Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
I taught at a strong ifb accredited college in 96-00. 25k and housing. That is NOT as much as most ifb pastors in the state received.

And I would not receive much more if I were full time in our local state college here (I've taught adjunct and the $$ is lousy for that)

A starting professor makes a lot more than an adjunct.

 

[Craigbythesea]

We all don't live in the liberal Northeast with its salary structure. Or Orange County.

Dr. Bob,

You must have an old map! Chicago has been moved to the Midwest. And California, the home of Stanford University, is now on the West Coast.

http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/vicinity.html

P.S. My home in Orange County is still for sale (it's a long drive to Stanford) and I am offering a $100 discount to Baptist Board Members in good standing!

To view my home on line go to:

http://realestate.aol.realtor.com/Prop/1041053602?gate=aolrealestate

 

[Dr. Bob]

Blues states. We in the Red states have only disdain . .

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Blues states. We in the Red states have only disdain . .

And of course we in the Blue states have much love, compassion, and pity in our hearts and souls for our most unfortunate brothers and sisters in the Red states.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
paid, I know of many who spent far less time in attendence at colleges who took far less than ten years to get multiple doctorates. It's not uncommon whether one attends the university or does extension studies.

So what? TTU, I think, gave John R. Rice's horse an honorary Doctor of Horse Sense. I'd rather like to find a cheap doctorate for my male donkey. Do you know where I could get one?

He's got more sense than a lot of people with doctorates.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by rufus:
paidagogos, thank you for your comments about degrees.

I'm satisfied with the earned degrees with my name on them. God has verified through many blessings that I did what He led me to do. That's all I need.

Rufus

Wonderful, Dr. Rufus! Do you use your Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Ugaritic, etc. very much in ministry? I'm sure that you're conversant with these, of course.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Jabbezzz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by scubablt:
The DOM heard from more than one Search Committee that they did not put much stock at all in the L.R. Degrees or in other Diploma Mills.

Poor Charles Stanley! His Luther Rice doctorate has really diminished his credibility, hasn't it?

</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, along with other things!

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Campus work is optimal for undergrad and grad. That interaction is iron-sharpening-iron.

But PhD/DMin type is mostly individualized and lends itself to short seminars and long times in singular ministry.

I have a friend who is a MD and she didn't attend class (i.e. lectures) in med school. She did the practicals and studied for the tests. Do you ever wonder about your doctor?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Benfranklin403:
I find it baffling that some Pastors would have such low ethical standards as to get degrees from diploma mills. Can anyone explain that? For instance Patriot University was (is) without doubt a diploma mill. If I were evaluating an application, I would consider a degree from a diploma mill highly negative. I have known a couple of people who had that sort of degree and they were ethically compromised in other areas as well.

Hey man! This ain't nothing new. The Pharisees were doing it in Biblical times. They loved the appellation of "Rabbi, Rabbi" whereas it is "Doctor, Doctor" now.

There's a lot of old Baptist Pharisees out there!

 

[paidagogos]

This thread is really fun. You can spot the guys with the degree mill rags. Man, it's fun to see them squirm. The ironic part is that the accredited schools have their problems too. It is just that they have the appearance of respectability. It's all a game of one upsmanship. Even the biggies such Harvard (pronounced through the nose with a nasal accent), Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, etc. produce a lot of duds. A degree does not mean that one is necessarily educated, intelligent, or even competent. By the same standard, the lack of a degree does not mean one is less intelligent, educated, or competent. One of the top mathematicians in the USA doesn’t have a degree—not one. Bucky Fuller didn’t have a degree. William Faulkner, whose writings even college professors cannot decipher, did not have a degree. Bill Gates is a college dropout. If memory serves me correctly, Steven Wozniak built the first Apple without benefit of a sheepskin. ad infinitum

For the really intelligent, innovative, and creative person, a college degree is superfluous. Although I am an educator, I do not for one minute believe that education is the beginning and end of all things. Life is education, not a set of artificially contrived experiences. People benefit more or less in varying degrees (no pun) from schooling.

Yep! I’m greatly amused at the posturing and posing of the Baptist intelligentsia. The thing that settles the issue for me regarding these “less than wonderful schools” (John Bear’s term, since some seem to know him) is that I haven’t seen a single original or intelligent thought from one of their alumni. Much like the dull and accredited institutions, it’s the same old pabulum and claptrap that is chewed, swallowed, regurgitated and swallowed again.

As stated elsewhere, my whole problem is the academic inflation factor. So-called Bible schools, actually better named vanity schools, offer a Bible institute level of instruction (nothing wrong in that of itself) and award doctorates. Let’s give the students a ThG instead of a PhD. It is a vanity thing. Everyone is seeking significance. Where is humility? IMHO, humility is a Biblical virtue.
.

 

[Ziggy]

paidagogos: "TTU, I think, gave John R. Rice's horse an honorary Doctor of Horse Sense."

Correction (to avoid slandering TTU, which is a legitimate and accredited school, some of whose professors I know quite well):

John R. Rice's horse was was awarded the first honorary doctorate under the auspices of Hyles-Anderson College by Jack Hyles himself.

The second recipient of an honorary doctorate by H-A (also presented by Hyles himself) was Gail Riplinger.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Proves that Jack knew the value of a degree from his school!

Serious question on topic: Would a school like HAC (with a campus and classroom instruction) be considered as a "mill"?

 

[Paul33]

paidagogos,

You bring up some good points. The requirment of a Ph.D. in order to teach these days even in Bible schools is sad. Some of the best professors I've had didn't have Ph.D's. Some of the worst, did.

Secondly, the phony honorary doctorate that so many fundamentalists honor each other with is a joke. If we are to be separate from the world, why do fundamentalists strive so hard to be like the world with their doctorates? But the hypocrisy is that they don't earn them, they give them to each other.

So if honorary doctorates are acceptable, why not degree mills. You won't give me one, so I'll buy one! So there is a place for degree mills. Fundamentalists can buy their doctorate if their school won't give them one!

One more thing. Those who earn their doctorates often go by their first name. Those who buy them or have them given to them often go by Dr. So and So.

Go figure.

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
Yes, along with other things!

Ummm, let's see. Daily and weekly television/radio ministry, best-selling author, successful pastor.................'

Yep, the LRS Th.D. has really hurt him.

And let's not forget Spiros Zodhiates, leader of AMG publishers. The guy is a Greek scholar, prolific writer and author of numerous books.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Gentlemen, I received the following e-mail message from Lil Nakutis:

Trinity College of the Bible and Seminary in Newburgh IN was granted
candidacy status on Feb. 5, 2004.
--
Lil Nakutis
Information Management Coordinator
The Higher Learning Commission of NCA
30 N. LaSalle Street, Suite 2400
Chicago, IL 60602
Voice: (312) 263-0456 x113 / Fax: (312) 263-7462
E-mail: lnakutis@hlcommission.org

Another Baptist Board member who does not wish to come forward sent me in a P.M. what he says are the contents of an e-mail that he received from Lil Nakutis about Trinity College of the Bible and Seminary in Newburgh IN.:

I also noticed this on North Central's website. Basically, Trinity now has 4 years to acheive academic respectability. If they can't do it, they lose candidacy status. My suspicions are that (like certain other unaccredited schools I know of) they can't afford to lose paying clientele merely to raise the academic bar, so in the interim they will milk the candidate status for all it's worth.

If this quote is genuine, and knowing the party who sent it to me I believe that it is, Trinity has four years to achieve what it does NOT presently have, namely “academic respectability.” Degrees from such an institution are as worthless as a rotten head of lettuce.

I posted above Lil Nakutis’ telephone number and e-mail address. If this issue is of interest to you, I suggest that you verify the quote because I can not guarantee the accuracy of it.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I'm glad you're so upbeat and optimistic!

I've seen the trend in schools, once they were granted candidacy by North Central, to accelerate their programs and meet the needed goals.

I watched Maranatha BBC go through this. And North Central in Minneapolis. Pillsbury BBC (because of enrollment problems) withdrew from the process and went AABC instead. And others. It is an exciting process to watch!

My prayer for Trinity is that they have the integrity to see this through and reach the next step.

 

[Craigbythesea]

My prayer for Trinity is that they have the integrity to see this through and reach the next step.

Amen!

 

[Craigbythesea]

One more thing. Those who earn their doctorates often go by their first name. Those who buy them or have them given to them often go by Dr. So and So.

I have certainly found this to be true. The men and woman that I know who have the most privileged educations know that they do and feel no need to impress anyone by calling themselves Dr. So and So, and even feel somewhat insulted when people use their title apart from the academic world where it belongs.

My opinion:

The very moment when Dr. Educated drives out of the faculty parking lot of the college or university where he teaches, he becomes Jim or John. And if his destination is home, the golf course, or a barbecue at his neighbor’s house he is still Jim or John when he arrives. Only if his destination is an academic function where students are preset is it suitable for him or others to use his title, for by doing so, they are suggesting that he is somehow above the others present, bring embarrassment not only to the others present, but also to Jim or John.

I have never addressed a pastor of a church as Dr. Holiness apart from an academic function, and even there very seldom, as I find it to be very inappropriate.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Many people call me "Pastor Bob" or since 1980 "Dr Bob". Guess it is the formal title and informal nickname.

I go by "Bob" everywhere. Many at church will pray for "Bob" as he preaches, etc. I personally love that informality.

BTW, my friends call me "Grif".

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
My opinion:

The very moment when Dr. Educated drives out of the faculty parking lot of the college or university where he teaches, he becomes Jim or John.

Thank you for sharing what is one person's opinion. Of course, everyone doesn't hold this opinion. Cases in point:

1. Most medical doctors are called "Dr." outside their professional practice, except by a core group of friends.

2. Senators (Mayors, Sheriffs, etc) are almost always called by their given title outside their office.

3. Dr. Condaleeza Rice is referred to by the media as "Dr. Rice" on myriad occasions.

4. Ministers are referred to as "Rev." or "Pastor" outside the parameters of the church.

5. And the list goes on..................

So, if a minister has earned a doctorate, uses the title professionally, and is addressed as "Dr. John Doe" by parishioners, nothing is amiss in such a situation.

Of course, I agree that if one has "bought" a degree and demands that everyone address him/her as "Dr.," this is a different matter entirely.