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Are certain political views sinful?
- Thread starter Calminian
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Folks should try not to provoke attacks,
The discussion has moved fast, & I'm late into it. I'll quote this as a basis for my contribution.
I've lived in the UK since 1939, through WW2 & the subsequent implementation of socialist policies which were designed to make -
health care free at the point of need;
education, including higher & university available & free to all;
affordable housing for all;
etc.
all paid for by taxes. Taxes benefit everybody as they are paid out of income & all receive the benefits.
My father left school at 14 & was a shop delivery boy. My mother left home at 14 (abusive father) knocked on doors & was accepted as a live in maid at a girls' boarding school. Our parents were determined that we should take advantage of the opportunities being offered.
The abortion laws came into effect because of desperation, lack of care & dangerous back-street abortions, NOT because of an attitude, as at present, of promiscuity, free sex & aborting the resultant foetus. The prevailing attitude was that in every unmarried pregnancy the girl was the guilty party. "Bastard" was the ultimate insult. Lack of care for unmarried mother & baby was a major cause, especially because a girl with a bastard would be unmarriageable.
Safe abortion for health reasons (danger to life of mother or baby) was introduced. In no way am I in favour of abortion on demand. Babies are very precious, God-given treasures.
Politically I stand on the Socialist side. I'm a member of the UK Labour Party. I am against Conservative policies that seek to maintain privilege for the rich at the expense of the poor. We should all have enough to live on, support our families, including the elderly, and have basic housing.
This should be regardless of religion or ethnicity - we all have the same needs. Immigrants are the symptom of problems in their home countries, normally the result of war or oppression. They should be allowed in & allowed to work, not kept in "limbo."
I've lived in the UK since 1939, through WW2 & the subsequent implementation of socialist policies which were designed to make -
health care free at the point of need;
education, including higher & university available & free to all;
affordable housing for all;
etc.
all paid for by taxes. Taxes benefit everybody as they are paid out of income & all receive the benefits.
My father left school at 14 & was a shop delivery boy. My mother left home at 14 (abusive father) knocked on doors & was accepted as a live in maid at a girls' boarding school. Our parents were determined that we should take advantage of the opportunities being offered.
The abortion laws came into effect because of desperation, lack of care & dangerous back-street abortions, NOT because of an attitude, as at present, of promiscuity, free sex & aborting the resultant foetus. The prevailing attitude was that in every unmarried pregnancy the girl was the guilty party. "Bastard" was the ultimate insult. Lack of care for unmarried mother & baby was a major cause, especially because a girl with a bastard would be unmarriageable.
Safe abortion for health reasons (danger to life of mother or baby) was introduced. In no way am I in favour of abortion on demand. Babies are very precious, God-given treasures.
Politically I stand on the Socialist side. I'm a member of the UK Labour Party. I am against Conservative policies that seek to maintain privilege for the rich at the expense of the poor. We should all have enough to live on, support our families, including the elderly, and have basic housing.
This should be regardless of religion or ethnicity - we all have the same needs. Immigrants are the symptom of problems in their home countries, normally the result of war or oppression. They should be allowed in & allowed to work, not kept in "limbo."
This is bunk.
How is an abortion "safe" for a baby? Its not the baby is slaughtered as it is ripped apart limb by limb. Further, it is never right to slaughter the child to save the life of the mother.
The brother-in-law of Mayor Pete (the gay christian presidential candidate) was on Tucker Carlson. He's a pastor and he's calling for his brother-in-law to repent and stop misrepresenting Scripture regarding abortion.
I thought this clip would be very helpful to this discussion, as he calls the church to look at Scripture and start respecting humanity.
Some other verses that come to mind are Jesus and John the Baptist being addressed and human in the womb. Would a desperate Mary have been justified in aborting her son, so long as the motive was desperation?
I thought this clip would be very helpful to this discussion, as he calls the church to look at Scripture and start respecting humanity.
Some other verses that come to mind are Jesus and John the Baptist being addressed and human in the womb. Would a desperate Mary have been justified in aborting her son, so long as the motive was desperation?
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Ok, help me decide how to vote. Is it sinful to vote for someone, like the most pro-l*fe president in history, who supports marriage equality and transg*nders using the bathroom of their choice?
I've already asked once, but you must have missed it. Please answer yes or no, is it sinful or not?
If you say "yes", it is sinful, you will be consistent with your stated religious beliefs, but undermine your political efforts.
If you say "no", you compromise your stated religious beliefs, but support your political efforts.
Yes or no, is it sinful to vote for such a person?
If you are unwilling to answer yes or no, you are sitting it out, doing nothing, which you have already declared to be "wrong".
If you don't answer yes or no, I'm afraid my confidence in your ability to discern right and wrong when it comes to sinful political views will be sharply downgraded.
Peace to you
Yes. Trump is appointing conservative judges, which is really all that matters on any of these issues. When you understand our US government, the executive and legislative branches can't do anything pro-life or marriage dues to the judicial branch. If the judicial branch does not change, none of these things will ever change.
As someone mentioned earlier, all political choices are the lesser of 2 evils. All of them! But in the case of judges, Trump is battling all of these moral issues.
All you have to do is look at the alternative. What federal judges would Hillary have appointed had she won? Trump just appointed his 160th federal judge, and all conservative groups are agreeing, he's done a fantastic job. That's going to be security for our kids and their kids.
Just out of curiosity, do you believe there was a fall a few thousand years ago? All of us have a sin nature. Even if you were running for office, because of your sin nature, you'd be a compromise vote. No one is pure.
Thus, we christians always choose the lesser of 2 evils. We have no other choice. Thankfully, Trump is very conservative. With all his faults and short comings, he fulfills the biblical role of a governing authority better than any I've seen in a while, including Reagan. God's purpose for sovereign governments is to protect the innocent, and punish the guilty. Trump does this from the womb to the border. God bless him.
One final note. I firmly believe it is the job of the Church to influence society away from all this gender nonsense going on today. More and more pastors are starting to preach on it, with some success. There was even a recent study showing teens are less accepting of it in recent years.
Trump is doing the best thing of all, he's protecting free speech and religious liberty. We can't and really shouldn't ask for anything more than that. This is a battle the Church needs to lead, with protected freedom from the government.
But I don't have to answer to you.
Put it this way. Let's say the life or your child was being threatened and Trump was the only one that could save him. AlI he needed was a few votes from your friends to put him in authority. Then imagine those friends said to you, sorry, I can't vote for him. He has 2 divorces and some bad beliefs. Yes, he wants to save kids, but I can't be compromised. I'm going to have let them die.
Something tells me you'd be very hurt and offended by this, if not outraged. I know I would be.
Something tells me you'd be very hurt and offended by this, if not outraged. I know I would be.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Ok, you say it is sinful to vote for the most pro-l*fe president in history because of his views on marriage equality and transg*nder issues. You then say it is also sinful to vote for anyone because we all have a sin nature.
So, in your view all Christians are deliberately engaging in sinful activity when they vote, right?
Wouldn't it be better to not deliberately engage in sinful activity against God?
Peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
This is where you and I have a different world view. I don't look to politicians to save me or my family. I know they will always disappoint. Additionally. I would never ask a brother or sister in Christ to violate their conscience by doing something they believe is sinful, no matter my personal interest.
I would trust God and praise Him no matter the outcome.
Peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I agree. I would add that we should never look to a secular government to enforce our views on society.
Peace to you
Even murder or slavery? You don't believe we should have looked to secular government to end slavery?
If someone was trying to kill you or your child, you wouldn't look to the police dept. (a government office) for protection? You wouldn't file a restraining order because that's depending on secular government?
That just seems so over the top cruel to your family and to yourself. How can a Christian read Romans 13 and not see the purpose of government and utilize government when they can do good?
I guess then, you would never call 911 and compromise your beliefs.
canadyjd said: ↑"I didn't ask you anything."
this is a public debate open forum and as such i participated in your post number 106.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
These are straw man arguments.
The discussion is about whether certain political views are sinful and whether voting for someone with certain political views is sinful.
You have given your opinion. According to your view, every time a Christian votes, they are willfully sinning against God, but they should do it anyway, because governments have been established by God and we should participate.
Additionally, Christians must only vote Repubs because the Dems are "pro-abortion holocaust".
So essentially, in your view, Christians must willfully sin against God by voting, and become political partisans that attempt to use the power of the federal government to force their religious views on everyone else.
Some here would add that if you hold certain political views the wrath of God should be brought down upon you and pray for your death by cancer.
Have I misunderstood your positions? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace to you
I posted as quoted below as I am coming from a UK Socialist position.
It seems as if the thread is really Republicans versus Democrats, & is in support of Trump as he has adopted an anti-abortion stance to gain Christian support. There are wider issues, & other parties, or other candidates to support.
The USA is a country dominated by European immigrants yet has a hostile policy to further immigrants, many of whom have been displaced by US hostile policies to their countries.
Also the US has policies in the interests of a foreign power - a foreign power supported by US taxes to such an extent that it can provided free healthcare & education for all its Jewish citizens, while the taxpayers themselves lack such provision.
That slaughter implies a callous disregard for both mother & child & for God-given life. A sympathetic consideration of the health of mother & child would prevent such savagery.
It's an ethical/religious decision not taken with that attitude. If the mother dies, the baby will probably die in the womb. But the thread is concerning politics & voting, & there are many other issues. Care for the needy; foreign policy; minority issues, minimum wages; colour prejudice; women's rights (other than the "right" to abort); our youngsters fighting & dying in foreign wars; taxation & allocation; housing & homelessness; trade unions; etc, etc.
All parties are led by & include non-Christians. We need to consider overall policies. Especially as guided by Paul in Romans 13. A single issue is not sufficient grounds for support.
It seems as if the thread is really Republicans versus Democrats, & is in support of Trump as he has adopted an anti-abortion stance to gain Christian support. There are wider issues, & other parties, or other candidates to support.
The USA is a country dominated by European immigrants yet has a hostile policy to further immigrants, many of whom have been displaced by US hostile policies to their countries.
Also the US has policies in the interests of a foreign power - a foreign power supported by US taxes to such an extent that it can provided free healthcare & education for all its Jewish citizens, while the taxpayers themselves lack such provision.
That slaughter implies a callous disregard for both mother & child & for God-given life. A sympathetic consideration of the health of mother & child would prevent such savagery.
It's an ethical/religious decision not taken with that attitude. If the mother dies, the baby will probably die in the womb. But the thread is concerning politics & voting, & there are many other issues. Care for the needy; foreign policy; minority issues, minimum wages; colour prejudice; women's rights (other than the "right" to abort); our youngsters fighting & dying in foreign wars; taxation & allocation; housing & homelessness; trade unions; etc, etc.
All parties are led by & include non-Christians. We need to consider overall policies. Especially as guided by Paul in Romans 13. A single issue is not sufficient grounds for support.
If one supports the slaughter of unborn children nothing else matters
No it doesnt
Rather we want immigrants but we want them to come here legally with a desire to assimilate.
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