Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Is that what I said? No. I said these are the same old attacks that are put against modern translations that are not founded in reality but just a hatred of anything that is not the TR and KJV.
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Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions?
- Thread starter Hobie
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Hobie
Well-Known Member
Here is more on the Gnosticism in these versions from the Dean Burgon site:
"Gnosticism, in all of its varieties, was the most influential heresy faced by the early Church. Not only did the Gnostic corrupt many readings found in the New Testament, but offered their own writings as inspired scriptures, such as the The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Peter, The Gospel of Philip, The Gospel of Judas, The Gospel of the Ebionites, The Gospel of The Twelve, The Gospel According To The Hebrews (also called The Gospel According To Matthew, not to be confused with the real Gospel of Matthew), The Gospel According to the Egyptians, The Gospel of Mary (Magdalene), The Acts of Andrew, The Acts of Peter, The Acts of John, etc.
Gnosticism had a variety of forms and sects, which broadened its base and growth. Historian Will Durant calls Gnosticism "the quest of godlike knowledge (gnosis) through mystic means" (The Story Of Civilization Vol. III, p. 604). Durant is correct. Gnosticism is thinly veiled Pantheism. Pantheism is the doctrine that identifies God with and in the whole universe, every particle, tree, table, animal, and person being are part of GOD. Or, to explain it in a very basic way, the Greek word pan = all. The Greek word theos = God). Therefore it literally means "God is All" and "All is God".
The Gnostics taught that the physical (material) is evil and the spiritual (non-material) is good. Thus, a good god (spiritual) could not have created a physical world, because good can not create evil (that is the spiritual would not create the physical). So the Gnostic god created a being (or a line of beings called aeons) removing himself from direct creation. One of these aeons, or gods, created the world. The so-called Christian Gnostics believed that Jesus was one of these aeons who created the world. Some Gnostic taught that Jesus did not have a physical body. When he walked on the earth, he left not footprints because he never really touched the earth (he being spiritual and the world physical). Others taught that only our spiritual bodies were important, so the physical body could engage in whatever acts they desired because only the spiritual body would be saved. Still other Gnostics taught that the physical body was so evil that it must be denied in order for the spiritual body to gain salvation, thus shunning marriage and certain foods..
The influence of Gnosticism can be seen in some of the heresies of today. For example, many of the teachings stated above are found, in revised form, in the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. To the Jehovah's Witness, Jesus is a created god, not God manifest in the flesh. It is no wonder that the Watchtower's New World Translation changes "God was manifest in the flesh" in 1 and replaces it with "He was made manifest in flesh." In the TR Greek which underlies our King James Bible reads it reads yeov (theos) (God) <2316> efanerwyh (Ephanerothe) (was manifested/revealed) <5319> (5681) en (in) <1722> sarki (sarki) (the flesh) <4561>. However, the Greek text which underlines the NWT has made a change, so it is natural for the Jehovah Witnesses to choose the reading which reflects their false doctrine. What is interesting is that the NIV, NASB, ESV, and perhaps others says "He" instead of "God," thus following part of the Gnostic corruption. Why, because the NWT, NASB, NIV and, ESV have as their base the corrupt Alexandrian text."
"Christian" Gnosticisms Corruptions
"Gnosticism, in all of its varieties, was the most influential heresy faced by the early Church. Not only did the Gnostic corrupt many readings found in the New Testament, but offered their own writings as inspired scriptures, such as the The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Peter, The Gospel of Philip, The Gospel of Judas, The Gospel of the Ebionites, The Gospel of The Twelve, The Gospel According To The Hebrews (also called The Gospel According To Matthew, not to be confused with the real Gospel of Matthew), The Gospel According to the Egyptians, The Gospel of Mary (Magdalene), The Acts of Andrew, The Acts of Peter, The Acts of John, etc.
Gnosticism had a variety of forms and sects, which broadened its base and growth. Historian Will Durant calls Gnosticism "the quest of godlike knowledge (gnosis) through mystic means" (The Story Of Civilization Vol. III, p. 604). Durant is correct. Gnosticism is thinly veiled Pantheism. Pantheism is the doctrine that identifies God with and in the whole universe, every particle, tree, table, animal, and person being are part of GOD. Or, to explain it in a very basic way, the Greek word pan = all. The Greek word theos = God). Therefore it literally means "God is All" and "All is God".
The Gnostics taught that the physical (material) is evil and the spiritual (non-material) is good. Thus, a good god (spiritual) could not have created a physical world, because good can not create evil (that is the spiritual would not create the physical). So the Gnostic god created a being (or a line of beings called aeons) removing himself from direct creation. One of these aeons, or gods, created the world. The so-called Christian Gnostics believed that Jesus was one of these aeons who created the world. Some Gnostic taught that Jesus did not have a physical body. When he walked on the earth, he left not footprints because he never really touched the earth (he being spiritual and the world physical). Others taught that only our spiritual bodies were important, so the physical body could engage in whatever acts they desired because only the spiritual body would be saved. Still other Gnostics taught that the physical body was so evil that it must be denied in order for the spiritual body to gain salvation, thus shunning marriage and certain foods..
The influence of Gnosticism can be seen in some of the heresies of today. For example, many of the teachings stated above are found, in revised form, in the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. To the Jehovah's Witness, Jesus is a created god, not God manifest in the flesh. It is no wonder that the Watchtower's New World Translation changes "God was manifest in the flesh" in 1 and replaces it with "He was made manifest in flesh." In the TR Greek which underlies our King James Bible reads it reads yeov (theos) (God) <2316> efanerwyh (Ephanerothe) (was manifested/revealed) <5319> (5681) en (in) <1722> sarki (sarki) (the flesh) <4561>. However, the Greek text which underlines the NWT has made a change, so it is natural for the Jehovah Witnesses to choose the reading which reflects their false doctrine. What is interesting is that the NIV, NASB, ESV, and perhaps others says "He" instead of "God," thus following part of the Gnostic corruption. Why, because the NWT, NASB, NIV and, ESV have as their base the corrupt Alexandrian text."
"Christian" Gnosticisms Corruptions
Hobie
Well-Known Member
No, any version which is not from the affected Alexandrian manuscripts are ok, take a look at the Geneva Bible, Tyndale Bible, Wycliffe Bible and others, its just those with the corrupted text.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And you actually have to prove those texts are corrupt. You need to learn a little about textual criticism you really have no idea what you are talking about.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
So you say, but history shows different. And all you have to do is look at the changes and you see how they take out as much as they can the divinity of Christ, and bring in changes that weaken or take away doctrines which they disagreed with and lean toward the Gnosticism from the Alexandrian Manuscripts.....The Westcott and Hort Only Controversy
Bible Version Comparison
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
None of which is actually true.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
You cannot speak for anyone other than your own opinion, each person must individually look to see for themselves and decide.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
It's not an opinion.
last time I checked, both the Nas and Niv call Jesus God and Lord!
Again, where did the nas/Niv/esv all called Jesus a god, not the Lord and God? Where did they deny his bodily resurrection?
believe that he is in Sda, so he follows a false prophetess, and the Sda mothered the KJVO itself!
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Too many knew the text so they could not go the full measure they wanted. But scripture tells us to open our eyes and our ears, we must look below the surface and each one decide for themselves...
The New International Version (NIV) weakens doctrines directly related to Jesus. For example, in Luke 9:56 and Matt 18:11, the NIV leaves out the entire sentence which declares Christ's purpose in coming to earth.
Ephesians 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 3:9 (NIV)
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Here we see Christ's role as Creator is diminished in where the NIV neglects to specify that God created all things "by Jesus Christ." It just goes on and on with the changes to cloud what ever relates to the divinity, His place as the Creator, even His virgin birth as we see.
Luke 2:33 (KJV)
33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luke 2:33 (NIV)
33 The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him.
We have to open our eyes and ears and understand what is there..
Mark 8:18
Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
And the Nas erred where now then?
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Nestle-Aland is based on the Westcott-Hort text..."Nestle, according to Aland-Aland Text des Neuen Testaments, based the text of his first two editions on Westcott-Hort and Tischendorf's eighth edition (Weymouth being the decider in case of a difference), and from the third edition on Westcott-Hort, Tischendorf, and Bernhard Weiss (and this was done consistently only from the 13th edition of 1927). I have no reason to doubt the Alands' report on the history of the Nestle-Aland edition, and therefore it is just as wrong to say that the old Nestle-Aland text was that of Tischendorf, or Weiss, than to say it was that of Westcott-Hort."Evangelical Textual Criticism: Was the old Nestle-Aland text basically Westcott-Hort?
where were was the nas wrong on doctrines then?
And the Kjv used Eramus text, and even brought over the Vulgate in places, and since there are several different TR texts, which is the right one, and which kjv is the right one?
Hobie
Well-Known Member
As they say in the islands, ..same dog puppy. They all are based on the corrupted Alexandrian manuscripts as they are based on the version of Westcott and Hort.
So which Bible translation correct, as per you then?
Hobie
Well-Known Member
The proof is in the pudding...take a look and you will find it is missing verses, look up this one...
Acts 8:37 King James Version (KJV)
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
This basically shows it is based on Hort and Westcott.
So again, which bible translation is correct per you then?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And here is the thing, how do you know the TR based texts did not ADD those words in? You say, as if authoritative, that it was absolutely in the original even though the manuscripts used for the TR are centuries newer than the critical texts. So how do you know definitively those are the right renderings?
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