Are Catholics really Christians?

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
But, to my mind, it stands to reason that when I get called home to heaven, there is likely to still be some 'unfinished business' on the sanctification front eg: if I were to drop down dead at my keyboard after I finished typing this(!); logic suggests, therefore, the need for some kind of purgative post-mortem event/ process to finalise and make complete that sanctification.

[***Edited to remove question about another poster's salvation which is in violation of the BB posting rules.]

In such case I would doubt about your salvation.
To me, I am not confident with many things,whether I can or cannot.
However, onething which I am so convinced is that I have been saved and will go to Heaven after my death any time, not because I have all the business finished so well, but because Jesus Christ has done everything for me, even dying for my sins.

You are not in any kind of position to judge another believer. Are you free from sin - by free, I mean not just forgiven, precious and salvation-giving though that is - but actually do not sin at all? If you are then you must surely pray for the rest of us; if you are not and were to die in the next moment, how do you think that God would stop you committing sin?

Returning to BG's post on the previous page, the Thief on the Cross is often quoted as an example of someone who was 'saved without baptism'. Without wishing to pass judgement on this opinion, I would refer back to Jesus' words to James and John when He talks about undergoing a baptism of pain suffering and death - surely the Thief underwent a far more thorough baptism than any of us ever will!

[ January 03, 2006, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[wopik]

the babylonia sun religion is followed by both catholics and their daughter churches who came out in protest.


born at the winter sol-stice (unbiblical) - sol=sun, latin.

resurrected on SUN-day (unbiblical)

Easter (Ishtar) morning christians get up early to watch the SUN-rise.


anybody see a pattern here?

 

[wopik]

And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.


Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here?........

--- Ezekiel 8:16-17


This was all done in the season where the people were weeping for the DEATH of Tammuz (Adonis, Baal-peor) see KJV, center margin --- and later in Rome for Attis/Cybele cult.

UNFORTUNATELY, this cult-custom was adopted into the church at rome for geo-political reasons.


http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=164

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

"But, to my mind, it stands to reason that when I get called home to heaven, there is likely to still be some 'unfinished business' on the sanctification front eg: if I were to drop down dead at my keyboard after I finished typing this(!); logic suggests, therefore, the need for some kind of purgative post-mortem event/ process to finalise and make complete that sanctification."

For the born again child of God, their positional sanctification...meaning that wich is necesarry to enter heaven when they die...was accomplished 2000 years ago on the cross.

Every sin...past, present, future, sins of omission, sins of comission, every sin...was completly atoned for and our sin debt to God was declared "paid in full".

Purgatory is a fairy tale.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

All sins are covered in the atonement of Jesus for those who have received the Son. We are saved forever!

The Hebrew word, 'kaphar' actually means 'to cover over, so as not to be seen.

When we have Christ in our heart we have His blood that covers all sins including Original Sin.

Purgatory, is not a stop off point on the way to Heaven and eternal life. It is a myth and human philosophy coming out of the medieval era of Roman Catholicism.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Charles Meadows]

anybody see a pattern here?

No.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Matt Black,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"But, to my mind, it stands to reason that when I get called home to heaven, there is likely to still be some 'unfinished business' on the sanctification front eg: if I were to drop down dead at my keyboard after I finished typing this(!); logic suggests, therefore, the need for some kind of purgative post-mortem event/ process to finalise and make complete that sanctification."

For the born again child of God, their positional sanctification...meaning that wich is necesarry to enter heaven when they die...was accomplished 2000 years ago on the cross.

Every sin...past, present, future, sins of omission, sins of comission, every sin...was completly atoned for and our sin debt to God was declared "paid in full".

Purgatory is a fairy tale.

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you free from sin now?

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by D28guy:
Matt Black,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"But, to my mind, it stands to reason that when I get called home to heaven, there is likely to still be some 'unfinished business' on the sanctification front eg: if I were to drop down dead at my keyboard after I finished typing this(!); logic suggests, therefore, the need for some kind of purgative post-mortem event/ process to finalise and make complete that sanctification."

For the born again child of God, their positional sanctification...meaning that wich is necesarry to enter heaven when they die...was accomplished 2000 years ago on the cross.

Every sin...past, present, future, sins of omission, sins of comission, every sin...was completly atoned for and our sin debt to God was declared "paid in full".

Purgatory is a fairy tale.

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you free from sin now? </font>[/QUOTE]No. We all still sin. However, the sin debt (that we could never pay anyway) has been paid in full by Christ on the cross 2000 years ago. When God looks at the born again Christian He sees Christ not our sins.

 

[Ray Berrian]

'No. We all still sin. However, the sin debt (that we could never pay anyway) has been paid in full by Christ on the cross 2000 years ago. When God looks at the born again Christian He sees Christ not our sins.'

Yes, we are challenged by the Lord to live free from sinning. If we sin we have and Advocate in our hearts--the Spirit of God--John 14 and our Defender/Advocate in Heaven who is our 'kaphar' Who covers our sins making us worthy of Heaven in the hour of our death.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Futhermore the RCC historically did NOT hesitate to persecute protestants EVEN if they had NEVER BEEN Catholic.

Originally posted by riverm:

Bob, I believe history pretty much proves that not only did Catholics persecute, but the Protestants weren’t actually little angles during these times either. The Protestants did their fair share of persecuting Catholics as well.

I agree that there were very brief periods of time where A nation WITHIN the vast Holy Roman Empire would turn to be protestant and would show the same intolerance for its former faith (in fact very often this was a case of Ex-Catholics practicing the same intolerance toward Catholics as they themselves practiced towards protestants while Catholic).

But there are two things to remember.

#1. Vast Catholic armies were killing each other during the start of the reformation. (This actually provided Martin Luther some relief from persecution because Catholics where so busy killing each other to deal with him).

#2. The vast amount of time that europe was ruled by Papal Rom covers century upon century and so also does their history of persecution of the saints.

#3. This is not said to justify the brief periods of Protestant intolerance of Catholics - it is just historic fact.

#4. The "value" of keeping this contrast clear is that the many centuries of persecution of the saints is predicted in God's Word in Rev 12 -- 1260 years of persecution following the resurrection of Christ and the rise of Papal Rome.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for our sins" 1John 2:2 and "NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

God's model for payment for sin - is "atonement" it is not the "grocery store model".

In atonement "nobody gets paid" and nobody gets "appeased".

In Atonement -
"God SO LOVED that HE GAVE"

IN Atonement
"God is IN Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself"

In Atonement BOTH the SACRIFICE of Christ AND the Work of Christ in Heaven as our High Priest must be accomplished. (Lev 16)

In Atonement the heavenly work of Christ our high priest (Heb 7-10) includes the Dan 7:22 act of "Judgment passed in favor of the saints"

In Atonement - prior to that judgment being passed the Matt 18 fact of "Forgiveness revoked" and the Romans 11 fact of "FEAR -- for if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" is applicable.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by D28guy:
Matt Black,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"But, to my mind, it stands to reason that when I get called home to heaven, there is likely to still be some 'unfinished business' on the sanctification front eg: if I were to drop down dead at my keyboard after I finished typing this(!); logic suggests, therefore, the need for some kind of purgative post-mortem event/ process to finalise and make complete that sanctification."

For the born again child of God, their positional sanctification...meaning that wich is necesarry to enter heaven when they die...was accomplished 2000 years ago on the cross.

Every sin...past, present, future, sins of omission, sins of comission, every sin...was completly atoned for and our sin debt to God was declared "paid in full".

Purgatory is a fairy tale.

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you free from sin now? </font>[/QUOTE]No. We all still sin. However, the sin debt (that we could never pay anyway) has been paid in full by Christ on the cross 2000 years ago. When God looks at the born again Christian He sees Christ not our sins. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that the sin debt is paid in full - and thus I part company with some Catholic interpretations of purgatory and being a place where sins still have to be paid for - but the fact is that you and I still sin and, although God sees us as perfect and sees Christ, we are not (at least not currently) without sin in reality and not in reality conformed into the image of Christ Jesus - and somehow that has to be tackled...

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
I agree that the sin debt is paid in full - and thus I part company with some Catholic interpretations of purgatory and being a place where sins still have to be paid for - but the fact is that you and I still sin and, although God sees us as perfect and sees Christ, we are not (at least not currently) without sin in reality and not in reality conformed into the image of Christ Jesus - and somehow that has to be tackled... [/QB]

You may not be believing in the truth that our future sins were already forgiven as RC are not, and are confused between confessing sins and asking for the forgiveness of sins

 

[Matt Black]

No, I'm not confused at all. What I am getting at is that there is a difference between being forgiven of our sins - which all Christians have by faith - and being free from sinning; I'm talking about the difference between being declared righteous and being transformed into the likeness of Christ. There is a difference, and that difference makes some kind of sanctification (pre and post-death) a theological necessity

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
I agree that the sin debt is paid in full - and thus I part company with some Catholic interpretations of purgatory and being a place where sins still have to be paid for - but the fact is that you and I still sin and, although God sees us as perfect and sees Christ, we are not (at least not currently) without sin in reality and not in reality conformed into the image of Christ Jesus - and somehow that has to be tackled...

Ahh - NOW we are getting somewhere.

Few if any saint dies in a state where all sinning has ended for very long. Granted most of them are probably NOT engaged in rebellion against God as they face death. (Sin is rebellion according to 1 John 3).

But the problem is that you are going to God with the SAME character that you have when you die. Your point is a good one - it asks "When is a saint - a born again Christian really 'good enough' to step into heaven".

Basically your view is that a person may be born-again, accepted by Christ, a follower of God but not actually "good enough" for heaven since they still sin.

You also seem to argue that "not all people will have 50 years of life after conversion to get their act cleaned up" - and to that I would agree.

The RC idea of purgatory is duplicitous because on the one hand they claim it is "necessary to pay for venial sins" whose temporal punishment is not paid for by Christ, but on the other hand they claim that it is to "purge the soul of sinful desires" to purify the soul for heaven.

In the case of their former definition it is easy to see how any trick available for getting Christ to apply payment (indulgences etc) is well worth the effort. But in the latter definition who in the world would want to cut that short and toss someone in heaven who still wants to sin??? If cutting that second idea "short" means that you are rushed into suddenly having a perfect character - then why didn't that happen at death? (or at conversion?)

In your model you would 'need to achieve a certain level of character development' before you are allowed into heaven. If you don't live long enough to get the job done on earth - then you need a purgatory place to "work out the kinks".

However it is instructive that no such place is mentioned in all of scripture!

The truth is that the issue is not "how far you have come" but "are you on the road or not?"! If at death you lose your sinful nature and if your mind and heart are 100% for Christ -- then even if you are only a 1 minute old Christian and then you die - you are "good to go"!! Your fully dedicated heart, mind and soul will no longer have the sinful nature to torment them - they will rejoice in sinless FREEDOM!

The problem is that often "what passes for conversion" is not really true conversion. Or perhaps it WAS conversion but then the saint loses their first love and in fact lives in compromise no longer dedicated to Christ - just a "cultural Christian". Self-decieved like the Jews in Romans 11 they "think they are still in" but they have been cast out of the vine.

"Not the hearers of the Law but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified" Romans 2:11-13. As Paul said to his readers after thanking God for them in Romans 1 -- "If He did not spare them - neither will he spare you". Romans 11.

1 Cor 9 Paul says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to OTHERS I myself should be disqualified from it"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

"I agree that the sin debt is paid in full - and thus I part company with some Catholic interpretations of purgatory and being a place where sins still have to be paid for - but the fact is that you and I still sin and, although God sees us as perfect and sees Christ, we are not (at least not currently) without sin in reality and not in reality conformed into the image of Christ Jesus - and somehow that has to be tackled..."

You're still not getting it.

It was "tackled"...2000 years ago on the cross.

From 2 Cor...

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Not imputing their trespasses to them, and has comitted to us the word of reconciliation. Now we are ambassedors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us:

We emplore you on Christs behalf, be reconciled to God. He He made Him who knew no sin, to become sin for us, so that we might become the rightiousness of God."

From the gospel of John...

"In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

As someone else posted, when God looks at us...He sees Christ. Christs 100% sinlessness has been imputed to us.

Here on earth we are still in our flesh, and we are still in need of what is sometimes called Gods "parental" forgiveness...but that has nothing to do with entering heaven

Entering heaven...immedietly after our last moment of life on earth...is guarenteed

No purgatory...because there are no sins that need any purging. Christ paid for them all. The false doctrine of purgatory is a perpetual slap in the face of Christ. It only serves...along with so many other "keep them in fear" tactics...to keep Catholics in bondage to Rome.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Magnetic Poles]

To address the OP . . .

Some Catholics are Christians, some are not.

By the same token, some Baptists are Christians, some are not.

 

[Johnv]

MP's post hits the nail on the head.

 

[Jim1999]

Frankly, these threads get so far off stream, I would like to see a page limit, and address some of the overflow questions in different threads.

Then, there are more mysteries to Christendom not answered by scripture, and they will remain mysteries until we see Jesus face to face. The sooner we accept this fact, the happier we will be in our estate. The glass may be clouded to-day, but He will reveal it all on that glorious day.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Matt Black]

Bob, I would go for the second definition of 'purgatory' you referred to in your last post. I would also home in on your statement:-

If at death you lose your sinful nature and if your mind and heart are 100% for Christ -- then even if you are only a 1 minute old Christian and then you die - you are "good to go"!!

It is this 'losing the sinful nature' to which I am referring and which I call purgatory. My mind and heart are not 100% for Christ - I wish they were! - because my sinful nature, my flesh, is at war with the Holy Spirit within me (see Rom 7 for Paul's similar 'war'). Somehow, someWHEN, they must be...for that, sanctification, either pre- or post-mortem or both, is necessary IMO.

Mike, I agree with you that there are no sins that have not been paid in full by Christ on the cross. But you also said:-

From 2 Cor...

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Not imputing their trespasses to them,...

I'm asking how we get from being imputed to being made real (as the Velveteen Rabbit might say!)...?