Are all reformed baptists Under "new Covenant theology" then?

[Darrell C]

Darrell C,
Sooner or later the labels are there and are a good thing to a large extent.While not perfect they are better than the alternative.

The danger, though, is that we fall into a pattern of automatically assuming that because one goes by a particular "label," they are in fact in agreement with the doctrine of that particular faith or fellowship.

Surely we do not assume that those that surround us when we fellowship in the House of the Lord are "up to snuff" concerning the doctrinal statement of our faith?

Chances are, at least half of those we fellowship with may crack the book only when in Church.

There are just too many diverse beliefs even in a fellowship that has sound preaching and teaching to rely on a label to discern a person's relationship and level of knowledge in the Lord.

But that is just my view. When I speak to a Mormon "witness" I have more reason to "slap the label" on him, because he is the spokesman for their doctrinal beliefs, and has in fact been trained, and is being trained to do so.

But I have met enough Pentecostals that think ecstatic speech is mad to know that labeling will limit us in our outreach for Christ.

You go to the shopping mall and a person you speak to says he is a christian,but god has taught him that jesus is not god....but was michael the archangel who was made into a man.....he says god taught him this from scripture....what do you do?

Same thing I do with everyone else...I find out the basis for his belief.

If we can get those that promote not only questionable, but easily seen heretical doctrines to present the basis for their beliefs, we will open the door for examination that God will perform in their hearts, not us.

We can change minds, but someone can come behind us and change it back. But if God speaks to their hearts through His word, then the error corrected will stand, and at the very least, they will not forget that "encounter."


*EDIT* I noticed I didn't finish this thought: I will take him to the word. Usually we can get a decent counter to some of the popular false doctrines which are out there today, even in a brief encounter.

how do you respond to him? do you count him as a brother? do you question him about his ideas?

To be honest, I have a hard time when it comes to "counting someone as a brother." Just being honest. There are those that I fellowship that I believe to be in Christ, many of them, really, but how much time do we really get to spend with our Church Family?

On the forums I am greatly discouraged when I "make a friend" only to later "lose that friend" due to the fact that there is disagreement over some doctrine or the other. Don't take this the wrong way: I will forsake that "friendship" for the sake of remaining true to that which I believe God has led me to an understanding in. The problem is that if a difference arises, we must automatically view them as not a "friend," or not a brother. If the only brothers I have are those that are in agreement with me on every point...I will never be able to call anyone my brother...lol. I have "brothers," but when I speak of losing them it is more in the sense of having brothers that "stick close," if you see what I mean.

In the field, I know those that proclaim Christ, but as for counting them my brothers, many of them I just do not know well enough.

For the hypothetical man presented, I would neither count him my brother, nor discount the possibility.

If the possibility that I might encounter an angel unaware exists, should I not consider the possibility that I have encountered a brother that has just not been taught in the word?

I am to witness, not judge. I am to make disciples, not friends, right?

The "labels" are just an easier way to be able torelate to where the other person is theologically!

trick is to make sure both of us are defining the terms in same way!

I can understand that. But I am aware of "Baptists" that teach their members how to "speak in tongues." I would not assume that someone that calls themself a Baptist is...or isn't.

God bless, fellas, thanks for the replies.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Darrell C,
Sooner or later the labels are there and are a good thing to a large extent.While not perfect they are better than the alternative.

You go to the shopping mall and a person you speak to says he is a christian,but god has taught him that jesus is not god....but was michael the archangel who was made into a man.....he says god taught him this from scripture....what do you do? how do you respond to him? do you count him as a brother? do you question him about his ideas?

Or that original sin, election & predestination are not doctrinally relevant because God's provisions are effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with God and his offer of grace. Bizarre right! At that point you MUST Qualify truth from the false.

 

[glfredrick]

Darrell C, One thing that EVERY Christian has to come to grips with is the fact that we are united under ONE GOD, ONE SAVIOR, ONE HOLY SPIRIT, and in ONE KINGDOM.

God is all about relationships, not separation, though for first level theological offenses, where heretical doctrine is espoused, separation may occur.

Those who habitually separate from the brothers and sisters in the Lord do so to their own peril, for they have in fact instituted another religion apart from the one instituted by Jesus Christ who prayed that we all be one as He and the Father are one.

If you have problems in finding and retaining friendly relationships within the church or apart from the church, perhaps it is time to check your own take on doctrine so as to not be standing apart from God on the day He calls your name. He, after all, created us for loving relationships, both between ourselves as fellow partakers of His grace and with Him. Both are part of the Christian walk.

 

[percho]

Maybe the question should have been, today by what covenant is one put into the church which Jesus said he would build?

Assuming of course it's this church which contains all the saved whether reformed Baptist of some other kind.

Does this take place by covenant?

 

[Iconoclast]

The danger, though, is that we fall into a pattern of automatically assuming that because one goes by a particular "label," they are in fact in agreement with the doctrine of that particular faith or fellowship.

Surely we do not assume that those that surround us when we fellowship in the House of the Lord are "up to snuff" concerning the doctrinal statement of our faith?

Chances are, at least half of those we fellowship with may crack the book only when in Church.

There are just too many diverse beliefs even in a fellowship that has sound preaching and teaching to rely on a label to discern a person's relationship and level of knowledge in the Lord.

But that is just my view. When I speak to a Mormon "witness" I have more reason to "slap the label" on him, because he is the spokesman for their doctrinal beliefs, and has in fact been trained, and is being trained to do so.

But I have met enough Pentecostals that think ecstatic speech is mad to know that labeling will limit us in our outreach for Christ.





Same thing I do with everyone else...I find out the basis for his belief.

If we can get those that promote not only questionable, but easily seen heretical doctrines to present the basis for their beliefs, we will open the door for examination that God will perform in their hearts, not us.

We can change minds, but someone can come behind us and change it back. But if God speaks to their hearts through His word, then the error corrected will stand, and at the very least, they will not forget that "encounter."


*EDIT* I noticed I didn't finish this thought: I will take him to the word. Usually we can get a decent counter to some of the popular false doctrines which are out there today, even in a brief encounter.



To be honest, I have a hard time when it comes to "counting someone as a brother." Just being honest. There are those that I fellowship that I believe to be in Christ, many of them, really, but how much time do we really get to spend with our Church Family?

On the forums I am greatly discouraged when I "make a friend" only to later "lose that friend" due to the fact that there is disagreement over some doctrine or the other. Don't take this the wrong way: I will forsake that "friendship" for the sake of remaining true to that which I believe God has led me to an understanding in. The problem is that if a difference arises, we must automatically view them as not a "friend," or not a brother. If the only brothers I have are those that are in agreement with me on every point...I will never be able to call anyone my brother...lol. I have "brothers," but when I speak of losing them it is more in the sense of having brothers that "stick close," if you see what I mean.

In the field, I know those that proclaim Christ, but as for counting them my brothers, many of them I just do not know well enough.

For the hypothetical man presented, I would neither count him my brother, nor discount the possibility.

If the possibility that I might encounter an angel unaware exists, should I not consider the possibility that I have encountered a brother that has just not been taught in the word?

I am to witness, not judge. I am to make disciples, not friends, right?





I can understand that. But I am aware of "Baptists" that teach their members how to "speak in tongues." I would not assume that someone that calls themself a Baptist is...or isn't.

God bless, fellas, thanks for the replies.

DarrelC
thanks for your response...this is an important and worthwhile topic for discussion and thought......many questions come to mind here....
I think we have similar thoughts overall, and i am not sure i have easy solutions to these issues.

All I was trying to press you on was to understand how you sort of manuver your way around the various people we meet in or out of the church ...who profess to believe something, or someone.
I find labels somewhat helpful......but agree with you big time when you say this:

The danger, though, is that we fall into a pattern of automatically assuming that because one goes by a particular "label," they are in fact in agreement with the doctrine of that particular faith or fellowship.

Surely we do not assume that those that surround us when we fellowship in the House of the Lord are "up to snuff" concerning the doctrinal statement of our faith?

Chances are, at least half of those we fellowship with may crack the book only when in Church.

Sadly this seems to be the case more often than not ...in the churches I have seen....it should not be so......I ponder 1 cor 12:12-27
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


I will take more time with this later on...I want to consider the points you offered.....and see what comes to mind....

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C, One thing that EVERY Christian has to come to grips with is the fact that we are united under ONE GOD, ONE SAVIOR, ONE HOLY SPIRIT, and in ONE KINGDOM.

God is all about relationships, not separation, though for first level theological offenses, where heretical doctrine is espoused, separation may occur.

Those who habitually separate from the brothers and sisters in the Lord do so to their own peril, for they have in fact instituted another religion apart from the one instituted by Jesus Christ who prayed that we all be one as He and the Father are one.

If you have problems in finding and retaining friendly relationships within the church or apart from the church, perhaps it is time to check your own take on doctrine so as to not be standing apart from God on the day He calls your name. He, after all, created us for loving relationships, both between ourselves as fellow partakers of His grace and with Him. Both are part of the Christian walk.

Hello GLFredrick, I appreciate the response, but as I said, I do have friends that I call brethren, however, as I also said, "how much time do we really spend with our Church Family."

As a heating and air contractor, well, just do not run into a lot of believers. Many that have a belief in God, but not a relationship, perhaps.

If you have problems in finding and retaining friendly relationships within the church or apart from the church, perhaps it is time to check your own take on doctrine

You can let me know as you learn the basis of my belief and the doctrine I embrace...if you would like to be my friend. :smilewinkgrin:

Usually, though, in doctrinal discussion, even among those that seem to be friends, there can be problems. Especially if you present your doctrine in a manner which is straightforward, and may disagree with those of your "friends."

so as to not be standing apart from God on the day He calls your name.

Is this to say that my salvation is in question? I can understand that, it is par for the course, really. But, as I said, try not to make a decision as to whether you will offer or deny friendship until you know what it is that I believe. If after you understand my beliefs, and understand better who I am, perhaps then would be the time to make that call. It's okay if you question my salvation in the meantime...I will not get offened.

He, after all, created us for loving relationships, both between ourselves as fellow partakers of His grace and with Him. Both are part of the Christian walk

So the Christian walk guarantees that we will be friends to all? Surely you do not believe that. Not that we cannot put forth the effort, in the sense that we do not revile those we come into contact with, but if we are friends to all, would that indicate that either we have been very lucky to fall in with "other superb believers," or might it be that perhaps we are not so forthcoming with a Gospel that will surely, at some point...offend.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

DarrelC
thanks for your response...this is an important and worthwhile topic for discussion and thought......many questions come to mind here....
I think we have similar thoughts overall, and i am not sure i have easy solutions to these issues.

All I was trying to press you on was to understand how you sort of manuver your way around the various people we meet in or out of the church ...who profess to believe something, or someone.
I find labels somewhat helpful......but agree with you big time when you say this:


Sadly this seems to be the case more often than not ...in the churches I have seen....it should not be so......I ponder 1 cor 12:12-27
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


I will take more time with this later on...I want to consider the points you offered.....and see what comes to mind....

Hello Iconoclast, excellent reply.

I hope I did not come across as condescending concerning others in the Church, I do not mean to be, really. But I do recognize this as a reality. I have striven since not long after being saved to be ready to gve an answer to any man, truly motivated by a desire to lead the lost to Christ, and will admit that as scripture states, knowledge puffeth up...lol. God has shown me the arrogance that can be a result when knowledge increases, and I try to be sensitive to His rebuke when I fail in that area.

Have to get going, but I will end this session with this thought: As the scripture you presented teaches, there is a diversity in the body of Christ, and that includes levels of understanding and maturity. And it is not guaranteed that these two aspects grow in a parallel manner, meaning, some may gain understanding and then have to learn application of that knowledge in their lives. Though I do think this is true of all of us to a certain extent.

I do feel, though, that leadership within the body is important, particularly in the local fellowship, where the Pastor and teachers may gain a "pedestal relationship" sometimes, and usually to the dismay of the these.

What we teach is also important, and though the Pastor and Teachers have a solid grasp and are excellent in relaying truth to the fellowship, sometimes the tendency to hold back the meat may cause the fellowship to mature and increase in understanding at a rate which may be slower than necessary.

I say this based upon being a member of a number of fellowships, not because I could not get along or my doctrine was different (this for the sake of GL), but due to lack of nourishment, moving, and once, because Church discipline was swept under the rug to "keep the peace."

Anyway, sorry for blathering on (last post for the night...and I could go all night, so I hate to leave), look forward to seeing you expand on what you began.

God bless.

 

[percho]

I do believe the word of God states; We receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith.

Does that have to do with a covenant? Well maybe this one.

And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The faith they heard about that brought them the Spirit was that, that seed of Abraham, the only begotten Son of God came and was obedient unto death even the death of the cross and God the Father by his Spirit raised him from the dead. He ascended on high received the promise of the Holy Spirit and then we received the Spirit.

It was that covenant with Abraham by which we have a connection with God the Father.

Reformed or not.

 

[Iconoclast]

.



.

pt 1

Hello DarrelC

The danger, though, is that we fall into a pattern of automatically assuming that because one goes by a particular "label," they are in fact in agreement with the doctrine of that particular faith or fellowship.

Having been brought to a saving knowledge by God's mercy [I had drifted away from a RC upbringing] I eventually settled in a conservative baptist church. At first as a new believer I thought that everyone in the baptist church must be very holy people.....and I would pray before attending services because I thought I had lived such an ungodly life, that they would all know what a sinner I was.
It was not long before I came to understand that God saves sinners.....so I was not out of place there.
As I began to learn and grow...I began to sort out that baptists sometimes have traditions that they hold apart from the word of God.

Surely we do not assume that those that surround us when we fellowship in the House of the Lord are "up to snuff" concerning the doctrinal statement of our faith?

This I learned about a year into the faith at a bible study at a deacons house. the deacon was going over romans 10 but he skipped over these verses;
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
In the providence of God I had just studied Deut 30;
10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

I waited ...no one said anything...I put my hand up and offered this section as a cross reference......I was so excited.....then the deacon said......oh no...
this is way to deep for our bible study

You cannot understand Romans 10 properly without examing this passage.
I asked the pastor the next Lord's day and he explained that as christians get older they slow down and start to meander like a rushing river eventually slows down to a trickle
Eventually I was able to leave for a church that was more interested in scripture...than to just look up a couple of promise verses.
It was a wake -up call however.

Chances are, at least half of those we fellowship with may crack the book only when in Church.

This I find most disturbing. It is hard to imagine that anyone in this condition is even a christian at all. God alone is the judge of all souls.....but this for sure is not a sign of biblical health.
If a person only ate food once a week...you might think they were near death. Compare such a person to the psalmist in Psalm 176....delighting in the word!
Sometimes we must focus on the throne of God...even as we sit during the preaching....so as not to be distracted by some who really do not delight in the word. There is almost nothing so discouraging as having the pastor open up the preaching of a passage speaking of the Lord and His work....you are excited about the verse....you happen to look around and see if others are as excited......and you see a few people noding off,drooling on themselves

There are just too many diverse beliefs even in a fellowship that has sound preaching and teaching to rely on a label to discern a person's relationship and level of knowledge in the Lord.

Well...this is a place where some labels could be helpful as we seek to edify others, or help them stay on the rails so to speak.
If we are familiar with other beliefs and belief systems and they start to put forth error.....we can zero in on what has been proven to be error and offer the correct scriptural alternative....
For example in our day there are two horrendous teachings...open theism, and the federal vision, or new perspectives on Paul which are false evil teachings that can devastate a fellowship.

But I have met enough Pentecostals that think ecstatic speech is mad to know that labeling will limit us in our outreach for Christ.

The pentecostal error is running rampant in our day....because we have reaped what we sowed. We are called to stand fast and rescue some of these people.....or as they study the word and study themselves out of this error..to welcome them and assist them as they come to truth.
I understand what you are saying that sometimes labels can be a hindrance to this process...if not presented carefully...but this happens in several areas.
I drive commercially and sometimes you get approached by women that are degrading themselves out of sin and desperation in their life circumstances.
it is probably not the best approach to use labels when speaking with them...it is a safe bet to just proceed with turning the conversation to the gospel,and the promise of being turned into a new creation by God by new birth.

Same thing I do with everyone else...I find out the basis for his belief.

If we can get those that promote not only questionable, but easily seen heretical doctrines to present the basis for their beliefs, we will open the door for examination that God will perform in their hearts, not us

Agreed...well said! careful listening is important and if we are prayed,and studied up...the Spirit of God will provide a word in season for the person.

We can change minds, but someone can come behind us and change it back. But if God speaks to their hearts through His word, then the error corrected will stand, and at the very least, they will not forget that "encounter."

Yes...agreed again....I have tried to use less stories,anecdotes, philosophy, and carnal reasoning, ...and pray to become almost completely scriptural in becoming all things to all men. The word of God...not our words ....are the judge. Heb4:12

To be honest, I have a hard time when it comes to "counting someone as a brother." Just being honest. There are those that I fellowship that I believe to be in Christ, many of them, really, but how much time do we really get to spend with our Church Family?

Some churches have a fellowship meal...or seek to practice biblical hospitality to get to know the members better.....this also takes prayer and wisdom. Some... instead of godly conversation ..speak of worldly things, gossip, or anything else, but the scriptures, or serving God.
Again this should not be. possibly failing to sanctify the Lord's day contributes to this.
13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

14Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

15And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2

On the forums I am greatly discouraged when I "make a friend" only to later "lose that friend" due to the fact that there is disagreement over some doctrine or the other. Don't take this the wrong way: I will forsake that "friendship" for the sake of remaining true to that which I believe God has led me to an understanding in. The problem is that if a difference arises, we must automatically view them as not a "friend," or not a brother. If the only brothers I have are those that are in agreement with me on every point...I will never be able to call anyone my brother...lol. I have "brothers," but when I speak of losing them it is more in the sense of having brothers that "stick close," if you see what I mean.

Friends should be able to disagree and work through issues....on a forum you over time make certain distant friendships. Having not met the people face to face is a hindrance...some claim to be Pastors, Christians, teachers, missionaries,,,,but sometimes you just have to wonder what is going on...many make claims

In the field, I know those that proclaim Christ, but as for counting them my brothers, many of them I just do not know well enough

Take people at their profession, until they show otherwise.

For the hypothetical man presented, I would neither count him my brother, nor discount the possibility.

If the possibility that I might encounter an angel unaware exists, should I not consider the possibility that I have encountered a brother that has just not been taught in the word?

Yes....think the best..but use caution..for your sake and theirs.
?

I am to witness, not judge. I am to make disciples, not friends, right?

We are to judge righteous judgement..jn 7:24.....it is ok to make disciples and friends also....
Psalm 119:63
I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts
Proverbs 13:20
He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maybe the question should have been, today by what covenant is one put into the church which Jesus said he would build?

Assuming of course it's this church which contains all the saved whether reformed Baptist of some other kind.

Does this take place by covenant?

What are you saying Percho? Are you saying that a "Reformed Baptist" is automatically a "Covenant Theology" believer? If your led to that conclusion, you'd be wrong. But if you are looking for a dividing line, then look to Election vs Humanism. More succinctly, either God is either Totally Sovereign or He is not.

 

[Darrell C]

pt 1

Hello DarrelC

Hello Iconoclast, and thanks for the conversation, it is not often that I get the chance just to have a discussion rather than debate, and I appreciate every occasion very much.

If we rely upon the Holy Spirit to work His good will in our lives, I believe we would see more of this on the forums.

I do, though , have to admit that I also enjoy debate...lol, and opportunity is neverending in the climate of the world concerning doctrine.

The danger, though, is that we fall into a pattern of automatically assuming that because one goes by a particular "label," they are in fact in agreement with the doctrine of that particular faith or fellowship.

Having been brought to a saving knowledge by God's mercy [I had drifted away from a RC upbringing] I eventually settled in a conservative baptist church. At first as a new believer I thought that everyone in the baptist church must be very holy people.....

Not just familiar, but the very sentiment I had when I began attending a fellowship after salvation. I profeesed Christ in a Church that was not that close to where I lived, and began attending a local SB Church.

As I sat among them, I felt like ducking down, so as to be less noticable among this group of holy people.

and I would pray before attending services because I thought I had lived such an ungodly life, that they would all know what a sinner I was.

I can relate fully.

It was not long before I came to understand that God saves sinners.....so I was not out of place there.

Same here. But then something else happened. By the word of God as well as my own thoughts on who the people of God were, I had a very high estimation of the people I attended worship with. But, as I began to know people, as you did, I began to realize that...they were just people, like me.

There was a bit of disappointment, which really led to almost a condescending attitude. Perhaps I should omit the word almost.

What I realize now is that between an elevated opinion of myself, coupled with a diminutive view of those around me, pride worked it's way into my heart. Or perhaps I should say, the pride that existed in my heart began to interfere with the work God sought to accomplish in me.

As I began learning, highly motivated by a desire to witness and be ready with an answer, I also began established this condescending attitude for people that had been saved longer, but were, in my estimation, very ignorant of God's word.

But God would reveal who it was that was ignorant. Over the years, I have realized that the more I learn, my own ignorance becomes more clear. That did not keep me from years of pride, and I am still working on that even today.

The forums have helped greatly with this.

As I began to learn and grow...I began to sort out that baptists sometimes have traditions that they hold apart from the word of God.

As did I. But, what fellowship, what denomination...does not?

As I focused my condescending attitude upon those I felt were in error, I was unable to examine myself.

This is one of the reasons I try not to take for granted that anyone that claims a particular faith...actually holds to the doctrines of that faith. It is simply a matter of necessity to discover the individual basis of belief of every person we come into contact with.

This I learned about a year into the faith at a bible study at a deacons house. the deacon was going over romans 10 but he skipped over these verses;

lol...can you blame him? It seems that there is a general consensus among many preachers and teachers that the general congregation is not able to digest the meatier things, and perhaps, to a certain extent, they are right. But I believe that if that could be changed in the pattern of instruction, we would see a different body of Christ.

Consider Paul, in his writings to fellowships that were engaged in some very immature proceedings. Yet he did not fail to include doctrine that even today has some very mature and well developed believers scratching their head.

But individually, each one learns according to the ability given by God, and we have to recognize that all members learn and progress differently.

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

This is a passage that I have struggled with myself. I would not judge the teacher too hard, for no man can have all the answers, nor be ready to answer or address every passage. Sometimes, we just have to say...I don't know.

In the providence of God I had just studied Deut 30;

10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.



I waited ...no one said anything...I put my hand up and offered this section as a cross reference......I was so excited.....then the deacon said......oh no...
this is way to deep for our bible study

And he was perhaps embarrased. No one likes to admit that they do not understand a passage...lol.

You cannot understand Romans 10 properly without examing this passage.

Agreed.

I asked the pastor the next Lord's day and he explained that as christians get older they slow down and start to meander like a rushing river eventually slows down to a trickle

Even Pastors cannot be expected to have all the answers.

Okay, I will tell you briefly my take on this:

It is given (the quote) to illustrate God's provision for righteousness. Under the law, the First Covenant, man was given the word of God, specifically...Israel. As we read that if righteousness could have come from anything, it should have been through the law.

Paul makes it clear, though, that the righteousness of Christ is not through the law, and the two are contrasted, rather than Paul promoting the law. This he never did in the sense of failing to preach Christ, and Him crucified. We see the same thing in Hebrews 10, probably the best book for believers to to come to an understanding of the First Covenant, or, the Covenant of Law...and the New Covenant (and I throw this in to swing back to topic...lol).

While we can better understand the law through New Testament revelation, except we understand that which is a constant theme in the New Testament, which is that righteousness comes through Christ alone, we will fail to grasp one of God's greatest blessings for the believer.

Consider:


Romans 10

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


We see our contrast between the law and righteousness through Christ begin immediately.

By the keeping of the law, we see that it was not God's righteousness that they sought after, but their own.


4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


This is Paul's primary thrust in this passage: faith in Christ, by which we attain the righteousness of God. Which Israel utterly failed to do.

And there is no wonder: for if righteousness come by the law, Christ is dead in vain. There was never the possibility from before the foundations of the world that it would not be necessary for Christ to die in the place of sinful man.


5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

This is not to teach that man must obey the law, but again we see that there are two righteousnesses in view: that which is found "of the law," and that which is found in Christ.

I will continue this...

 

[Darrell C]

Eventually I was able to leave for a church that was more interested in scripture...than to just look up a couple of promise verses.
It was a wake -up call however.

And that is the thing to grasp: a wake-up call in our lives. But isn't that the ministry the Spirit of God performs in our lives? To convict us and lead us as we are conformed to the image of Christ?

I would not be too hard on them, my friend, surely there were members among that fellowship that were avid students of the word.

This I find most disturbing. It is hard to imagine that anyone in this condition is even a christian at all. God alone is the judge of all souls.....but this for sure is not a sign of biblical health.

Well, I understand this, really, I felt the same way. As I go to forums I am amazed at some of the things that are presented that are supposed to have a basis in scripture.

However, we have to remember that all of us start out as...babes.

All of us start out with...milk.

It is disheartening to attend a fellowship where milk is the only staple. I would suggest that sunday school is the place for a fuller diet, and also that in the general services, every pastor and preacher probably has in mind (at least should) that among the congregation are going to be lost souls, who are in need of the Gospel presented on a level which they can understand. Sunday mornings, at least, should always convey a straight-forward easily understood message of the Cross.

And despite how long we have been saved, I think we also need to bear in mind that which He bore for us, and why He had need to do so.

If a person only ate food once a week...you might think they were near death.

But if you feed an unsaved man, and even babes meat...you will choke them, right?

This is perhaps the reason many Pastors teach a basic message in general services. And I would suggest that even as eating stimulates the natural body toward hunger, even so it is with our spirits.

Those that rely upon the ministry of their Church only for spiritual growth will go hungry. At most, this is a four times a week feeding.

So what is it that motivates the believer to feed himself?

Not it...but Who. I think you would agree that it is God that will motivate the believer, give him the hunger for the word, and righteousness in his life, as God's word cleanses him.

Compare such a person to the psalmist in Psalm 176....delighting in the word!
Sometimes we must focus on the throne of God...even as we sit during the preaching....so as not to be distracted by some who really do not delight in the word.

Longevity in attendance does not always equate to maturation. There is so much to learn of God in the limited amount of information available to us, and a lifetime is not enough, I think, just to fully grasp the word of God. How much more if one does not have the hunger to learn more.

But it is true, believers have a responsibility to learn, though there are those that just have not understood this yet. Should we despise them? No, but we should seek to be useful in motivating a desire to learn in others.

Again, one of the great things about doctrinal forums.

There is almost nothing so discouraging as having the pastor open up the preaching of a passage speaking of the Lord and His work....you are excited about the verse....you happen to look around and see if others are as excited......and you see a few people noding off,drooling on themselves

Well, just to give you something to think about: sometimes there are times when because work is so busy, I reach a point of exhaustion (in fact that is why I have had so much time this week...I am exhausted and have taken time away from work, though I really could not afford to do so. Soon, it will be back to the grind), yet I go to the services anyway. There are times when I could just nod off, but fortunately, I have found a fellowship where the preacher is amazing. An expositor of the highest manner. His love for the word is infectious, and this is what I think allows some to nod off....lack of sufficient administration.

If the word is administered to the congregation in the way it should, where we can see that it is true that these are treasures being brought out, not just a lecture...then more would be interested in that very important aspect of our walk, growing up.


Be back in a bit, and not sure how much time I have, so I will soon have to get back to check the debate side of my visit today...lol.

 

[Darrell C]

Well...this is a place where some labels could be helpful as we seek to edify others, or help them stay on the rails so to speak.

Our first task is to look inward, according to the command of scripture. As we do seek to be useful to the Lord in our ministries, whatever those ministries are, keeping in mind that we also are still in a period of growth, which I believe never ends in this life, will help us to reserve sympathy and compassion for those that are in the place we once were.

But the good news is that when one starts to gain a hunger for the word, it will be an increasing appetite to know the Lord better.

If we are familiar with other beliefs and belief systems and they start to put forth error.....we can zero in on what has been proven to be error and offer the correct scriptural alternative....

I have a different approach, which stems from a love for Sherlock Holmes when I was a kid: concentrate on what is true, and when falsehood is presented, we will be ready to confront it.

It is good to be aware of the basis of belief for the doctrines which have from the beginning of the Gospel of Christ been in existance, but that will pale in comparidson to understanding the truth of God's word.

If you are sound in God's word, no doctrine, no matter how cleverly presented or defended, will prevail against His truth.

There are those that specialize in ministry to certain cults, and that is good, but not all of us have been called to such a ministry. Most of us, though, will deal with doctrine of demons in the lives of those we come into contact with, especially if we frequent doctrinal forums.

So that is my approach, and it works very well (at least I think it does...lol. Is that my pride rearing it's ugly head again?)

A man that specialized in counterfeit currency was asked, "You must study a lot of counterfeit money?"

"No, he said, I study real money, so I can identify the counterfeit."

And sometimes, well, in my opinion most of the times, a focus on a particular doctrine or group leads to animosity in the life of the very one that seeks to show the love of Christ.

I see this over and over again, it comes up on every forum. And it is a little shameful, in my view, to try to present Christ with a platform of what is nothing less than hatred.

And this I have learned: 1-find out what an individual knows, do not presume to tell him; 2-examine with them the basis for their belief: this will in many cases at the very least show them that they believe something...with no valid basis for that belief.

This is particularly effective when witnessing to atheists. Many of them hate God and the bible because they have received invalid and easily shown to be in error...commentary on the bible.

Of course, any time one is told they are wrong, human nature will usually result in anger, and the topic at hand becomes cloudy, and if you are not careful...lost. They would rather nurse their anger than examine the reason for their anger, which is...they are wrong!

But all is not lost, for there will be planted a seed, one which will battle the rebellious heart.

And thank God for that.

For example in our day there are two horrendous teachings...open theism, and the federal vision, or new perspectives on Paul which are false evil teachings that can devastate a fellowship.

Today many core doctrines are under attack. But if we study the true, we can address the false.

The pentecostal error is running rampant in our day....because we have reaped what we sowed.

Well, I for one can say that I have not contributed to the error of Pentecostal and Charismatic doctrine. I have lost several "friends" and garnered the animosity of several that while not claiming to be either of these, believe the doctrines we see prevalent in such groups. Thus my earlier comments concerning "friends."

But on the other hand, there are those that despite our disagreement, have not responded in anger and we can not only discuss scripture still, but recognize that the possibility that both belong to the Lord.

It is not my place to judge another in such a manner, that I declare who is saved and who is not. I can look back on my walk and recognize where at one time I also held beliefs that had no basis in scripture as well. It did not mean I was not saved, just ignorant.

Okay, almost through...

 

[Darrell C]

We are called to stand fast and rescue some of these people.....

True. It is disheartening to me on certain forums where people that are desperately in need of counsel are banned.

It is also disheartening to see that animosity is usuall. It is true we are to defend the faith, but I try not to let my emotions get out of control and speak in a manner that may be displeasing to God.

or as they study the word and study themselves out of this error..

I believe that happens, really. I have a hope that some that I discuss doctrine with do see the weakness in the basis of their belief, and though they do not admit it on the forum they are addressed on, it may be that they will have a different doctrine when they join another.

to welcome them and assist them as they come to truth.

A capital goal.

I understand what you are saying that sometimes labels can be a hindrance to this process...if not presented carefully...but this happens in several areas.

As believers discuss these things amongst themselves, I have no problem, but call an atheist to his face an "unbeliever," and we have already started out on a losing course.

This is what I mean.

I drive commercially and sometimes you get approached by women that are degrading themselves out of sin and desperation in their life circumstances.


it is probably not the best approach to use labels when speaking with them...it is a safe bet to just proceed with turning the conversation to the gospel,and the promise of being turned into a new creation by God by new birth.

And in many cases, "desperation" is a good thing to remember. Once I was in a desperate condition due to sin. I was no different concerning righteousness than a lot lizard, and probably more sexually depraved than them (what can I say...I played heavy metal...lol).

Agreed...well said! careful listening is important and if we are prayed,and studied up...the Spirit of God will provide a word in season for the person.

Reliance on Him, as you know, must never be forgotten. There have been times when the Lord supplied that which was needed, and most of the times He has guided me in my study just recently, preparing me before the event.

Awesome, no?

Yes...agreed again....I have tried to use less stories,anecdotes, philosophy, and carnal reasoning, ...and pray to become almost completely scriptural in becoming all things to all men. The word of God...not our words ....are the judge. Heb4:12

And this is truth.

If we study the true, we will be ready to deal with the false. We must decrease (our thoughts and words), and He must increase (our yielding to Him...we are but the body, He is the Head).

Some churches have a fellowship meal...or seek to practice biblical hospitality to get to know the members better.....this also takes prayer and wisdom. Some... instead of godly conversation ..speak of worldly things, gossip, or anything else, but the scriptures, or serving God.

And if pressed, we might actually embarass someone. But I know, and agree, with what you speak of. But to be honest, there are not too many people I know that love to discuss scripture...all the time.

Want to end a conversation...talk doctrine...lol.

Again this should not be.

Agreed, but let's remember we all grow differently, and not all have been, I believe, gifted in ways that lead them to fervent study. Preachers, teachers, and evangelists will almost always be involved in fervent study.

Some members of the body have a different role to play.

possibly failing to sanctify the Lord's day contributes to this.

I am one that sees every day as the Lord's day. While I enjoy the Lord's day for a number of reasons, I am no holier or obedient on this day than I am the day before or the day after.

13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

As in Romans 10, and the general topic of this thread, we need desperately to understand the difference between the First Covenant and the New.

This is one thing that is never taught, at least, not as it should be, I believe.

When we see the law contrasted with the righteousness of Christ, we cannot fail to see the awesome power of God which He worked in Christ for the benefit and redemption of mankind.

Okay, I may have to come back to "part 2," time is limited, and I need to check on another forum, as well as the "debate side" of this one.

Appreciate the chance for conversation, though, I conoclast, hope this is just the beginning of good discussion of the word of God.

God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

.



.

pt 1

Hello DarrelC

The danger, though, is that we fall into a pattern of automatically assuming that because one goes by a particular "label," they are in fact in agreement with the doctrine of that particular faith or fellowship.

Having been brought to a saving knowledge by God's mercy [I had drifted away from a RC upbringing] I eventually settled in a conservative baptist church. At first as a new believer I thought that everyone in the baptist church must be very holy people.....and I would pray before attending services because I thought I had lived such an ungodly life, that they would all know what a sinner I was.
It was not long before I came to understand that God saves sinners.....so I was not out of place there.
As I began to learn and grow...I began to sort out that baptists sometimes have traditions that they hold apart from the word of God.

This I learned about a year into the faith at a bible study at a deacons house. the deacon was going over romans 10 but he skipped over these verses;
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
In the providence of God I had just studied Deut 30;
10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

I waited ...no one said anything...I put my hand up and offered this section as a cross reference......I was so excited.....then the deacon said......oh no...
this is way to deep for our bible study

You cannot understand Romans 10 properly without examing this passage.
I asked the pastor the next Lord's day and he explained that as christians get older they slow down and start to meander like a rushing river eventually slows down to a trickle
Eventually I was able to leave for a church that was more interested in scripture...than to just look up a couple of promise verses.
It was a wake -up call however.



This I find most disturbing. It is hard to imagine that anyone in this condition is even a christian at all. God alone is the judge of all souls.....but this for sure is not a sign of biblical health.
If a person only ate food once a week...you might think they were near death. Compare such a person to the psalmist in Psalm 176....delighting in the word!
Sometimes we must focus on the throne of God...even as we sit during the preaching....so as not to be distracted by some who really do not delight in the word. There is almost nothing so discouraging as having the pastor open up the preaching of a passage speaking of the Lord and His work....you are excited about the verse....you happen to look around and see if others are as excited......and you see a few people noding off,drooling on themselves




Well...this is a place where some labels could be helpful as we seek to edify others, or help them stay on the rails so to speak.
If we are familiar with other beliefs and belief systems and they start to put forth error.....we can zero in on what has been proven to be error and offer the correct scriptural alternative....
For example in our day there are two horrendous teachings...open theism, and the federal vision, or new perspectives on Paul which are false evil teachings that can devastate a fellowship.



The pentecostal error is running rampant in our day....because we have reaped what we sowed. We are called to stand fast and rescue some of these people.....or as they study the word and study themselves out of this error..to welcome them and assist them as they come to truth.
I understand what you are saying that sometimes labels can be a hindrance to this process...if not presented carefully...but this happens in several areas.
I drive commercially and sometimes you get approached by women that are degrading themselves out of sin and desperation in their life circumstances.
it is probably not the best approach to use labels when speaking with them...it is a safe bet to just proceed with turning the conversation to the gospel,and the promise of being turned into a new creation by God by new birth.



Agreed...well said! careful listening is important and if we are prayed,and studied up...the Spirit of God will provide a word in season for the person.



Yes...agreed again....I have tried to use less stories,anecdotes, philosophy, and carnal reasoning, ...and pray to become almost completely scriptural in becoming all things to all men. The word of God...not our words ....are the judge. Heb4:12



Some churches have a fellowship meal...or seek to practice biblical hospitality to get to know the members better.....this also takes prayer and wisdom. Some... instead of godly conversation ..speak of worldly things, gossip, or anything else, but the scriptures, or serving God.
Again this should not be. possibly failing to sanctify the Lord's day contributes to this.
13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Think that we have to realise that there is a BIG difference between say a pentacostal in Assemblies of God who is part of a true christian church group that minunderstands what the Bible teaches on HS and gifts and those in WoF/prosperity/health wealth/jesus only, as those are cultic heretical groups espusing false teaches coming from demonic sources!

 

[JesusFan]

What are you saying Percho? Are you saying that a "Reformed Baptist" is automatically a "Covenant Theology" believer? If your led to that conclusion, you'd be wrong. But if you are looking for a dividing line, then look to Election vs Humanism. More succinctly, either God is either Totally Sovereign or He is not.

Think that he meant that majority of reformed baptists hold to Covenant theology, which would be true!

Do agree THE dividing line is on what basis does God elect us to eternal life in Christ?

its either by His own Sovereign Will, or else he does it because we freely chose Christ!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Think that he meant that majority of reformed baptists hold to Covenant theology, which would be true!

Do agree THE dividing line is on what basis does God elect us to eternal life in Christ?

its either by His own Sovereign Will, or else he does it because we freely chose Christ!

theocentric vs anthropocentric perspective.

 

[Darrell C]

.



.

pt 1

Hello DarrelC



Think that we have to realise that there is a BIG difference between say a pentacostal in Assemblies of God who is part of a true christian church group that minunderstands what the Bible teaches on HS and gifts and those in WoF/prosperity/health wealth/jesus only, as those are cultic heretical groups espusing false teaches coming from demonic sources!

I think that we need to know what each individual believes before assuming that 1-AoG members are all saved and 2-all people involved in the groups that teach heresy such as the health/wealth camp are all lost.

Assumption is a killer.

God bless

 

[JesusFan]

I think that we need to know what each individual believes before assuming that 1-AoG members are all saved and 2-all people involved in the groups that teach heresy such as the health/wealth camp are all lost.

Assumption is a killer.

God bless

NEVER said that!

just saying that the Assemblies of God as a church IS a Christian group, just from Baptist view misinterpreting scriptures regarding the HS and His workings, while the WoF/prosperity groups are heretical groups teaching wise, with some saved folks regettable in them!