I do not understand answers like this. I understand what you are saying but fail to see how it advances the discussion. In order to advance the discussion you would need to add to this statement what view of Calvinism is incorrect and just what is the correct view.
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are Altar calls even biblical?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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I do not understand answers like this. I understand what you are saying but fail to see how it advances the discussion. In order to advance the discussion you would need to add to this statement what view of Calvinism is incorrect and just what is the correct view.
Tom Butler
New Member
Yes. Good examples are Peter's Pentecost sermon and Paul's message on Mars Hill (Acts 17).
Peter never got a chance to do an invitation as an adjunct to the sermon. He was interrupted by some hearers who had come under conviction. His response was simple. Repent.
Paul simply ended his sermon. Some believed, some didn't, but the invitation was, as you said, in the sermon. Only it was not an invitation--it was a command.
Acts 17:30:
That was the invitation--or more of an exhortation. It certainly was not a touchy-feely thing.
You mean there is more then one view?
Never said that it was a work, as I hold that the sinner must receive christ by faith, so do not see faith as 'work" either!
just asking if we have a biblcal model to do them in a service!
Ok well this answer completely avoids our conversation thus far. Now my question for you is, is it necessary to have a biblical model. Since, there is absolutely no description of what went on in their regular services how would you come to such a conclusion.
Y...tell guy frederecks to get his Fanny in here. & straighten these guys out....tell him I said so.
isn't the bible examples that you would state who jesus is to others, and state that Chrsit alone can save them? the HS will do his work to save, as we do ours to tell?
Brother I have no idea what you are saying here.
God has ordained that we are to be used by him to deliver to sinners the Gospel message, and that His work is to prepare the sinners to be enabled to hear and respond thru placing faith in christ!
Ok, I agree with that. Exactly what I have been saying.
Revmitchell
The statement I responded to was also very general,so my response was also.
The bible teaches God is in control and man is responsible...agreed.
Calvinism rightly portrays how both actually take place,according to biblical revelation...not man made logic.
Some who are first working their way through these ideas for the first time often mis-state or have a very incomplete understanding of it. There is much to consider , so this should not be shocking.
Some go beyond what is written. This person might have much truth, but usually over states one area of truth,at the expense of another....so like most of the time it is a mix of truth and error taking place.
When a non cal tries to offer correction to this second person...most times it will be rejected because the non cal offers a weak caricature...so both are in error! Strawmen do not help here either.
The will of man is an issue. Man does:
repent
believe
trust
follow
come
and seek...Jesus as Lord and Saviour
The only reason is God works in Him savingly drawing and regenerating him giving a NEW HEART.
the result is.....the man comes, exercises faith,etc.
Anything beyond this is error on either side....Falsely ascribing bad motives to,or Limiting God, or exalting man are the error.
To define it further one needs more specific questions,and sometimes much study with many portions of scripture being compared.:thumbsup:
The statement I responded to was also very general,so my response was also.
The bible teaches God is in control and man is responsible...agreed.
Calvinism rightly portrays how both actually take place,according to biblical revelation...not man made logic.
Some who are first working their way through these ideas for the first time often mis-state or have a very incomplete understanding of it. There is much to consider , so this should not be shocking.
Some go beyond what is written. This person might have much truth, but usually over states one area of truth,at the expense of another....so like most of the time it is a mix of truth and error taking place.
When a non cal tries to offer correction to this second person...most times it will be rejected because the non cal offers a weak caricature...so both are in error! Strawmen do not help here either.
The will of man is an issue. Man does:
repent
believe
trust
follow
come
and seek...Jesus as Lord and Saviour
The only reason is God works in Him savingly drawing and regenerating him giving a NEW HEART.
the result is.....the man comes, exercises faith,etc.
Anything beyond this is error on either side....Falsely ascribing bad motives to,or Limiting God, or exalting man are the error.
To define it further one needs more specific questions,and sometimes much study with many portions of scripture being compared.:thumbsup:
That isn't true at all.
If you know the truth then why not believe it?
What makes you think men have to be prepared to be enabled? Enabled to what? Seems you're talking in riddles. No where in scripture does it say man has to be enabled.
ia
MB,
I do by God's grace....
All divine truth is God given
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The christian life is supernatural. God works in us..enabling us by His Spirit.
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Just because the cal does not like the "caricature" does not make it weak or wrong. However, I always try to be as true to stated beliefs as possible. But when characterizing error it can be difficult to do so in a way that pleases the one with the error.
Tom Butler
New Member
Several years ago, I was part of a contingent of Southern Baptists which went to Romania on a mission trip. My pastor preached and I sang in a number of services.
After about the second service, I noticed that the host pastor (or deacon) simply closed the service. At none of those churches was there an invitation at the end.
This was new to me. Rarely did any Baptist church I ever attended ever end a service without one.
So I asked the host Romanian pastor about it Here was his answer:
"We believe God is sovereign We believe the Holy Spirit is sovereign We have come to believe that when the Holy Spirit is at work with a lost man, we do not have to invite, beg, exhort or cajole-he will come to us. We cannot keep him away. So we don't need to sing all the verses of Just As I Am; We don't need the organ playing softly while the preacher is urging people to respond"
Now these preachers were not Calvinists. But what he said got me to thinking.
I found that they did not do the easy-believism thing. At they time we were there, they were only a few years out of Communism, and many of these folks had been believers under Communism.
When someone would come to them, desiring to publcly confess Christ as Lord, here's what they did: They tried to talk him out of it!
The repenters (that's what they called believers) pointed out the downside of publicly acknowledging Christ. They could be thrown into jail. They could be beaten up. They could lose their jobs. They could be killed.
Then came the big question: "Knowing all this, do you still want to confess Christ and be baptized?"
Most of the time the answer was yes. So they would baptize the new convert. But there's more.
Each new convert was placed on a sort of probation for a year. He was not allowed to have any jobs in the church. He was to be discipled. If he was still round after a year, that was taken as proof that his conversion was genuine, and he was admitted into full membership privileges. That included being given places of service consistent with his gifts.
The following may be related to what I just related: The average worship attendance in our headquarters church was 300. The membership roll numbered 150. In every church we visited, the attendance always outnumbered the membership number.
That's one-eighty from the American experience. In every Baptist church I ever attended, we were delighted if we could 40-50% of our members there on any Sunday morning.
I'm wondering if it's too easy to get into a Baptist church--and too hard to get out.
After about the second service, I noticed that the host pastor (or deacon) simply closed the service. At none of those churches was there an invitation at the end.
This was new to me. Rarely did any Baptist church I ever attended ever end a service without one.
So I asked the host Romanian pastor about it Here was his answer:
"We believe God is sovereign We believe the Holy Spirit is sovereign We have come to believe that when the Holy Spirit is at work with a lost man, we do not have to invite, beg, exhort or cajole-he will come to us. We cannot keep him away. So we don't need to sing all the verses of Just As I Am; We don't need the organ playing softly while the preacher is urging people to respond"
Now these preachers were not Calvinists. But what he said got me to thinking.
I found that they did not do the easy-believism thing. At they time we were there, they were only a few years out of Communism, and many of these folks had been believers under Communism.
When someone would come to them, desiring to publcly confess Christ as Lord, here's what they did: They tried to talk him out of it!
The repenters (that's what they called believers) pointed out the downside of publicly acknowledging Christ. They could be thrown into jail. They could be beaten up. They could lose their jobs. They could be killed.
Then came the big question: "Knowing all this, do you still want to confess Christ and be baptized?"
Most of the time the answer was yes. So they would baptize the new convert. But there's more.
Each new convert was placed on a sort of probation for a year. He was not allowed to have any jobs in the church. He was to be discipled. If he was still round after a year, that was taken as proof that his conversion was genuine, and he was admitted into full membership privileges. That included being given places of service consistent with his gifts.
The following may be related to what I just related: The average worship attendance in our headquarters church was 300. The membership roll numbered 150. In every church we visited, the attendance always outnumbered the membership number.
That's one-eighty from the American experience. In every Baptist church I ever attended, we were delighted if we could 40-50% of our members there on any Sunday morning.
I'm wondering if it's too easy to get into a Baptist church--and too hard to get out.
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Can a calvinist br really treated "fairly' by those who think its unbiblical doctrineto hold though?
Thats interesting Tom!!! I would have to see them display to me a willingness to go out to the poor & destitute. Most talk the talk but dont walk the walk. Im NOT OK with that.
Tom Butler
New Member
At the time we were in Romania, they were still learning how to do capitalism. The economy was still weak. Our host family of husband, wife and two sons, had a salary of about $600 a month from his factory job. He was considered middle-class. So there were a lot of poor folks right there in their midst. Not a lot of wealthy people there.
But they were close-knit congregations. We didn't discus how they dealt with the poor and destitute, but I would imagine that it went with the territory.