Are all the letters of Ignatius of Antioch forgeries?

[Cathode]

Making a false accusation does not make the accusation so.

It was a question, how is your interpretive tradition superior to others.

Their are no authentic letters by him.

Sayeth you. The majority of Christianity accepts Ignatius 7 epistles.

More nonsense.

How is it nonsense when you seem to be declaring heresy. Only an infallible Authority can declare a heresy.
Unless you are declaring that your interpretation of Scripture is infallible.

 

[37818]

It was a question, how is your interpretive tradition superior to others.

It is a loaded question accusation. Accusing me falsely of a claim superior interpertation skills.

Sayeth you. The majority of Christianity accepts Ignatius 7 epistles.

So? The letters still have teachings contrary to the Apostolic teachings as found in the New Testament.

How is it nonsense when you seem to be declaring heresy. Only an infallible Authority can declare a heresy.
Unless you are declaring that your interpretation of Scripture is infallible.

No. The New Testament is solely the infallible authority.

 

[Walter]

37818: Of course you would say this. However, Ignatius set at the feet of John and I would much rather think that his teachings are more in line than what reformers came up with 1,500 years after the death of the Apostles. Do you really think Ignatius twisted John's teachings or do you think he probably wrote down what John taught him?

On the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ (1374). In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ignatius addresses the issue of those who do not believe as the Church does:

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God… They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 6

Here Ignatius equates the Eucharist to the same flesh of Christ that suffered for our sake on the cross. Jesus also uses this literal comparison when he explained, “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh” (John 6:51).

Ignatius also explains that the Eucharist must be administered either by a bishop or one of his ordained ministers:

Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.—Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8

 

[Cathode]

My persuasion is as stated, those letters attributed to Ignatius are forgeries by reason of them having teachings contrary to the New Testament.

No, Ignatius has teachings contrary to your interpretations of the New Testament, not contrary to the New Testament.

 

[Eliyahu]

Then either Ignatius of Antioch is a heretic or the claims of the "Catholic Church" are truth. Personally I have concluded all known letters ascribed to Ignatius of Antioch to be forgeries.

You misunderstood what I am saying.
Ignatius was a disciple of Apostle John, though he may have been wrong in some aspect. The translation by Lightfoot already showed the mistakes. We cannot judge Ignatius by the translation of Lightfoot.

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Before there was a Canon, there was the Liturgy of the Mass. This is where the Church Councils used Tradition to determine the Canon.

The Bible was an outgrowth of the ecclesial Liturgy at mass in continuous use back to the Apostles.

There were over 50 documents pro porting to be Gospels and thousands claiming to be epistles. The Catholic Church simply used the continuous Liturgy rule at her Councils, so the Bible is a product of Catholic Tradition.

Catholic didn't exist by 251AD when Cornelius gathered together with the apostates who surrendered to the emperor worship.
Mass is the English translation of Mactatus in Latin which means the sacrifice, slaughter, killing because Roman Catholic believes they have to offer the sacrifice for the daily incurred sins. The true Christians believe that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross Once for All. Therefore we don't offer the sacrifice every week but remember and give thanks to God for the forgiveness of sins by the precious Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross. No more sacrifice is required ( Hebrews 10:17-18)

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

During the time of 1-4th century, did the churches perform the Mass?
I don't think so. Mass is a paganism.
Apostle John already taught the Believers what to read and therefore Ignatius and Polycarp mentioned those Epistles as the readers already knew the canon of the NT.

Remember Novatians and Donatists were like Baptists of today and Novatian condemned Cornelius after the death of Fabian and Donatists prospered in North Africa after 311AD, before Athanasius.
Roman Catholic is nothing but the pagan religion full of IDOLATRY leading the people to the HELL.
Get out of there, my people ( Rev 18:4)

Eliyahu

 

[Cathode]

It is a loaded question accusation. Accusing me falsely of a claim superior interpertation skills.

Well if your interpretation of the New Testament is not inerrant, you could be completely wrong on what scripture teaches. So how can you say Ignatius is a heretic one way or the other?

So? The letters still have teachings contrary to the Apostolic teachings as found in the New Testament.

The NewTestament teaches “ Bible aloners “ very different things depending on who is interpreting it. We know the New Testament is infallible, but people’s private interpretations and doctrines from it aren’t. They can nullify it by wrongful interpretation and teachings that follow those interpretations.

 

[37818]

Well if your interpretation of the New Testament is not inerrant, you could be completely wrong on what scripture teaches. So how can you say Ignatius is a heretic one way or the other?

The teachings as found in those letters attruted to Ignatius contain teachings not found in the New Testament.

A different example:
Acts of the Apostles 8:29-38.
Philip immersed the Ethiopian without any kind of Bishop's permission. And rightly so.

Contrary to SMYRNAEANS 8.

 

[Cathode]

The teachings as found in those letters attruted to Ignatius contain teachings not found in the New Testament.

That’s Baptism, anyone can baptise, it is Ex opere operato.

Ignatius is talking in regard to the Eucharist and those activities related to the priests and deacons.

 

[Eliyahu]

37818:

On the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ (1374). In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ignatius addresses the issue of those who do not believe as the Church does:

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God… They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 6

Here Ignatius equates the Eucharist to the same flesh of Christ that suffered for our sake on the cross. Jesus also uses this literal comparison when he explained, “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh” (John 6:51).

Blood of Jesus was offered to God, not for the people to drink. Jesus on the Cross never asked anyone to suck His Blood dripping down to the earth.
Roman Catholic and you are confessing that they are cursed by God because the Bible says this:

Leviticus 17
14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Roman Catholic confess they are cursed to be cut off from the people of God.
RCC confess that they are going to the Purgatory Inferno which is virtually the Hell without knowing when they can get out of there.

But the truly Born Again Christian Believers go to the Heaven via Paradise as the Robber on the Cross who went to the Paradise along with Jesus, without going to the Purgatory.

Luke 23:
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 6 talks about the Bread and Blood indicating the Body and the Blood of Jesus.
This teaching is talking about the Spirit thru the Words of God.
RCC misunderstand the words of Jesus as the Jews misunderstood in His time.


Eliyahu

 

[37818]

That’s Baptism, anyone can baptise, it is Ex opere operato.

You are presuming your view is correct.

Ignatius is talking in regard to the Eucharist and those activities related to the priests and deacons.

You are presuming Ignatius wrote what is not in evidence that he wrote.
The text I had referenced was about baptism.

 

[Cathode]

You are presuming your view is correct.


You are presuming Ignatius wrote what is not in evidence that he wrote.
The text I had referenced was about baptism.

My point being that Catholics don’t need a Bishops permission to baptise.

 

[Cathode]

Blood of Jesus was offered to God, not for the people to drink. Jesus on the Cross never asked anyone to suck His Blood dripping down to the earth.
Roman Catholic and you are confessing that they are cursed by God because the Bible says this:

Leviticus 17
14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Roman Catholic confess they are cursed to be cut off from the people of God.
RCC confess that they are going to the Purgatory Inferno which is virtually the Hell without knowing when they can get out of there.

But the truly Born Again Christian Believers go to the Heaven via Paradise as the Robber on the Cross who went to the Paradise along with Jesus, without going to the Purgatory.

Luke 23:
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 6 talks about the Bread and Blood indicating the Body and the Blood of Jesus.
This teaching is talking about the Spirit thru the Words of God.
RCC misunderstand the words of Jesus as the Jews misunderstood in His time.


Eliyahu

Jesus problem with people in John 6 was not that they didn’t understand, it was that they didn’t believe.
The Apostles didn’t understand, but they believed anyway, and this is what we call faith.
The Apostles didn’t then know how Jesus flesh and blood would become real food and real drink until the Last Supper when Jesus consecrated the bread and wine into his Body and Blood.
It divided His follows then and divides his followers now.

Catholics believe Jesus words, that His flesh is real food and blood real drink.

We don’t know how he transforms bread and wine into His Body and Blood, we only believe it because Jesus said it.
We don’t know how He transformed water into wine, but we believe it.
We don’t know how He walked on water, healed the sick or raised the dead, but we believe it.
It would be easy to believe these things if they were only symbolic, but as it is, it requires a great deal of Faith from us.

What Jesus said and did was true, from our perspective. There’s no one else to go to, Jesus has the words of everlasting Life.

 

[Eliyahu]

Jesus problem with people in John 6 was not that they didn’t understand, it was that they didn’t believe

The Apostles didn’t understand, but they believed anyway, and this is what we call faith.
The Apostles didn’t then know how Jesus flesh and blood would become real food and real drink until the Last Supper when Jesus consecrated the bread and wine into his Body and Blood.
It divided His follows then and divides his followers now.

Catholics believe Jesus words, that His flesh is real food and blood real drink.

We don’t know how he transforms bread and wine into His Body and Blood, we only believe it because Jesus said it.
We don’t know how He transformed water into wine, but we believe it.
We don’t know how He walked on water, healed the sick or raised the dead, but we believe it.
It would be easy to believe these things if they were only symbolic, but as it is, it requires a great deal of Faith from us.

What Jesus said and did was true, from our perspective. There’s no one else to go to, Jesus has the words of everlasting Life.

.

John 6:52
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Both Jews and the Disciples of Jesus didn't understand what Jesus said when He said " Eat my flesh and Drink my blood"

John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Here Jesus clarified what He said was the Spirit, not the Flesh!



RCC don't understand what Jesus meant by saying "EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK BLOOD"

Jesus kindly explained that what He said was the Spirit, not the Flesh.
Read His Words again:

John 6
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

What Jesus said was the SPIRIT, Flesh profits NOTHING

RCC and you are holding the flesh which profits NOTHING!

Again, read these words
Leviticus 17
14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

RCC insist that they are drinking the human blood, which means they are CURSED to be cut off from the People of God.
In that aspect, RCC are honest because they are bounding to go to the HELL.
By claiming the Purgatory, RCC are honest because they are going to the Purgatory INFERNO which is virtually the HELL.
The truly born again Christians don't go to the Purgatory but to the Paradise directly as the Robber on the Cross did with Jesus ( Luke 23:43)

RCC claims that they eat the Flesh of Jesus and drink Blood of Jesus, because they are in the habit of their spiritual ancestors from Babylon who were cannibal eating the roasted human flesh and drank the human blood. Read the book titled " Two Babylon " by Dr. Alexander Hislop

Finally, I recommend you to be born again truly by the Holy Spirit, then you will start to understand what Jesus said in John 6.


Eliyahu

 

[steaver]

Finally, I recommend you to be born again truly by the Holy Spirit, then you will start to understand what Jesus said in John 6.

Catholics do not seek a spiritual rebirth, for they are taught born-again means getting baptized with water. So a cradle to grave Catholic will definitely see no need to seek the Holy Spirit rebirth for they think this "must do" Jesus spoke of was already done for them when they were a baby.

 

[steaver]

I have been in dialogue with a devout Catholic for the past two years. It has been enlightening what beliefs Catholics hold to for justification/eternal life. A good way to describe their system of how one ultimately gets saved is like solving a Rubik's Cube. So many parts must fall into place. And NO one can know 100% for sure if they will make it. Only a "confident assurance" at best, if you get the puzzle close, no one can get it perfectly solved. On the Eucharist, as it relates to salvation, this is one of the last things he said to me when I asked if it was required for salvation...

"Yes, you need to receive the Eucharist to be saved because Christ said it’s a requirement for eternal life. It’s not only required of Catholics. It’s also not the only requirement for eternal life. No one knows he is saved the way you perceive it (as born-again) Steven. No one. Sorry to keep having to burst your bubble on this. It’s unbiblical and man-made-up. Being born-again in Baptism saves, sure, but that’s only step 1 in the process of final salvation (reaching heaven).

 

[37818]

My point being that Catholics don’t need a Bishops permission to baptise.

Then you agree the following instruction is wtong, "It is not lawful either to baptise or to hold an “agapé” without the bishop; but whatever he approve, this is also pleasing God, that everything which you do may be secure and valid." -- from verse 8, LETTER TO THE SMYRNAEANS. It is not according to the word of God.

 

[Walter]

Blood of Jesus was offered to God, not for the people to drink. Jesus on the Cross never asked anyone to suck His Blood dripping down to the earth.
Roman Catholic and you are confessing that they are cursed by God because the Bible says this:

Leviticus 17
14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Roman Catholic confess they are cursed to be cut off from the people of God.
RCC confess that they are going to the Purgatory Inferno which is virtually the Hell without knowing when they can get out of there.

But the truly Born Again Christian Believers go to the Heaven via Paradise as the Robber on the Cross who went to the Paradise along with Jesus, without going to the Purgatory.

Luke 23:
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 6 talks about the Bread and Blood indicating the Body and the Blood of Jesus.
This teaching is talking about the Spirit thru the Words of God.
RCC misunderstand the words of Jesus as the Jews misunderstood in His time.


Eliyahu

Jesus' words in Jn 6:63 have essentially a two-fold meaning: it is only the Spirit that can accomplish the miracle of the Eucharist, and it is only the Spirit that can empower us to believe in the miracle. If you are relying on the power of the flesh, you aren’t going to see it!

 

[37818]

. . . the miracle of the Eucharist, . . .

The word of God nowhere speaks of any miracle of thanks ευχαριστησας. The real presence is the Son of God in the believers, 1 John 5:12, 2 Corinthians 13:5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, ". . . For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. . . ."

 

[Walter]

The word of God nowhere speaks of any miracle of thanks ευχαριστησας. The real presence is the Son of God in the believers, 1 John 5:12, 2 Corinthians 13:5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, ". . . For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. . . ."

Lets take a close look at that. You are still reading the Bible through its English meanings rather than delving into the language and culture in which it was originally written. The text in 1 Corinthians 10:16–17 points to the Real Presence: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.” Now ask yourself: What must the cup and the bread be to make possible this participation in the blood and body of Christ? The most obvious and logical answer is that the bread and cup of wine must really be the body and blood of Christ.