D28guy said:
DHK,
I'm afraid it does. Forcefully.
From Hebrews 12....
Here is an excellant treatment of the wonderfull truth of the "universal" nature of Gods church here on earth. As you will see, it is FLOODED with scripture...
Hebrews 12:22-24 says nothing whatsoever of a universal church
on earth. It indeed speaks of a universal church (or assembly), the only place where all believers can be assembled and that is in heaven. But what does that have to do with churches down here? It is impossible for a universal assembly in heaven to assemble on earth.
Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and
church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
--No universal church on earth here, and agreed no local church either. It is speaking of a heavenly scene.
As you can see..(I hope)..the scriptures THUNDER home the truth of the "universal" aspect of Gods church...while still affirming the "local" aspect of His gathered assemblies.
Scripture taken out of context does not "thunder home the truth of the universal aspect of a so-called non-existent universal church. There exists no such animal in the Bible.
The church *can* mean that, in a secondary sense, and sometimes it does.
Do you also ascribe to the ideology that "If the KJV was good enough for Paul then it is good enough for me." That is the logic that you are demonstrating here.
Ekklesia had one meaning--assembly, congregation. It did not take on the other English meanings of church. You can't force an English meaniing of "church" into a Greek word.
The word "ekklesia" did not mean church building, as we often use it: "I am going to church." There were no buildings built exclusively for the worship until 250 years after the disciples. The word isn't found in the Bible. Ekklesia does not take on the same meanings as our word does. It simply means "assembly."
I will give you an example:
Acts 19:39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful
assembly.
Acts 19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the
assembly. (or church??)
Here was more of political gathering that assembled in a theatre with the purpose of running Paul out of their town. They were angy at him for the people were turning to Christ and away from the idols that silversmiths were crafting, and those men were therefore losing money. You know the story. But here the word assembly is the same word for church. It is consistently translated church. If the KJV translators had been consistent throughout the NT they would have translated it assembly all 121 occurences not just 118 times that it occured.
As is evident in this post, the scriptures STRONGLY disagree with your view.
Scriptures taken out of context don't disagree with me.
And much of what is above...PROVING the truth of the universal church...comes from Pauls epistles.
You are sadly mistaken. Let me repeat the statement again:
"All of Paul's Epistles were either written to local churches or to pastors of local churches."
--In Paul's "Pastoral Epistles" why would he be writing about a universal church when they are written to give specific instructions to pastors in governing and taking care of local churches.
--In his other epistles, like 1Corinthians, Paul addresses specific problems even mentioning people by name. That doesn't sound like a universal church. There is not one letter that he writes where he doesn't mention some individual by name. How can you say they are teaching about some kind of universal church? They are not. They were very intensely personal letters to churches, most of which he had started.
That is *one* of Gods ways of blessing His people. He has an innumerable amount of ways to bless His people.
I don't doubt that. But his primary blessing comes through the local church, one of the few institutions that has been directly ordained of God.
Since the scriptures teach that there is...see above...I am in disagreement with you. I desire to be on Gods side of things.
You have yet to show from Scripture that there is a universal church. What you have done is taken some verses and posted them thinking they speak of a universal church, when they don't. You haven't done anything to demonstrate the universality of "the church" There is no such thing.
I ask you again:
How can there exist an "unassembled assembly?
How does this unassembled assembly carry out the Lord's Table, and when and where, and how often do they do it?
Have they decided whether to use wine or grape juice?
Where does this unassembled meet?
Who takes up the offering? Who are the deacons?
Who does the preaching?
How is the Great Commission carried out by this unassembled assembly.
Such a monster does not exist, yea, cannot exist in the NT. It is not Biblical at all. It is a man-made doctrine.
True. That doesnt disturb my point in the least.
True. That has nothing to do with Gods "universal" church. Both aspects...universal and local...are true.
Just as the "universal" aspect of the Church is real. The scriptures do not lie, DHK. Both aspects of the church are true. The material above, proving the universal aspect of Gods church, is FLOODED with scripture.
God bless,
Mike
A universal church is not real; it is imaginary. I have demonstrated that with the questions that I have just asked you. The Scriptures do not lie; they do not teach a universal church, and you have done nothing to show that they do. Your material above did not flood but were drowned and buried under the evidence that there is no universal church.
