Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
DHK: You need a Greek lexicon to look up the word "telios" or "perfect.' It is the same word used in 1Cor.13:10, over which there is so much debate. In Old English, as well as in the Greek it does not have the same modern day meaning of our word perfect. It means complete.
HP: What or how is something complete? If I tell you have a perfect car, am I trying to tell you that you have a junker with every worn out part? If I tell you the team played a perfect game, am I just trying to relate to you that they played a complete game regardless how they played it? If I told you that they have a perfect marriage, am I saying that a man and a wife is that which makes a marriage complete, so every marriage is a perfect one?
If one will read what the lexicons say about the word, instead of picking a couple of words out of it that fits their preconceived notions, one will discover that the word perfect in the Gk does not mean simply mean ‘complete.’ That is a misrepresentation of the facts. It is true that the word perfect carries the meaning of ‘complete’, “IN VARIOUS APPLICATIONS of labor, growth, mental and moral states.” (Strongs, EM) It comes from the word, ‘telos’ meaning “to set out for a definite point or goal,” “ the conclusion of an act or state.” “Finally, uttermost.” (Strongs)
Perfect carries the idea of completeness in relation to something. I can see no difference in the meaning of the GK and what we understand the word today as meaning. When we think of perfect we think of something being complete in relationship to something else, just as the Greeks did. There is not a shred of evidence that the word ‘perfect’ had a completely different meaning to the authors of Scripture than it does to us. The only ones that would try and separate our understanding from their understanding of the word are those that have an agenda to uphold and promote.
DHK: Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Be honest. Are you as perfect as God is perfect? Are you just as holy and perfect as God is? Are you??
HP: Somehow I expected you to ask such questions. If all the word perfect means is complete, why would I not be as complete in the sense of being a ‘complete man,’ as God is complete in being a ‘complete God?’ Now you should be the first to admit and believe in perfection if it means nothing more than you claim it does. Are you not complete? If not, what are you missing, a limb or an kidney or something?
God does not require me to be perfect in the same sense and in the same manner as He is. That is a misinterpretation of this Scripture to imply that as you have done. God commands us to be perfect with all OUR strength, with all OUR might, with all OUR heart and soul, (not to mean in any way that there is any separation between our heart and soul) and all OUR abilities, not those of an angel, or anyone else,…..just all of what I possess and am capable of in the understanding I possess.
If I was to admit that I was not perfect in the sense that God demands out of me, what would that prove, other than I was less than perfect as God requires of me? If the whole world was living below the state of perfection God requires, would that prove that no one could? Such a conclusion utilizes flawed logic. If no on ever has climb a certain mountain, does that prove it is impossible to climb? No way. Now let’s quote a Scripture that has been used out of context, in its ‘proper context.’ “Let God be true and every man a liar.” If God requires it out of man, He is no taskmaster, and requires nothing impossible for us to do.
DHK: You would be a fool to answer yes, wouldn't you? Only God is perfect. Only God is perfectly holy. Only God is perfectly sinless. Only God is perfect in all his ways. Satan said he was perfect and was cast out of heaven. Are you making the same mistake as Lucifer did? Are you saying that you are perfect? Really? Then it is a satanic lie.
HP: I need not answer a man according to his folly. You are putting up paper ducks that do not have an ounce of validity in them. You are suggesting that God requires us to be as perfect in every way as He is. What a total misrepresentation of the commandments of a Just and loving God. Your taunting accusations are without a shred of fairness, in relationship to God and His commandments as well as myself personally.
DHK: You are not perfect. But you can be complete. You need to understand what the Bible is teaching in these verses.
HP: I have never made any statements concerning myself to you. One thing I do not need is your accusations. God is my judge. I will tell you that it is my hearts desire to walk perfect before the Lord with the help of the Holy Spirit. I cannot imagine any Christian not having that as a supreme desire and ultimate intention.
DHK: Job was not a perfect man. No one is. He was complete in all his ways. He was a mature man. Study the Bible. Find out what these words mean. No man is perfect.
HP: You will have your day in a heavenly court to instruct God as to the meaning of His Word.
DHK: Completeness and maturity are the idea behind the verse, not perfection in our modern understanding of the word.
HP: The problem lies in the modern day misinterpretation and misapplication of what God demands out of His children. Modern men, as well as many in the past, take what God commands and drive it to the ultimate illogical extreme, and in doing so make God out to demand impossibilities upon the pain of eternal torment. The god you draw a picture of is a hard taskmaster, reaping where he did not sow, requiring of man impossibilities and punishing those that could not do something even God cannot do, overcome necessitated fate. It reminds me of the way the children of Israel acted, by taking the commands of God and then adding to them until it reached the point of absurdity.
There is a vast distinction between a definition of a word and a clearly ‘structured definition’ to suit ones own private interpretational needs. You are structuring a definition to suit your own purposes, while choosing to ignore the obvious. The only light you have shed upon the word perfect, either in the GK or English, is but an infinitesimal ray pricked by the head of a needle through a piece of paper, letting just enough light through to illuminate your private preconceived notions surrounding perfection as it pertains to man in his relationship to God’s law. Your definition is entirely self-serving. The scope and direction of your investigation into the definition of the word ‘perfect’ reminds me of the Platt River in Nebraska. A mile wide and a foot deep.
HP: What or how is something complete? If I tell you have a perfect car, am I trying to tell you that you have a junker with every worn out part? If I tell you the team played a perfect game, am I just trying to relate to you that they played a complete game regardless how they played it? If I told you that they have a perfect marriage, am I saying that a man and a wife is that which makes a marriage complete, so every marriage is a perfect one?
If one will read what the lexicons say about the word, instead of picking a couple of words out of it that fits their preconceived notions, one will discover that the word perfect in the Gk does not mean simply mean ‘complete.’ That is a misrepresentation of the facts. It is true that the word perfect carries the meaning of ‘complete’, “IN VARIOUS APPLICATIONS of labor, growth, mental and moral states.” (Strongs, EM) It comes from the word, ‘telos’ meaning “to set out for a definite point or goal,” “ the conclusion of an act or state.” “Finally, uttermost.” (Strongs)
Perfect carries the idea of completeness in relation to something. I can see no difference in the meaning of the GK and what we understand the word today as meaning. When we think of perfect we think of something being complete in relationship to something else, just as the Greeks did. There is not a shred of evidence that the word ‘perfect’ had a completely different meaning to the authors of Scripture than it does to us. The only ones that would try and separate our understanding from their understanding of the word are those that have an agenda to uphold and promote.
DHK: Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Be honest. Are you as perfect as God is perfect? Are you just as holy and perfect as God is? Are you??
HP: Somehow I expected you to ask such questions. If all the word perfect means is complete, why would I not be as complete in the sense of being a ‘complete man,’ as God is complete in being a ‘complete God?’ Now you should be the first to admit and believe in perfection if it means nothing more than you claim it does. Are you not complete? If not, what are you missing, a limb or an kidney or something?
God does not require me to be perfect in the same sense and in the same manner as He is. That is a misinterpretation of this Scripture to imply that as you have done. God commands us to be perfect with all OUR strength, with all OUR might, with all OUR heart and soul, (not to mean in any way that there is any separation between our heart and soul) and all OUR abilities, not those of an angel, or anyone else,…..just all of what I possess and am capable of in the understanding I possess.
If I was to admit that I was not perfect in the sense that God demands out of me, what would that prove, other than I was less than perfect as God requires of me? If the whole world was living below the state of perfection God requires, would that prove that no one could? Such a conclusion utilizes flawed logic. If no on ever has climb a certain mountain, does that prove it is impossible to climb? No way. Now let’s quote a Scripture that has been used out of context, in its ‘proper context.’ “Let God be true and every man a liar.” If God requires it out of man, He is no taskmaster, and requires nothing impossible for us to do.
DHK: You would be a fool to answer yes, wouldn't you? Only God is perfect. Only God is perfectly holy. Only God is perfectly sinless. Only God is perfect in all his ways. Satan said he was perfect and was cast out of heaven. Are you making the same mistake as Lucifer did? Are you saying that you are perfect? Really? Then it is a satanic lie.
HP: I need not answer a man according to his folly. You are putting up paper ducks that do not have an ounce of validity in them. You are suggesting that God requires us to be as perfect in every way as He is. What a total misrepresentation of the commandments of a Just and loving God. Your taunting accusations are without a shred of fairness, in relationship to God and His commandments as well as myself personally.
DHK: You are not perfect. But you can be complete. You need to understand what the Bible is teaching in these verses.
HP: I have never made any statements concerning myself to you. One thing I do not need is your accusations. God is my judge. I will tell you that it is my hearts desire to walk perfect before the Lord with the help of the Holy Spirit. I cannot imagine any Christian not having that as a supreme desire and ultimate intention.
DHK: Job was not a perfect man. No one is. He was complete in all his ways. He was a mature man. Study the Bible. Find out what these words mean. No man is perfect.
HP: You will have your day in a heavenly court to instruct God as to the meaning of His Word.
DHK: Completeness and maturity are the idea behind the verse, not perfection in our modern understanding of the word.
HP: The problem lies in the modern day misinterpretation and misapplication of what God demands out of His children. Modern men, as well as many in the past, take what God commands and drive it to the ultimate illogical extreme, and in doing so make God out to demand impossibilities upon the pain of eternal torment. The god you draw a picture of is a hard taskmaster, reaping where he did not sow, requiring of man impossibilities and punishing those that could not do something even God cannot do, overcome necessitated fate. It reminds me of the way the children of Israel acted, by taking the commands of God and then adding to them until it reached the point of absurdity.
There is a vast distinction between a definition of a word and a clearly ‘structured definition’ to suit ones own private interpretational needs. You are structuring a definition to suit your own purposes, while choosing to ignore the obvious. The only light you have shed upon the word perfect, either in the GK or English, is but an infinitesimal ray pricked by the head of a needle through a piece of paper, letting just enough light through to illuminate your private preconceived notions surrounding perfection as it pertains to man in his relationship to God’s law. Your definition is entirely self-serving. The scope and direction of your investigation into the definition of the word ‘perfect’ reminds me of the Platt River in Nebraska. A mile wide and a foot deep.