Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[Dr. Bob]

Major, thanks for your anecdotal support of Trinity and excluding it from "degree mills". I totally concur.

But don't beat your head against a stone wall trying to have others accept that opinion. Allow them to hold their opinions. We will find out "why" they hold that by and by.

These are "FELLOWSHIP" forums, not DEBATE.

 

[Major B]

Gentle admonishment accepted, Doc. Remember, I teach Advanced Placement Government and Politics, and rhetorical expression and debate are what I do all the time... Hard to stay out of that mode!

 

[Peter101]

As a hobby I have looked into the situation of diploma mills for some time. I have concluded that it is often difficult, at first glance, to distinguish a diploma mill from more legitimate institutions. The reason is that there seems to be a well populated continuum (sp?) with regard to quality, from the totally worthless to the very fine institutions such as Stanford, etc. I suppose that the motivation behind founding a school would be a good guide, but it seems that this is often difficult to accurately determine. I know of one school that had some of the external characteristics of good university. It was even founded by an M.D. who was a Harvard graduate. It had a few well qualified mentors helping their customers (students). But there were some other things that suggested it was a diploma mill. But it was not the usual diploma mill where you sent in some money and they gave a degree. They did have a program of study, at least on paper. The name of the "university" was Columbia Pacific University, in California. It was housed in one building near San Francisco. A couple of years ago, it was forced to close by the state of California. It has resurfaced under another, but similar name, in Wyoming. The laws are lax in Wyoming and apparently all they require is that whoever owns the school shall maintain an office there. According to the responsible official in Wyoming, the new school denied any connection with the defunct school in California, although the same people are involved.

As for as Trinity is concerned, it is entirely possible that a school could be a good one without accreditation, but when one is spending hard earned money, why take a chance? If a school has essentially no standard accreditation, the odds are good that there are good reasons for the lack of accreditation, especially if the school is decades old.

[ July 12, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Peter101 ]

 

[Peter101]

>>>>>Really slowly this time...

Trinity is entering candidate status for accreditation with its regional accrediting agency.

They have been working on it for a couple of years. <<<<<<<

I tend to agree with you that Trinity is not a diploma mill. Nevertheless, the things you mention above should be taken with a grain of salt, because I know of pure diploma mills who have said precisely the same thing. Trinity may well have top notch leadership now and they may sail right into regional accreditation. Still as I understand it, the school has existed for a couple of decades at least, and I think it is fair to say that something has been lacking in the past for them not to already have accreditation. I know little about the school except what I can see on the Internet. I don't think it is a diploma mill but from what I can see about the faculty, it is not a powerhouse either.

 

[Peter101]

Incidentally, diploma mills are at least a 200 million dollar per year business. A few years ago, the FBI was involved in cracking down on the worst of them in an operation called "dipscam". But now the FBI has more important things to do. If you work for a large organization with more than a few dozen people, chances are that there is at least one person in the organization with a degree that is not entirely legitimate. Sometimes, as in the case of health care, this can be dangerous to life and limb.

Do you remember the book, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus?". Its author has a "Ph.D." from Columbia Pacific University, which I mentioned in a previous post, as being forced to close by the State of California, for essentially being a diploma mill.

 

[Peter101]

Trinity again:

I notice that some of the faculty of Trinity Seminary obtained degrees by "Distance Learning" which essentially means that they studied remotely rather than on a campus. One of them has a Ph.D. from Andrew Jackson University, which apparently is a distance learning organization. All this is new and there is nothing intrinsic about it that prevents it from being a good way to study. Nevertheless, a good bit of caution is in order. Andrew Jackson University, whatever its quality, has some good hints about how to avoid diploma mills. These comments can be found at this link:

http://www.aju.edu/faqs_accreditation.htm

Personally, I would prefer studying in the traditional way rather than remotely, and I suspect that the quality is quite a bit lower from one of these distance learning organizations. Some of the best can be found on John Bear's web site. I know that he is concerned about diploma mills and I suspect that the 100 distance learning organizations that he recommends at least meet minimum standards. Stanford University is even on his list. Most or all of the ones mentioned in this thread are not on his list.

 

[Major B]

Actually, the choice of Trinity for my program (Biblical Counseling) was driven by some important facts.

1. They teach nouthetic counseling techniques as opposed to integrative techniques. I abhor integrating psychology into the church, and believe strongly in the Biblical Counseling movement's ideas. For instance, one other counseling program I looked at very seriously was located at a very solid, conservative, Baptist college, but when I got their textbook list, ALL of their counseling texts were written by secular psychologists. When I asked how they stood on Jay Adams, Wayne Mack, etc., and nouthetic counseling, the adminstrator I was talking to sort of sneered...

2. They offer distance education. Without going into details, that is simply the only thing available to me. I cannot displace 950 miles (the closest other nouthetic counseling school location) to attend school for three or four years.

3. I personally know some of the leadership, and while some of the minor faculty may have some of their degrees from questionable sources, the fellows I know are very solid. One dean I know is (M.Div Talbot, ThM Talbot, PhD Westminster).

 

[Jim1999]

In my experience, schools are as good as the student applying himself to studies.

On degree mills: they are as ethical as the applicant who will spend $50.00 for a piece of paper. The degree might impress someone on a bulletin board.

On distance learning: There have been great advances in distance learning techniques, and it makes it so much easier for one to learn. Again, it all depends on the student rather than the school.

Some students can sit any exam and do well gradewise, but they are useless when it comes to applying that knowledge.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Peter101]

>>>>In my experience, schools are as good as the student applying himself to studies.<<<<<


That is not true from my experience. It is far better to study under first class mentors than to study under those, for example, who have questionable degrees and no record of scholarly accomplishments. Of course the ability of the student is an important factor, but the ability and demonstrated accomplishments of the faculty are also very important. Using your line of reasoning, it would be just as good to abolish colleges and universities altogether, since the student can learn everything on his own. The quality of the faculty cannot guarantee the success of the student, but it is an important ingredient. To dismiss the quality of an institution and say that it does not matter makes no sense at all.

There are cases, in certain areas, where self-education has worked. The case of Abraham Lincoln comes to mind. But it should be noted that he sent his son to Harvard, and would probably have gone to a good university himself if circumstances had permitted it. I don't content that every must go to a famous university to be successful. But quality does matter, and many small colleges are of high quality and have adequate accreditation.

[ July 13, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Peter101 ]

 

[Jim1999]

Reading comprehension is a valuable asset. It enables one to understand what is written.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Craigbythesea]

The classroom experience itself is an integral part of a college education. In graduate studies, the classroom experience is absolutely essential. Very much of what I learned in graduate school was learned from other students. Other essential items for a college education are:

• A good library (100,000+ volumes for a Bible college, 250,000+ volumes for a Christian liberal arts college, 500,000+ volumes for a Christian university, 1,000,000+ volumes if graduate degree programs are offered)

• A real campus with trees, shrubs, flowers, and lawns. The trees, shrubs, and flowers help one maintain their sanity; the lawns are a necessity for small group interaction where a kick-back atmosphere is essential to some thought processes that are essential to a good education.

• Hallways and sidewalks where one can interact with the faculty face to face outside of the classroom

• A large and diverse faculty made up of brilliant men educated in fine universities where their academic pursuits were not limited, freedom of thought was strongly encouraged, and where there were generous opportunities for interaction with other brilliant people whose cultures, ideas, and theologies were both challenging and inspiring. For a good seminary education, these things are absolutely essential. One does not want to go to a seminary that teaches one what the Bible teaches, but a seminary that equips its students to study the Bible and learn for themselves what it teaches.

• Other nearby colleges and universities and coffeehouses, etc., where the students from several nearby colleges and universities mingle and ideas and beliefs are challenged

• Other nearby colleges and universities with which library materials are shared

Colleges and universities range from broken beer bottles to fine diamonds. Even a Ph.D. from a broken beer bottle is worth no more than the broken bottle. A Ph.D. from a fine university, however, is worth more than many fine diamonds.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Craig - I would agree. The interaction with students at the undergrad level is a HUGE part of education. Sports, music, dorm life, etc. are integral. I would NEVER recommend an external program for college level.

In grad work (MA/MDiv) the interaction with faculty is a HUGE part. Most students at this level are married and campus life a thing of the past. But iron sharpening iron with faculty. I would still HIGHLY recommend an on-campus experience at this level.

Where the UWW (university without walls) concept works best is in advanced/doctoral work. Even at campus-based programs, 90% of the work in done on a more individualized basis. So a UWW program (like Trinity, mentioned earlier) is not far different. The education result you get is from the work YOU do, not classroom, etc.

It is there, where most pastors are (with earned bachelor/masters from conventional education) that schools with credible external programs should find good success.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Do you believe "degree mills" are ethical?

No. They belittle and spit in the face of all those fine men and women whose bodies produced blood, sweat, and tears in the course of graduate and postgraduate studies.

 

[Craigbythesea]

No. They belittle and spit in the face of all those fine men and women whose bodies produced blood, sweat, and tears in the course of graduate and postgraduate studies.

Amen!

 

[mioque]

Normally only a fool or one who is both vain and lazy would use a degree mill.
In further news...

"A real campus with trees, shrubs, flowers, and lawns. "
"
I remember a shortage of trees, shrubs, flowers, and lawns on campus.

"The trees, shrubs, and flowers help one maintain their sanity"
"
That would explain a lot wouldn't it.

 

[kenlen]

I have noticed that some of you mention accredited schools with the associations aligned with the department of education. Don't get me wrong but what difference whether or not a school has accredition with one of those associations. I know of some good schools not accredited with any association yet they offer a good education. I know of one good school in Louisana that offers a good degree program for distance learning at a reasonable cost. And they choose not to be accredited with one of the regional associations yet they are fully accredited.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Major B:
My profs are reallly picky about format in papers--"Either Turabian OR APA, please," and that does not seem indicative of low standards!

I went to a secular university many years ago and they required us to follow Turabian in our papers. It has been my experience that the vast majority of seminaries are nothing more than an extended B.A. program. The masters and doctoral programs are to be aimed at research not just concrete knowledge liked in a B.A. program. When I went to seminary I was surprised at the level of religious education. In their curriculum class they did not develop curriculum but rather evaluated a curriculum against the denominational standard. In my B.A. program in a secular university we were required to develop a curriculum and evaluate it. In my undergraduate program we were required to do a senior project before we could graduate. It was much like a small thesis. The school was an undergraduate school with only a few masters programs.

However, I was fortunate in seminary to have had Dr. Lorin Cranford who taught some seminar courses where we had to present papers in class. It was great because we presented the paper and then anyone could ask questions. But he was given a hard time by the administration at SWBTS because his classes required a lot of work and there weren't many students who wanted to do that much work to learn.

I would look for a school that requires a lot of work. You will learn more and develop good study habits. You will find it more rewarding as well. The professor who is diligent and has been there knows what it takes to get you there. So he will make you work harder to get to where you need to be.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by kenlen:
I have noticed that some of you mention accredited schools with the associations aligned with the department of education. Don't get me wrong but what difference whether or not a school has accredition with one of those associations. I know of some good schools not accredited with any association yet they offer a good education. I know of one good school in Louisana that offers a good degree program for distance learning at a reasonable cost. And they choose not to be accredited with one of the regional associations yet they are fully accredited.

I can give you a very good example. One of my cousins went to a unaccredited college. It is a very good school. However she later married and started a job as a secretary at a local schol district. After being there awhile she decided she wanted to consider teaching so she inquired about getting a teaching crededntial. The credentialing office would not accpet any of her college credits toward a credential. So that leaves her still as a secretary and several thousand dollars less per year.

If an institution is accredited you can ask to see the report. That report will tell you as lot about how the faculty sees things and how the administration sees things. If there is an adversarial relationship that will be noticeable. The report includes the attitudes and academics in individual departments. When the accreditation committee comes in they will have required each department to evaluate themselves and the departments evaluate the administration. The administration evaluates themselves. When the committee comes on campus they ask questions of the students to evaluate what is being taught. Then when they are done a final report is drafted. It includes how well each department is doing against the state standards, the academic climate and morale among the faculty and administration.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
[snip]
If they have entire programs of study, hundreds of hours of work per class, thesis and dissertations, summer residencies - then they are "University Without Walls" external study programs.

[snip]

Dr. Bob, I respectfully disagree. Some of the religious diploma mills (some differentiate between low quality diploma mills and fraudulent degree mills) do require a quantity of work but the rigor is comparable to a Bible institute. It is not just the quantity of work but the quality as well. When the majority of the faculty have diploma mill degrees, then the work they require is usually of low expectations although massive in amount. Graduate study is not just more of the same from undergrad. Grad school is supposedly at a higher cognitive level. Some diploma mills, for example, require 20,000 to 30,000 papers for graduate work but the quality is variable. Some of the proprietary California schools of the 70’s & 80’s actually generated some quality theses and dissertations but there were a lot of duds as well. Of course, you can argue that there a whole lot of duds in the average regionally accredited program and I would heartily agree.

As an aside, I had a fellow with a Th.D. approach me for a faculty position recently. He was very obviously poorly educated and unknowledgeable. He had a diploma mill degree. He knew Bible knowledge at probably a Bible institute level. His knowledge of English grammar and composition, history, Greek or Hebrew, etc. was non-existent.

Dr. Cecil Johnson (graduate of Tabernacle Baptist Bible Institute in Virginia Beach, VA but boasting several mail-order variety doctorates—President of Christian Bible College in Rocky Mount, NC which boasts Jack Van Impe among its alumni) once offered me a doctorate in anything I could name if I would write his doctoral program in Biblical psychology (I know—it’s an oxymoron). What he wanted was a program that could have been copied straight out of Barnes & Noble College Outline series with a few Bible verses scattered hither and there. I demurred.

However, there are many excellent distance ed schools today. Of course, the University of London and UNISA (University of South Africa) have been doing this for over a century. A lot of the so-called distance ed schools in religious circles are sorry excuses though.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Craig - I would agree. The interaction with students at the undergrad level is a HUGE part of education. Sports, music, dorm life, etc. are integral. I would NEVER recommend an external program for college level.

[snip]

Dr. Bob, you need to watch those absolutes. NEVER? If you are forty years old, married, and supporting six kids, then sports, music, dorm life, etc. are awful superficial when you’re trying to get that degree.