic of this thread, we need desperately to understand the difference between the First Covenant and the New.

This is one thing that is never taught, at least, not as it should be, I believe.

When we see the law contrasted with the righteousness of Christ, we cannot fail to see the awesome power of God which He worked in Christ for the benefit and redemption of mankind.

Okay, I may have to come back to "part 2," time is limited, and I need to check on another forum, as well as the "debate side" of this one.

Appreciate the chance for conversation, though, I conoclast, hope this is just the beginning of good discussion of the word of God.

God bless.

 

theocentric vs anthropocentric perspective.