paidagogos
Active Member
Oh? What school is it? LBU?
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Are Degree Mills Ethical?
- Thread starter Rev. G
- Start date
paidagogos
Active Member
Trinity (Newburgh, IN) has never been a degree mill in the real sense of the word (fraudulent, selling degrees, etc.). However, it may have been a diploma mill (standards lower than those of a degree-granting institution) when it was in Toledo, OH (Toledo Bible College). For example, you could get a doctorate in Bible without knowing more Greek or Hebrew than using Strong’s. They did have some pretty good Bible institute level courses but nothing merited a degree, much less a doctorate. They have been steadily working and improving their program. Although I would not call them rigorous, I would say they are credible. I do think they will get their regional accreditation but I believe they may have to include a short residency requirement for a doctorate. Central may let them get away with a couple of days or a week or so.
Residency requirements for doctorates have steadily shrunk to a minimum. Capella requires three weeks for their Ph.D. Jones International’s no residency doctorate is not accredited, I believe, even though their other programs are accredited.
paidagogos
Active Member
CHEA is NOT an accrediting agency.
paidagogos
Active Member
Since Trinity has a rigorous program, since its professors all have advanced degrees from fully-accredited schools, since it has long been accredited by British universities, and since it is an official candidate for accreditation with the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools, I think that eliminates Trinity from the list. </font>[/QUOTE]I would not call it rigorous. It is no more demanding than other distance ed programs, such as Liberty, or resident programs.
paidagogos
Active Member
Seems there's a little ethical problem about submitting the same paper at two institutions for grades or credit. Don't you think so?
paidagogos
Active Member
One of the marks of either a degree mill or diploma mill is that they have most faculty members with their graduate degrees from the school. Most LBU faculty have their degrees from LBU or Christian Baptist University (LBU’s precursor). There are a lot of other questionable degrees there too. It seems that profs with questionable credentials tend not to be too picky about awarding degrees. Perhaps they don’t want their own rags to be called into question.
(I know this description fits the BJU Bible and Seminary faculty but no one can question their quality or accuse them of being a degree mill. They have gone against the grain, employed their own graduates, maintained their quality, and remained unaccredited. However, it looks as if the accreditation issue is about to change. The sad thing is that they are going with a less than sterling quality accreditor, TRACS, instead of the impeachable Southern Association (SACS). Perhaps going with TRACS gave them some means of saving face of reversing a long held position. IMHO, a lot of pressure has come on BJU to become accredited and they saw the handwriting on the wall.)
paidagogos
Active Member
Regional accreditation I know but what in the world is "national accreditation?" I've studied correspondence degrees, external degrees, and distance education since the 1970's but I have never found a legitimate definition for "national accreditation" in the good ole USA. This is, however, a frequent moniker used by degree mills for bogus accreditation. (I personally like the accrediting association in Beebe, AK that accredited a school in an FBI sting operation using “The Little Golden Book of Fishes” for a marine science text.)
I earned my M.Div. at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, a top notch graduate school.
I also earned an M.A. in counseling through Liberty's School of Lifelong Learning.
I took several counseling courses at TEDS.
The quality of instruction from Liberty was definately at the graduate degree level. And the on campus practicums were excellent. I would highly recommend Liberty as an excellent option in distance learning. Liberty actually might be overcompensating by making its distance learning program more difficult than resident programs.
I also earned an M.A. in counseling through Liberty's School of Lifelong Learning.
I took several counseling courses at TEDS.
The quality of instruction from Liberty was definately at the graduate degree level. And the on campus practicums were excellent. I would highly recommend Liberty as an excellent option in distance learning. Liberty actually might be overcompensating by making its distance learning program more difficult than resident programs.
paidagogos
Active Member
Yeah? Is this ethical? I have to ask what are your standards for ethical behavior?
paidagogos
Active Member
The DoE website states:
”The United States has no Federal Ministry of Education or other centralized authority exercising single national control over postsecondary educational institutions in this country. The States assume varying degrees of control over education, but, in general, institutions of higher education are permitted to operate with considerable independence and autonomy. As a consequence, American educational institutions can vary widely in the character and quality of their programs.
In order to insure a basic level of quality, the practice of accreditation arose in the United States as a means of conducting non-governmental, peer evaluation of educational institutions and programs. Private educational associations of regional or national scope have adopted criteria reflecting the qualities of a sound educational program and have developed procedures for evaluating institutions or programs to determine whether or not they are operating at basic levels of quality.”
The first sentence of the above quote kills your argument. “National accreditation” is by a centralized ministry of education. This is a technical term with a defined meaning and application, not just a descriptive phrase produced by combining national and accreditation. In the US, national accreditation is no higher accreditation than regional accreditation. The scope of accreditation has more to do with kind and type than level. The breadth of geographic bounds has absolutely nothing to do with the level or significance. There are many specialized accreditors such as the AMA, ABA, ACS, etc.
I don’t know what you mean by “national accreditation” but in the sense used by those working in higher ed and accreditation, there is no “national accreditation” in the USA. It is true that some accreditors (e.g. TRACS, DETC, etc.) serve a clientele throughout the United States but even the so-called regional accrediting associations accredit institutions outside their regions. (It seems that distance education providers prefer the North Central Association that is friendlier (more lenient?) toward distance education institutions.) Distance education has changed the way we think about accreditation but there is still no “national accreditation” in the strict sense of the term. However, degree mill operators use the natural confusion of the uninitiated to suck in the gullible. In other words, just because accreditation operates across regional geographic boundaries does not mean that it is “national accreditation” in the United States. In other countries, there is real “national accreditation.” However, there is a real and genuine different between nationally recognized accreditation and “national accreditation” in the US.
paidagogos
Active Member
Ha! The so-called "national level accrediting bodies" (I assume you are referring to TRACS and DETC, etc.) are generally less favorably regarded than the regional associations.
PG: "The first sentence of the above quote kills your argument. “National accreditation” is by a centralized ministry of education. This is a technical term with a defined meaning and application, not just a descriptive phrase produced by combining national and accreditation.”
Dave: You seem to have assumed that I am arguing for something here as a partisan. The DoE site covers accrediting bodies such as TRACS or DETC, which I never claimed had superior accreditation to regional bodies. I don’t know why you’re so hostile.
TRACS, DETC, and AALE are DoE approved and generally referred to as “national accreditors”, as they accredit schools throughout all six regions. Even the DoE on their website says, “The various commissions of the regional accrediting associations, for example, perform institutional accreditation, as do many national accrediting agencies.”
PG: “Ha! The so-called "national level accrediting bodies" (I assume you are referring to TRACS and DETC, etc.) are generally less favorably regarded than the regional associations.”
Dave: That is generally true, but I don’t recall claiming otherwise. I believe there are excellent schools that are regionally accredited, TRACS accredited (Northwest Baptist Seminary), and even unaccredited (Central Baptist Theological Seminary).
Dave: You seem to have assumed that I am arguing for something here as a partisan. The DoE site covers accrediting bodies such as TRACS or DETC, which I never claimed had superior accreditation to regional bodies. I don’t know why you’re so hostile.
TRACS, DETC, and AALE are DoE approved and generally referred to as “national accreditors”, as they accredit schools throughout all six regions. Even the DoE on their website says, “The various commissions of the regional accrediting associations, for example, perform institutional accreditation, as do many national accrediting agencies.”
PG: “Ha! The so-called "national level accrediting bodies" (I assume you are referring to TRACS and DETC, etc.) are generally less favorably regarded than the regional associations.”
Dave: That is generally true, but I don’t recall claiming otherwise. I believe there are excellent schools that are regionally accredited, TRACS accredited (Northwest Baptist Seminary), and even unaccredited (Central Baptist Theological Seminary).
Not really weird. LOCAL/REGIONAL is better than FEDERAL in most areas. That is American thinking!
The requirements and the result of North Central accrediting is vastly more stringent and prestigious than TRACS.
Most ifb seminaries do not have ANY accredition. They simply produce a product and churches accept such as quality or not.
The North Central US has the highest standards of education across the nation. The deep South and the areas of the hispanic invasion (south Texas, et al) have the lowest.
The requirements and the result of North Central accrediting is vastly more stringent and prestigious than TRACS.
Most ifb seminaries do not have ANY accredition. They simply produce a product and churches accept such as quality or not.
The North Central US has the highest standards of education across the nation. The deep South and the areas of the hispanic invasion (south Texas, et al) have the lowest.
GeneMBridges
New Member
I would point out that some states have their own accreditation standards beyond those of the accrediting agencies themselves. NC, while a Southern state, has extremely stringent accreditation standards for private institutions. In order for an institution to, for example, offer an Associate Degree of any kind, starting, I believe last year (Or was it this year, they all run together, you know), all the staff members now have to have a minimum Master's Degree if they teach in a private institution. (Public schools, irony of ironies, don't have such a stringent standard). Thereafter, of course, there are faculty requirements for Doctoral level degrees for institutions offering Bachelor degrees and above. This is just for the state requirements, not just the regional agencies.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Bob, you do have a good sense of humor!
For those who may not be familiar with Dr. Bob's strange sense of humor, I should probably post that almost all of the best schools in the United States are located on the northern part of the east coast and the southern part of the west coast. A notable exception, of course would be the University of Chicago, one of our country’s very finest schools with 2,160 undergraduate students and 9,000 graduate, professional, and other students. http://www-news.uchicago.edu/resources/alumni/index.html
