Are Catholics Saved?

[Humble Disciple]

If, as Christians, we are saved by grace through faith, rather than the exactness of our theology, and if God is the one who ultimately decides who is saved and who isn’t, then we aren’t in a position to say that Catholics are unsaved.

There is a difference between salvation and the assurance of salvation. I can’t be Catholic because Catholics aren’t allowed to believe that they have assurance of salvation, which would be considered the sin of presumption.

This is from the Council of Trent, which is still operative for Catholics today:

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
The Council of Trent - Sixth Session, Canons
http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Council/Trent/Sixth_Session,_Canons.html

...no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.
Decree Concerning Justification & Decree Concerning Reform | EWTN

A Protestant might say that they have the conviction of the Holy Spirit that they are saved, but that doesn’t seem to be enough of a special revelation according to Trent. I have enough anxieties as it is, so I need assurance of salvation.

John 10:28
“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God

Philippians 4:6-7
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

 

[Reynolds]

If, as Christians, we are saved by grace through faith, rather than the exactness of our theology, and if God is the one who ultimately decides who is saved and who isn’t, then we aren’t in a position to say that Catholics are unsaved.

There is a difference between salvation and the assurance of salvation. I can’t be Catholic because Catholics aren’t allowed to believe that they have assurance of salvation, which would be considered the sin of presumption.

This is from the Council of Trent, which is still operative for Catholics today:



A Protestant might say that they have the conviction of the Holy Spirit that they are saved, but that doesn’t seem to be enough of a special revelation according to Trent. I have enough anxieties as it is, so I need assurance of salvation.

Philippians 4:6-7
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I guess if they are Elect and irresistibly drawn they are. A "Calvinist" really asked that question????

 

[Marooncat79]

Looks like Canon XV condemns the Gospel to hell to me

There are some Catholics that may be saved, but they are saved in spite of the RCC, not because of faithful preaching of the Gospel in the RCC.

 

[Humble Disciple]

There are some Catholics that may be saved, but they are saved in spite of the RCC, not because of faithful preaching of the Gospel in the RCC.

I think the question is whether or not assurance is of the essence of saving faith. I haven't found any passages in the Bible which say that if you don't have assurance, then you aren't saved.

I feel sorry for Catholics that their own system forbids them from feeling personal assurance of salvation.

While Catholics often claim that assurance of salvation is a license to sin, the opposite is often true, that out of gratitude for our salvation we humbly obey God.

 

[37818]

I think it matters whether or not a person believes in God's Christ, 1 John 5:1, being it is God who does the saving, John 10:27-30. John 1:12-13 and 1 John 5:9-12.

 

[canadyjd]

I think the question is whether or not assurance is of the essence of saving faith…..

Having indwelling Holy Spirit is s the only mark, according to scripture, of being saved. I can’t find another.

peace to you

 

[tyndale1946]

I love my denomination but my denomination doesn't save me in an eternal sense... Saves me from a lot of errors but that's another topic for another OP... I'm saved by the one who dominates Salvation alone!... In counsel with the three and one Godhead... Jesus Christ!... Brother Glen

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

... I forgot one

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

[Yeshua1]

If, as Christians, we are saved by grace through faith, rather than the exactness of our theology, and if God is the one who ultimately decides who is saved and who isn’t, then we aren’t in a position to say that Catholics are unsaved.

There is a difference between salvation and the assurance of salvation. I can’t be Catholic because Catholics aren’t allowed to believe that they have assurance of salvation, which would be considered the sin of presumption.

This is from the Council of Trent, which is still operative for Catholics today:





A Protestant might say that they have the conviction of the Holy Spirit that they are saved, but that doesn’t seem to be enough of a special revelation according to Trent. I have enough anxieties as it is, so I need assurance of salvation.

John 10:28
“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God

Philippians 4:6-7
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

There are and have been saved Catholics, despite the perversions of Rome, but saved due to the Grace of God, and they need to depart once saved!

 

[Marooncat79]

Looks like Canon XV condemns the Gospel to hell to me

There are some Catholics that may be saved, but they are saved in spite of the RCC, not because of faithful preaching of the Gospel in the RCC.

I want to be crystal clear here

I find absolutely nothing funny about the condemnation of the Gospel of Christ condemned to hell by the RCC

if you really find it funny, I suggest that you do a quick spiritual inventory of your spiritual condition before God

 

[canadyjd]

I want to be crystal clear here

I find absolutely nothing funny about the condemnation of the Gospel of Christ condemned to hell by the RCC

if you really find it funny, I suggest that you do a quick spiritual inventory of your spiritual condition before God

Who are you referring to? Why would you question someone’s “spiritual condition before God” based on their sense of humor?

peace to you

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Who are you referring to? Why would you question someone’s “spiritual condition before God” based on their sense of humor?

peace to you

I believe Maroon is referring to Walter's "funny" emoji tacked on to his post (#3).

 

[rockytopva]

The first complete English-language version of the Bible dates from 1382 and was credited to John Wycliffe and his followers. - biblical translation
Historians trace the earliest "Baptist" church to 1609 in Amsterdam, Dutch Republic with English Separatist John Smyth as its pastor. - Baptists - Wikipedia

I believe between the time of 310 AD and 1410 AD, 1,100 years marks the time of the Pergameon (Orthodox) and Thyatirean (Catholic) church ages. In which was a totally different form of church as we see it today.

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

Smyna - Martyr - Foxes book of martyrs has the persecutions as ten
Pregamos - Orthodox - Pergos is a tower, needed in the dark ages beginning with Constantine
Thyatira - Catholic - Took form with Charlemange

The Thyatirean Candlestick: Catholic Church Age (Charlemagne)

It would be as an estimate that the Thyatirean Church age began with Charlemagne, who was a champion for the cause of Christianity. Appalled by the illiteracy of his time, Charlemagne imported scholars from Ireland, Britain, and Italy. Out of these schools were to arise the universities of Europe. In 787, Charlemagne issued to all the bishops and abbots of France a historic Capitulare de litteris colendis, or directive on the study of letters. It reproached ecclesiastics for “uncouth language” and exhorted every cathedral and monastery to establish schools where clergy and laity alike might learn to read and write. A further capitulary of 789 urged the directors of these schools to “take care to make no difference between the sons of serfs and of freemen, so that they might come and sit on the same benches to study grammar, music, and arithmetic.” Upon this foundation was the Thyatira church built. It was too bad we would not see any more Charlemagne’s during this church age.

“And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.” - Revelations 2:18 - 28

Charlemagne gave the church so much power with the edicts of his lifetime that the church age became corrupt to the point that it was compared to the evil woman Jezebel. The church began persecutions from denying folks communion to setting up great inquisitions. “Which have not known the depths of Satan” may refer to Dante Alighieri, who terrified Europe with his writings. The church became just as ruthless as the pagans before them in the arts of death and torture. The great tribulation came about in 1347, in which the Black Death killed an estimated 25% of the European population. Thyatira means to “blow smoke” in the Greek, possibly because of the darkness the Thyatireans would bring into the lives of others. I think that the spirit of Jezebel has long ago left the Catholic church. You would not have wanted to have spoken out against the Catholic church in her time frame and geography!

I believe there were saved folks during this time, accompanied with many issues as Christ has spoken through his word.

 

[canadyjd]

I believe Maroon is referring to Walter's "funny" emoji tacked on to his post (#3).

I see it now. Thanks

peace to you

 

[Humble Disciple]

My own view of assurance is perhaps closer to the Catholic teaching than the "easy-believism" promoted by many evangelicals today.

This is from the doctrinal statement of the Salvation Army, of which I used to be a member:

Continued obedient faith
Our salvation is assured as long as we continue to exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Such faith is expressed in obedience to his leadings, will and commands. Obedience as a free-will choice is a consequence of faith, and without it, faith dies.
Salvation

This would mean that our assurance of salvation is conditional upon continued, obedient faith, rather than the presumption that God will save us no matter how we live, even if we fall away from the faith.

I agree with Catholics that good works and avoidance of sin are necessary to confirm our salvation, but I wouldn't use the same list as to what those good works are, such as praying the rosary or performing Eucharistic adoration.

At the same time, I believe that good works and avoidance of sin are a gift of God's grace, imparted to us as sanctifying grace from Christ's finished work on the cross:
Imparted righteousness - Wikipedia

This seems to more or less be the Catholic teaching as well:

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) is a document created and agreed to by the Catholic Church's Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) and the Lutheran World Federation in 1999 as a result of extensive ecumenical dialogue. It states that the churches now share "a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ."[1] To the parties involved, this essentially resolves the 500-year-old conflict over the nature of justification which was at the root of the Protestant Reformation. The World Methodist Council adopted the Declaration on 18 July 2006.[2][3] The World Communion of Reformed Churches (representing the "80 million members of Congregational, Presbyterian, Reformed, United, Uniting, and Waldensian churches"), adopted the Declaration in 2017.[4]
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification - Wikipedia

 

[Yeshua1]

My own view of assurance is perhaps closer to the Catholic teaching than the "easy-believism" promoted by many evangelicals today.

This is from the doctrinal statement of the Salvation Army, of which I used to be a member:


This would mean that our assurance of salvation is conditional upon continued, obedient faith, rather than the presumption that God will save us no matter how we live, even if we fall away from the faith.

I agree with Catholics that good works and avoidance of sin are necessary to confirm our salvation, but I wouldn't use the same list as to what those good works are, such as praying the rosary or performing Eucharistic adoration.

At the same time, I believe that good works and avoidance of sin are a gift of God's grace, imparted to us as sanctifying grace from Christ's finished work on the cross:
Imparted righteousness - Wikipedia

This seems to more or less be the Catholic teaching as well:

Rome rejected reformation and pauline Justification, per trent, still hold and teach damnable doctrine!

 

[Walter]

Rome rejected reformation and pauline Justification, per trent, still hold and teach damnable doctrine!

I usually don't post links because most people on the board ignore them. But, this link by former AOG pastor makes the case for the Catholic Church:


We Can Work It Out

 

[Yeshua1]

I usually don't post links because most people on the board ignore them. But, this link by former AOG pastor makes the case for the Catholic Church:


We Can Work It Out

as long as Rome holds to Trent, its holding to another Gospel!

 

[Walter]

as long as Rome holds to Trent, its holding to another Gospel!

Did you bother to read the article?

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

The wife and I both being Ex-Catholics believe that there are members of all Bible-believing denominations that are saved. We would include Catholics in that "Bible Believing" definition, but they are at the fringe.

I would say that out of all denominations, Catholics would have the "least" percentage of "Saved" folks, and that when you do encounter a "Saved" Catholic it is despite the teachings of the pope rather than because of them.

We would both evangelize Catholics with the expectation that they're not Saved, but would be pleasantly surprised if they are.

 

[Walter]

The wife and I both being Ex-Catholics believe that there are members of all Bible-believing denominations that are saved. We would include Catholics in that "Bible Believing" definition, but they are at the fringe.

I would say that out of all denominations, Catholics would have the "least" percentage of "Saved" folks, and that when you do encounter a "Saved" Catholic it is despite the teachings of the pope rather than because of them.

We would both evangelize Catholics with the expectation that they're not Saved, but would be pleasantly surprised if they are.

The wife and I are both 'Ex-Baptist', found the Catholic Church was the Church established by Christ and believe there are 'saved folk' in all denominations. Many Catholics have placed their faith in Christ. There are also many, many cultural Catholics (like I expect you probably were) who were Catholic in name only. You obviously didn't understand the teachings of the Catholic Church or recognize that the Early Church was Catholic to the core. BTW, I completely support you evangelizing cultural Catholics who have never placed their faith and trust in Jesus as much as I support your doing the same with Baptists. My next door neighbors in Visalia, Ca were Baptist Sunday school teachers and also denied that Hell existed and didn't believe in a physical (but spiritual resurrection) of Jesus. They attended the American Baptist Church which was the largest Baptist (but dying quickly) church in town. I guess you would support 'evangelizing' these folk as well?