Are Freewill and Predestination Compatable?

[th1bill]

I see free will and predestination as a multidimensional issue that we can't comprehend with our limited dimensional minds.

They resemble two parallel lines that, by their very nature, cannot intersect if they are to stay parallel. This holds true in a two-dimensional context. However, in a three-dimensional space, there are instances where two parallel lines can intersect while still being parallel.

Since God's understanding surpasses ours, everything aligns in His perspective, even if it doesn't quite make sense to us.

I guess you read the OP but it seems not. I agree and I disagree. He has created for us to dwell in. For Him to have created this He was located elsewhere. Now to believe the recorded sayings/thoughts of such a being who has been repeatedly proven correct for some 6,000 years seems to make good sense.

YHWH spells it out in His record of events that he knows the beginning from the end of our time on Earth. Elohim has recorded for us that He wrote the names of the saved in His Book of Life before we were born. That is Predestination!

In the same manuscript, the Bible, He records that He is not some cosmic bully forcing some to live in Heaven while, a guess, 97% wait for Judgement in Hell before spending Eternity, alone, in darkness in the Lake of Fire.

With our Elohime the two lines, predestination and free-will, crossed before He created Adam. Does Elohime explain this in detail anywhere? I must admit He did not but why would He? For salvation He requires Faith. Not reams of critical data, just simple faith.

 

[th1bill]

Indeed, yet there are different views of many scriptures per denomination.

Never implied or said there was not more than the material matters of this universe.

Paul was taken to the third heaven - The Book of Enoch speaks of many different heavens - the Lost Books of the Bible/The Forgotten Books of Eden speaks of 12 different heavens.

Man can only see or go so far as God intended

There are no lost books of the Bible. The books you mention did not meet the Cannon because they disagree with known scripture. It is a lie loved by the Devil that they were lost.

 

[Mike B]

YHWH spells it out in His record of events that he knows the beginning from the end of our time on Earth. Elohim has recorded for us that He wrote the names of the saved in His Book of Life before we were born. That is Predestination!

Not choosing a side here, but do have disagreement with this statement.

In God's Omniscience, He can see time, both ways, and by looking ahead He can see who chooses Christ,
and who doesn't, and He writes down the names of the saved in the Book of Life. This does not mean
He predestinated those souls for salvation, but yes, He does know who will follow the Lord Jesus Christ
and be saved.

If a person could look ahead two hours, they could see who wins the Super Bowl. They would know
who wins before the game ever started; but they did absolutely nothing to help the winning team.

Foreknowledge does not equate to election or predestination.

That said, the other side of the coin is Eph. 1:4-5.

 

[Kai]

I guess you read the OP but it seems not. I agree and I disagree.

I have, brother. While I know that not everyone may agree my perspective, I believe that it’s wiser to accept these matters as a mystery rather than to diminish God’s sovereignty at the expense of man’s free will. I’ve shared several posts in this thread trying my best to provide a balanced view.

With our Elohime the two lines, predestination and free-will, crossed before He created Adam. Does Elohime explain this in detail anywhere? I must admit He did not but why would He? For salvation He requires Faith. Not reams of critical data, just simple faith.

The analogy of the two lines was intended as a philosophical exploration of how predestination and free will can coexist, rather than indicating two separate entities. I agree that that is needed is faith, and there's no need to make things more complicated than that.

 

[Mike B]

...................................... and there's no need to make things more complicated than that.

AMEN!

 

[searchingtruths]

There are no lost books of the Bible. The books you mention did not meet the Cannon because they disagree with known scripture. It is a lie loved by the Devil that they were lost.

I simply gave the title of the Lost Books of the Bible (combined )with the Forgotten books of Eden _ even said it was a good read _ it too was printed before the founding of the church and the turn of the new century around 3 BC to AD 1------ see the title


- **nowhere did I say it was Canon**

AI Overview

The original writings collected in The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden were written between roughly the 3rd century BC and the 2nd century AD (spanning from the Hellenistic/Late Second Temple period into the early Christian era).

No where did I say any was Canon and I actually said they were not accepted _ they were not canon - or I guess you didn't read that.

And apparently you never read the Apocrypha - the books of Enoch - the omitted books from the Dead Sea Scrolls - or the above pictured book they do not disagree with scripture.

The Gospel of Peter which is not a book but a scroll and is kept in a museum which I pointed out has a few differences concerning the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[th1bill]

Not choosing a side here, but do have disagreement with this statement.

In God's Omniscience, He can see time, both ways, and by looking ahead He can see who chooses Christ,
and who doesn't, and He writes down the names of the saved in the Book of Life. This does not mean
He predestinated those souls for salvation, but yes, He does know who will follow the Lord Jesus Christ
and be saved.

If a person could look ahead two hours, they could see who wins the Super Bowl. They would know
who wins before the game ever started; but they did absolutely nothing to help the winning team.

Foreknowledge does not equate to election or predestination.

That said, the other side of the coin is Eph. 1:4-5.

Different opinions of the mechanics and both of us can be wrong.

 

[th1bill]

I have, brother. While I know that not everyone may agree my perspective, I believe that it’s wiser to accept these matters as a mystery rather than to diminish God’s sovereignty at the expense of man’s free will. I’ve shared several posts in this thread trying my best to provide a balanced view.



The analogy of the two lines was intended as a philosophical exploration of how predestination and free will can coexist, rather than indicating two separate entities. I agree that that is needed is faith, and there's no need to make things more complicated than that.

Being human I am prone to err.

 

[th1bill]

I simply gave the title of the Lost Books of the Bible (combined )with the Forgotten books of Eden _ even said it was a good read _ it too was printed before the founding of the church and the turn of the new century around 3 BC to AD 1------ see the title
View attachment 14706

- **nowhere did I say it was Canon**

AI Overview

The original writings collected in The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden were written between roughly the 3rd century BC and the 2nd century AD (spanning from the Hellenistic/Late Second Temple period into the early Christian era).

No where did I say any was Canon and I actually said they were not accepted _ they were not canon - or I guess you didn't read that.

And apparently you never read the Apocrypha - the books of Enoch - the omitted books from the Dead Sea Scrolls - or the above pictured book they do not disagree with scripture.

The Gospel of Peter which is not a book but a scroll and is kept in a museum which I pointed out has a few differences concerning the death and resurrection of Christ.

The AI relies on the programmer and the programmer is a man prone to err. And the title is a brain teaser, not the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Getting back to the topic at hand, how exactly do you define free will?

Free will: is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

 

[Van]

Interesting topic, but several claims above cannot be substantiated.

1) Yes, God created our Universe, including the reality of time. But that does not put God "outside our timeline." He can interact consistent with our timeline.

2) God "declares" the end from the beginning. No verse says He "knows every detail" from the present to the end of time.

But returning to the topic, no, predestination of some aspects of the future does not invalidate our capacity to choose life rather than death, thus altering the outcome of our lives. If God had predestined that outcome, then we would not have had a choice. But scripture says we have that choice. Opponents of the actual opportunity of salvation for the lost, redefine "choice" to mean our choice of only one outcome, which makes scripture to no effect.

 

[Van]

1) The doctrine of election for salvation is explained in the Bible.

2) Lost individuals are chosen by (1) the sanctification (being set apart into Christ) by the Spirit, and (2) on the basis of credited faith in the truth. When does this occur, before creation or after we exist as individuals? Answer: After! For once we were not a people chosen for God's own possession. Once we had not received mercy. Election only becomes a mystery when these explicit scriptures are ignored.

3) Yes, we must try and eliminate viewpoints unsupported from scripture, that arise instead by reading possibilities into vague phrases.

4) Take "God chose us in Him." Ephesians 1:4. Many believe this obscure phrase means God chose us as individuals before creation, but offer endless views of what "in Him" means. Did God choose us as foreseen individuals with or without faith and set us apart in Christ's spiritual body? Nope! No one was set apart in Christ's spiritual body before Christ died on the cross. No one ascended to Heaven where Christ resided. On the other hand, God did choose Logos to be His Redeemer before creation, for He was know as the Lamb of God before creation. And when you choose a Redeemer, you in effect also choose those to be redeemed. Not individually, as they cannot be chosen before they once were not chosen individuals, but they can be chosen corporately, as the target group of God's redemption plan, believers whose faith God might credit, provided He determines to credit that faith when formulated.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Free will: is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

However, when we discuss free will in theological circles, it has to do with the ability, or rather inability, to make choices that are in direct opposition to one’s nature. Obviously, ppl make choices every day, but that is not what we’re really discussing here. Rather, whether one has an ability to choose something diametrically opposed to their nature.

Free will is the capacity of humans to make choices and control their actions independently of outside constraints, prior events, or divine intervention. It is the foundation for personal agency, moral responsibility, and legal accountability.

This would negate God drawing someone, as that would be an outside influence. If a will is truly free, then any influence, whether it be a good or bad influence, would have no effect on that will which is free.

 

[Silverhair]

However, when we discuss free will in theological circles, it has to do with the ability, or rather inability, to make choices that are in direct opposition to one’s nature. Obviously, ppl make choices every day, but that is not what we’re really discussing here. Rather, whether one has an ability to choose something diametrically opposed to their nature.

Free will is the capacity of humans to make choices and control their actions independently of outside constraints, prior events, or divine intervention. It is the foundation for personal agency, moral responsibility, and legal accountability.

This would negate God drawing someone, as that would be an outside influence. If a will is truly free, then any influence, whether it be a good or bad influence, would have no effect on that will which is free.

You do have a rather odd understanding of what free will is.

What did you find wrong with the one I gave you?

Free will: is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors.
It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

Free will does not negate the drawing of God as you suggest. It is your Calvinism that makes that an issue as you see God's drawing as Irresistible which is not biblical.

Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, culpability, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.
It is also connected with the concepts of advice, persuasion, deliberation, and prohibition.
Traditionally, only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving credit or blame.

Here are just a few verses from the OT and NT that show free will

Jos_24:15 "But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve ...

Jer_29:13 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart..."

Isa_55:6 "Seek the Lord while he may be found

Joh_7:17 "If anyone chooses to do God's will ..."

Heb_11:6 "... anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Act_17:27 "For God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him ..."

I know you will reject all these verse or say they do not mean what they say as they do not fit your Calvinist theology. You can either trust the word of God or the word of man but you have to choose which.

 

[th1bill]

However, when we discuss free will in theological circles, it has to do with the ability, or rather inability, to make choices that are in direct opposition to one’s nature. Obviously, ppl make choices every day, but that is not what we’re really discussing here. Rather, whether one has an ability to choose something diametrically opposed to their nature.

Free will is the capacity of humans to make choices and control their actions independently of outside constraints, prior events, or divine intervention. It is the foundation for personal agency, moral responsibility, and legal accountability.

This would negate God drawing someone, as that would be an outside influence. If a will is truly free, then any influence, whether it be a good or bad influence, would have no effect on that will which is free.

And yet we exercise three-wll everyday influenced nonetheless by outside influences over which we have zero control. Yes I eard/felt God's call and 23 years later I turned to him.

 

[Ben1445]

However, when we discuss free will in theological circles, it has to do with the ability, or rather inability, to make choices that are in direct opposition to one’s nature. Obviously, ppl make choices every day, but that is not what we’re really discussing here. Rather, whether one has an ability to choose something diametrically opposed to their nature.

Free will is the capacity of humans to make choices and control their actions independently of outside constraints, prior events, or divine intervention. It is the foundation for personal agency, moral responsibility, and legal accountability.

This would negate God drawing someone, as that would be an outside influence. If a will is truly free, then any influence, whether it be a good or bad influence, would have no effect on that will which is free.

Man is made in the image of God. It is not like expecting a rabbit to communicate with a flea. The two are not alike each other. God has fashioned man in His own likeness. The first means of communication between God and man is sourced from the very nature of man as God created him. He has the God given ability to think and communicate. Man does this on a level that God declares is above (or should be) that of brute beasts.

 

[Ben1445]

Man is made in the image of God. It is not like expecting a rabbit to communicate with a flea. The two are not alike each other. God has fashioned man in His own likeness. The first means of communication between God and man is sourced from the very nature of man as God created him. He has the God given ability to think and communicate. Man does this on a level that God declares is above (or should be) that of brute beasts.

Add to this, God reveals Himself to mankind in Creation, by His Son Jesus Christ, and His Word.
Now we have a group of people who want to turn the call of God to men into some kind of hidden mystical message, when the NT is showing or revealing mysteries and not concealing them. It shows all men the Saviour. It is not hidden. It is revealed.

 

[searchingtruths]

The AI relies on the programmer and the programmer is a man prone to err. And the title is a brain teaser, not the truth.

Who translated the scripture who decided what books to keep and what books to deny if not MEN _ as you say man is prone to error...... Yet the church has accepted their decisions for over a thousand years.

But then most people couldn't read and definitely couldn't own a Bible, not even touch it, until the last couple of centuries.

All The original Scriptures, the original words were written by the Hebrew / Israelites /Jewish people. Why discriminate on certain books because it didn't add up to what a different culture English / Romans / Greeks decided what Hebrew writings to keep and what to ignore. And the sad thing is we all serve the same God / it's all about the same God - all the teachings come from his chosen people that he gave his messages to and that includes what we call Christianity and some is rejected because it isn't considered Canon from the Old Testament......

Another sad thing is there are no known original Scriptures of the New Testament only copies. We only have the word of MEN who wrote what books are Cannon concerning the New Testament and they were translated Greek writings - was not the language of the Jews before the over throw and destruction of Israel / Jerusalem by the Romans mainly Aramaic? .........There is a warning in Revelation concerning the taking from or adding to the writings of the book I wonder why God put that warning there?

After all the MEN who first translated and wrote what we now call the Bible wanted far to much to separate from the Jewish culture and their teachings as far back as the second century _ and DiD.

You view it as a brain teaser - fine

Goodby