Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dave G.:
PG: "The first sentence of the above quote kills your argument. “National accreditation” is by a centralized ministry of education. This is a technical term with a defined meaning and application, not just a descriptive phrase produced by combining national and accreditation.”

Dave: You seem to have assumed that I am arguing for something here as a partisan. The DoE site covers accrediting bodies such as TRACS or DETC, which I never claimed had superior accreditation to regional bodies. I don’t know why you’re so hostile.

TRACS, DETC, and AALE are DoE approved and generally referred to as “national accreditors”, as they accredit schools throughout all six regions. Even the DoE on their website says, “The various commissions of the regional accrediting associations, for example, perform institutional accreditation, as do many national accrediting agencies.”


PG: “Ha! The so-called "national level accrediting bodies" (I assume you are referring to TRACS and DETC, etc.) are generally less favorably regarded than the regional associations.”

Dave: That is generally true, but I don’t recall claiming otherwise. I believe there are excellent schools that are regionally accredited, TRACS accredited (Northwest Baptist Seminary), and even unaccredited (Central Baptist Theological Seminary).

Nope! I never assumed a thing. I'm just arguing that we do not have “national accreditation” per se. You seemed to take the opposite view. Accreditation at the national level geographical does not constitute “national accreditation” as by a national ministry of education. The DoE website clearly states that we do not have a national ministry of education. The DoE is not a national ministry of education as in other countries. I thought that I made this clear in my previous post; although I don’t think you understood the difference. Otherwise, you would not still be debating the issue.

Hostile? I’m not hostile. I’m just trying to win my point. What’s wrong with that?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
[snip]
The North Central US has the highest standards of education across the nation. The deep South and the areas of the hispanic invasion (south Texas, et al) have the lowest.

Dr. Bob, are you referring to the region or the accrediting agency? If you are referring to the North Central Association, I heartily disagree. They have the easiest standards of the six regional accrediting associations.

Furthermore, I disagree about the quality of the post-secondary education in the South. There is a huge difference between the public universities and the private colleges in the South. Even some public universities (e.g. UNC-Chapel Hill) compare head-to-head with anything in the north. Davidson College in NC, for example, probably has a better undergraduate chemistry program than say Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, etc.

At Davidson, you have Ivy League Ph.D.'s teaching small classes of undergraduates whereas bored TA's teach large classes of undergraduates at Harvard. Lots of the Ivy League schools are over-rated in their undergrad programs. They only admit highly motivated and intellectual applicants who are going to be successful regardless of where you plop them down. The success of their graduates is due to the individuals, not the school doing a good job. These type A folks are going to be successful regardless.

BTW, a lot of the perception regarding low education standards are socio-economic conditions and language deficiencies related to minorities. Blacks, in particular, typically have lower reading scores that may be related to the way they speak and hear sounds. Research among Thai immigrants in CA found that they perceive sounds differently than native CA school children. I mean that they actually hear the same pitch and sound differently. This may be the answer of why minorities have generally scored low in reading--they hear the sounds differently. Reading, of course, is directly correlated to most other types of acadmeic learning. Therefore, the so-called lower education standards may be more a function of demographics than educational standards.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dave G.:
[snip]
Dave: You seem to have assumed that I am arguing for something here as a partisan. The DoE site covers accrediting bodies such as TRACS or DETC, which I never claimed had superior accreditation to regional bodies. I don’t know why you’re so hostile.

[snip]

Dave: That is generally true, but I don’t recall claiming otherwise. [snip]

HOSTILE? I'm not hostile--I just don't agree! Now, it's your turn. Why are you so paranoid? Lighten up--I ain't trashing you.

Be happy! Life's too short.

 

[rufus]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Do you believe "degree mills" are ethical? Degree mills being "schools" where little attention is paid to scholarship, and one can quickly pass the course work in order to attain a "professional degree."

Do you consider the following "real" schools or "degree mills"?

- Trinity College of the Bible of Newburgh, Indiana
- Andersonville Baptist Seminary of Camillia, Georgia
- Louisiana Baptist University of Shreveport, Louisiana
- Luther Rice Seminary

I attended Trinity. It took me three years to get one doctorate and another two years to get a second doctorate.

I had to turn in a 500 page paper for the first, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

I had to turn in a 250 page paper for the second, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

Then I had to be on campus for seminars and finally for graduation.

Therefore, I do not consider Trinity a "mill" of unethical sorts.

Rufus

 

[Craigbythesea]

I attended Trinity. It took me three years to get one doctorate and another two years to get a second doctorate.

I had to turn in a 500 page paper for the first, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

I had to turn in a 250 page paper for the second, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

Then I had to be on campus for seminars and finally for graduation.

Therefore, I do not consider Trinity a "mill" of unethical sorts.

There is a little bit of a difference between stepping over two mud puddles and swimming across both the English Channel and the Bering Straight . Even two “doctorates” from Trinity “College” would not give one the academic credentials required to be admitted to a good college prep school, let alone graduate from one with a high school diploma!

Trinity “College” is a degree mill of the worst kind. It charges many times the going rate of $19.99 for a doctorate (and Wal-Mart just got through rolling back their price to $17.38), and makes the purchaser wait even longer than standing in line at Wal-Mart the day before Christmas. And unlike the doctoral degrees sold by Wal-Mart, Trinity “College” markets their doctoral degrees as being the real thing and even deceives their customers into believing that they actually got an education and earned a real degree. Any business that is more unethical than Wal-Mart should definitely be boycotted

.

 

[Paul33]

Rufus,

I'm not going to debate the merits of your degrees.

But Craigbythesea's response would be the reason why I would hesitate attending there.

How do you handle that kind of criticism and is it valid in your opinion?

Also, if it is not valid, how do you handle that kind of criticism when it crops up?

 

[gb93433]

What does it tell you about the school when a diploma mill advertises? If the only thing they want is your wallet and you want their piece of paper then you are disqualified for ministry because of laziness and ethics.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Craigbythesea is way off base and his hyperbole unbecoming an intelligent discussion. In many areas, but especially in this one. But we are all free to give opinions.

Trinity is now candidate status with North Central (one of the six main US regional accrediting programs).

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Trinity “College” is a degree mill of the worst kind...Trinity “College” markets their doctoral degrees as being the real thing and even deceives their customers into believing that they actually got an education and earned a real degree.

I would love to see Craigbythesea provide documentation to substantiate the above assertions.

 

[rufus]

Originally posted by Paul33:
Rufus,

I'm not going to debate the merits of your degrees.

But Craigbythesea's response would be the reason why I would hesitate attending there.

How do you handle that kind of criticism and is it valid in your opinion?

Also, if it is not valid, how do you handle that kind of criticism when it crops up?

Rufus says that Craigbythesea has a right to his opinions and yet his points are not valid. I mostly ignore those kinds of comments, while respecting the commenter.

I went to school at Trinity because I felt led to go there and I really liked their conservative stance.

BTW, I like WalMart, too. How much money have they made by given customers what they want! lol

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by rufus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rev. G:
Do you believe "degree mills" are ethical? Degree mills being "schools" where little attention is paid to scholarship, and one can quickly pass the course work in order to attain a "professional degree."

Do you consider the following "real" schools or "degree mills"?

- Trinity College of the Bible of Newburgh, Indiana
- Andersonville Baptist Seminary of Camillia, Georgia
- Louisiana Baptist University of Shreveport, Louisiana
- Luther Rice Seminary

I attended Trinity. It took me three years to get one doctorate and another two years to get a second doctorate.

I had to turn in a 500 page paper for the first, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

I had to turn in a 250 page paper for the second, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

Then I had to be on campus for seminars and finally for graduation.

Therefore, I do not consider Trinity a "mill" of unethical sorts.

Rufus </font>[/QUOTE]Many people differentiate between “degree mills” and “diploma mills” although I cannot see the differentiation in the terms themselves since degree and diploma are used somewhat synonymously. The distinction must be in the evolution of usage. Some define a “degree mill” as a school that sells a degree with little or no work—it is the transparent selling of degrees. On the other hand, a “diploma mill” is a school that grants degrees below the accepted standard of work or achievement usually required for said degree. By any accepted definition of “degree mill,” Trinity is not a “degree mill.” It does require justifiable work, although it may be below the acceptable standard, for its degrees.

On the other hand, one may effectively argue that Trinity is a “diploma mill” in that its requirements are not as rigorous as other recognized seminaries offering a comparable degree. Would the degree work at Trinity qualify one for the same degree at Dallas, Westminster, or SWBTS? What is Trinity’s language requirement (i.e. Greek, Hebrew, etc.) for a doctorate? I know that Trinity’s precursor, Toledo Bible College, only required knowledge of how to use Strong’s to look up Greek and Hebrew definitions for a Ph.D. Seems a little lean to me. Usually, you can judge the rigor of a seminary program by looking at the language requirements. It’s rather difficult to teach Greek and Hebrew at a distance—it takes discipline on the student’s part. In sum, there are many well-meaning schools offering useful courses but they are guilty of academic inflation, not academic fraud. If they gave recognition equivalent to their work, Bible institute level, then there would be no criticism.

Furthermore, distance education schools tend to use the writing of papers in place of instruction. For the average student, this is a poor substitute. Also, quality control is missing. Most try to give an appearance of scholarship and rigor by imposing length requirements. Quality is not necessarily determined by length. So, a five hundred page paper is not impressive except from the drudgery aspect. Who judges the creativity, originality, new ideas, advancement of knowledge, etc.? This brings the quality into question when many, if not most, of the profs are homegrown. It is usually a self-justifying circle since the profs have their own degrees from the same place.

In these DE schools, much of so-called research is the compilation of inanities. It is valueless. We could go on about the intellectual quality, originality, adding to knowledge, writing (style, grammar, etc.), scholarship, ad nauseam. I like Ecc. 12:12-14. Res ipsa loquitur.

IMHO, it’s not about knowledge and wisdom but it is rather like the Pharisees who loved the chief seats at the feasts and wanted to be called Rabbi. Have you noticed the typical Baptist event? No longer is it Rabbi Levi introducing Rabbi Simeon but it is Dr. Wigglesmith introducing Dr. Snodgrass who lauds Dr. Butterworth and not one of them can write a legal prescription.

[ November 02, 2004, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: paidagogos ]

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by rufus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rev. G:
Do you believe "degree mills" are ethical? Degree mills being "schools" where little attention is paid to scholarship, and one can quickly pass the course work in order to attain a "professional degree."

Do you consider the following "real" schools or "degree mills"?

- Trinity College of the Bible of Newburgh, Indiana
- Andersonville Baptist Seminary of Camillia, Georgia
- Louisiana Baptist University of Shreveport, Louisiana
- Luther Rice Seminary

I attended Trinity. It took me three years to get one doctorate and another two years to get a second doctorate.

I had to turn in a 500 page paper for the first, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

I had to turn in a 250 page paper for the second, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

Then I had to be on campus for seminars and finally for graduation.

Therefore, I do not consider Trinity a "mill" of unethical sorts.

Rufus </font>[/QUOTE]Five years for two academic doctorates seems a little short. Did you study fulltime? My friend, O. T. Spence, required ten years of fulltime study for his doctorate at Foundations Bible College.

 

[AVL1984]

paid, I know of many who spent far less time in attendence at colleges who took far less than ten years to get multiple doctorates. It's not uncommon whether one attends the university or does extension studies.

 

[rufus]

paidagogos, thank you for your comments about degrees.

I'm satisfied with the earned degrees with my name on them. God has verified through many blessings that I did what He led me to do. That's all I need.

Rufus

 

[Benfranklin403]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I've heard only good about Trinity. The fact that they are attempting to gain regional accreditation speaks well.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

The fact that they do not have accreditation speaks volumes also.

 

[Benfranklin403]

Some comments of John Bear, found on the Internet, about diploma mills:

"One of the main reasons that fake schools continue to exist is that it is difficult to legally define exactly what is meant by the term "diploma mill" or "degree mill." Surely any school that will send you a Ph.D. by return mail on payment of $100, no questions asked, is a fraud. But what about a school that requires a five-page dissertation before awarding the Doctorate? How about 20 pages? 50? 100? 200? Who is to say? One man's degree mill is another man's alternative university. And nobody seems to want the government stepping in to evaluate doctoral dissertations before permitting schools to grant degrees. Would you want [insert the name of your least-favorite politician] grading your thesis?

Another large gray area is the one dealing with religious schools. Because constitutional safeguards in the United States guarantee separation of church and state, most states have been reluctant to pass any laws restricting the activities of churches -- including their right to grant degrees to all who make an appropriately large donation. In many states, religious schools are not regulated but are restricted to granting religious degrees. But in some, like Louisiana and Hawaii, if you established your own one-person church yesterday, you could start your university today and award a Ph.D. in nuclear physics tomorrow."

 

[Benfranklin403]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I attended Trinity. It took me three years to get one doctorate and another two years to get a second doctorate.

I had to turn in a 500 page paper for the first, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

I had to turn in a 250 page paper for the second, plus hundreds of pages of other work. I had to listen to dozens of hours of tapes.

Then I had to be on campus for seminars and finally for graduation.

Therefore, I do not consider Trinity a "mill" of unethical sorts.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

...............................................

Many and perhaps most traditionally accredited institutions require that the Ph.D. dissertation be of publishable quality. The faculty advisors are competent judges of that since they normally have extensive publication records. When I was in graduate school in a scientific field, it was the norm for graduate students to have several published papers before getting their Ph.D. Quite often the Ph.D. work was itself published. One big difference between this and some of these diploma mills is that diploma mills including these small bible institutions, seldom
publish anything in peer reviewed literature. If the quality is too low to be published, chances are that it is not much of a contribution to the store of knowledge and therefore is of questionable quality. Most likely it is a diploma mill.

 

[Benfranklin403]

For those who strive to lead others in the matter of ethical issues, the matter of ethics becomes or should become an extremely important issue. Often there seems to be some laxness on this point. One of the previous posters mentioned how he had submitted the same paper to two different institutions. Surely this is an ethical lapse. Some have defended Trinity on the grounds that it has applied to the North Central Association for accreditation. But in my opnion that means very little. Trinity could be a candidate 10 years from now with no progress. But it is easy enough to see that even submitting the application has good PR value, just as it has been used here. There is every reason to apply. There are numerous accredited institutions available. There is no shortage of them. There is no good reason to become involved with an unaccredited "university" unless of course you want to take shortcuts of a questionable nature.

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by Benfranklin403:
Many and perhaps most traditionally accredited institutions require that the Ph.D. dissertation be of publishable quality.

Yes, the dissertation/thesis must be of publishable quality. This does not, however, mean the research will always be published. Many theses and dissertations are of publishable quality, yet never published in any form--other than a final hard-bound copy to be shelved among its counterparts in a university/seminary library.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I believe that Christian colleges, universities and seminaries should still set the standard for academic excellence the way that Princeton, Harvard and Yale did in the United States, and Cambridge and Oxford did in England. Degree mills are a sham and they bring a reproach upon the very name of Christ.

Yes, there are many who desire to get an education in Biblical studies that for one reason or another are not able to go to schools like Princeton, Harvard and Yale, but there are many Bible schools and institutes for such people that award their students with certificates of accomplishment. Recently, however, many unscrupulous people have discovered a market where a generous profit can be had for very little investment.

Building, equipping, and staffing a real Bible College costs tens of millions of dollars, but a charlatan can buy a used computer and printer at a garage sale for $50, get himself a website, and instantly become Dr. Charlatan, President of Charlatan University. These things ought not to be so, and they would not be so if Christians had the integrity to boycott Charlatan University.

There is no shame in being proud of a certificate earned for completing a curriculum of correspondence courses; but there is a terrible shame in being proud of a doctoral degree from Charlatan University. If it is the will of God for you to earn a real degree, he will make it possible for you to earn one. But those who try to help out God and commit the sin of Abraham and Hagar are going to end up with a son like Ishmael instead of a son like Isaac.

Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life—and that plan does not include compromises in one’s ethics that bring shame to His name.