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Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not so. I just showed scripture that says Jesus descended into the lower parts of the Earth.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

The lower parts of the earth is the ground. It's not hell since hell is not located on the earth. Jesus first descended to earth, then returned to heaven.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The word here for "hell" is the word for "grave". "Hell" is a wrong interpretation. Jesus' soul did not stay in the grave nor did his body see corruption.

Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Last I read, Jesus' body was in the earth for 3 days. It never says His soul was there too.

There you go, three verses that say Jesus descended into the lower parts or heart of the earth. And Peter named this place as Hell.

Nope - not at all.

But where did Jesus tell the thief he would be that day?

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Since Jesus commended His Spirit to God upon His death, we know He went to heaven with His Father and that is where the thief went too.

You may not like this, but the scriptures show Jesus descended into Hell. But Jesus also went to Paradise. So therefore they are the same place.

Completely wrong Scripturally.

And when you read Luke 16 you can see this. The rich man went to Hell, but was in torments. But Lazarus also died and went to Hell, but he was in Paradise. They were both in the heart of the Earth, but they were seperated by a great gulf, although they could see, hear, and speak to each other.

It is your interpretation but not consistent with Scripture.

(I'm answering fast because my computer is going to shut itself off in a couple of minutes - I HATE that it does this.)
 

Winman

Active Member
The lower parts of the earth is the ground. It's not hell since hell is not located on the earth. Jesus first descended to earth, then returned to heaven.

Come on, Jesus himself said he would be in the "heart" of the earth for three days. Do you really believe the surface of the earth is the "heart" of the earth? And this shows that Jesus was speaking of his soul and not his body, as his body was buried above the surface of the ground. Yes, it was a man-made cave, but a stone had to be rolled in front of it which shows it was on surface level.

The word here for "hell" is the word for "grave". "Hell" is a wrong interpretation. Jesus' soul did not stay in the grave nor did his body see corruption.

Well, both David and Peter said that Jesus's "soul" was not left in "hell". Read for yourself.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Last I read, Jesus' body was in the earth for 3 days. It never says His soul was there too.

Well, now you know better.

Since Jesus commended His Spirit to God upon His death, we know He went to heaven with His Father and that is where the thief went too.

You are reading into the verse what it does not say.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

I don't see any mention of heaven in this verse. And Jesus himself said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth. Jesus was speaking here of "trust". He is trusting his very soul into his Father's hands, who raised him up three days later.

Completely wrong Scripturally.

It is your interpretation but not consistent with Scripture.

Well, it may not fit your preconceived beliefs, but it is completely scriptural and I have provided scripture for everything I have presented. Look in your Bible, and see if these verses are not there.

(I'm answering fast because my computer is going to shut itself off in a couple of minutes - I HATE that it does this.)

I'll be waiting.
 

Winman

Active Member
Where did they go then...and why would this be any different than dying first? Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

The scriptures say Enoch was translated. Now, I am not exactly sure what this means, but it does mean from one form to another. This could be describing when corruption puts on incorruption as at the Rapture.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


I do not believe it is too much of a stretch to believe that when Enoch was translated that he was changed as shown in 1 Cor 15:51-52.

As for Elijah, nothing is said on this matter, so I won't comment.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The passage above describes the return of Jesus Christ at which time the believers will be resurrected. That which Ecclesiastes 12:7 says is dust will become the resurrection body of the believer. I remind you again what Ecclesiastes states: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This passage is speaking of the death of the believer. Again, the passage Matthew 24:29-31 is the prelude to the resurrection of the believer.
 

Winman

Active Member
Yes, but the word "then" connects this verse to the preceding verses. So, this will not occur until those things that happen in verses 1-6 takes place.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What I am showing is that you are pulling one verse out of context.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Come on, Jesus himself said he would be in the "heart" of the earth for three days. Do you really believe the surface of the earth is the "heart" of the earth? And this shows that Jesus was speaking of his soul and not his body, as his body was buried above the surface of the ground. Yes, it was a man-made cave, but a stone had to be rolled in front of it which shows it was on surface level.

Then was He in the core? One of the mantles maybe?

From Jamieson, Faucett and Brown:

so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth--This was the second public announcement of His resurrection three days after His death. (For the first, see Jhn 2:19 ). Jonah's case was analogous to this, as being a signal judgment of God; reversed in three days; and followed by a glorious mission to the Gentiles. The expression "in the heart of the earth," suggested by the expression of Jonah with respect to the sea ( Jon 2:3 , in the Septuagint), means simply the grave, but this considered as the most emphatic expression of real and total entombment. The period during which He was to lie in the grave is here expressed in round numbers, according to the Jewish way of speaking, which was to regard any part of a day, however small, included within a period of days, as a full day.

He was not in hell. He was in the grave.



Well, both David and Peter said that Jesus's "soul" was not left in "hell". Read for yourself.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Hades is not speaking of hell as we know it but the grave. Jesus would not go to hell if He Himself committed His Spirit to God when He died. Remember this is a comparison to David that David's body is still in the grave when Jesus' is not. It's not speaking of hell as in the place of punishment and torment.



You are reading into the verse what it does not say.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

I don't see any mention of heaven in this verse. And Jesus himself said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth. Jesus was speaking here of "trust". He is trusting his very soul into his Father's hands, who raised him up three days later.

HUH? Where else would the Father be? Is the Father in hell?

There is not one Scripture that supports Jesus going to hell. I'm sorry but the verses you have given do not prove it.

The word "paradise" in Luke 23:43 also used in two other passages. Do these speak of hell?

2 Corinthians 12:1-5 " 1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. "

Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

How could the tree of life be in hell??

Next, when Jesus said "It is finished", why would He still have to go to hell? The price was paid. It was finished. He did not need to do any more work to atone for the sins of man.


Well, it may not fit your preconceived beliefs, but it is completely scriptural and I have provided scripture for everything I have presented. Look in your Bible, and see if these verses are not there.

Preconceived? Nah. I came to the conclusion through the study of the Scriptures. Apparently the idea that Jesus went to hell was not a belief in the early church because of evidence even in the Apostle's Creed. . The first time a creed said that "he descended into hell" was in 390AD by Rufinus, although he only put it in one of his creeds. Most likely, it was understood at the time that he was buried, as was the common useage of that term - note the word is "hades" and not "geenna". It was not in the Roman form of the creed that Rufinus preserved but another one. The next time we see the term in the Apostles Creed is not until 650AD. It WAS found in some creeds of the Arians (people who denied the full deity of Christ).



I'll be waiting.

Thanks. I hate the pressure of the counter going down as I'm trying to type something. But it was OK. I used the time to torture my husband who has a very injured toe (had surgery on Monday to repair it). It was swelling so we unwrapped it and I was going to put a cold pack on his foot. I didn't know he had to go potty but was trying to keep his foot up a bit longer. The cold pack didn't help. :laugh:
 

Winman

Active Member
There is not one Scripture that supports Jesus going to hell. I'm sorry but the verses you have given do not prove it.

Sorry, but I prefer the scriptures over the opinions of men. The scriptures clearly say Jesus soul was in hell.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

If you want to listen to men try to explain this away, that is your choice.

These verses also show that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


And you do not believe God the Father can be in hell? The scriptures say otherwise.

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

And if Jesus ascended up to God the Father when he died on the cross, why did he tell Mary Magdelene that he had not yet ascended to his Father on the day he rose from the dead?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now, if Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven to be with his Father, where was his soul for those three days?
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
The word "paradise" in Luke 23:43 also used in two other passages. Do these speak of hell?

2 Corinthians 12:1-5 " 1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. "

Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

:laugh:

Ann, I just wanted to point this out...
These 3 scriptures cover 2 different time periods...

Luke is pre resurrection
The other 2 are post resurrection...

I believe, like many Baptist before me, that Jesus took Paradise which was in the heart of the Earth to the Third Heaven upon his ascension...

So naturally, the scriptures in 2 Cor. and Rev. speak of Paradise and Heaven as the same...

But before that, Paradise was in the Heart of the Earth... with a big gulf seperating it from (Fiery) Hell.
 

Winman

Active Member
Ann, I just wanted to point this out...
These 3 scriptures cover 2 different time periods...

Luke is pre resurrection
The other 2 are post resurrection...

I believe, like many Baptist before me, that Jesus took Paradise which was in the heart of the Earth to the Third Heaven upon his ascension...

So naturally, the scriptures in 2 Cor. and Rev. speak of Paradise and Heaven as the same...

But before that, Paradise was in the Heart of the Earth... with a big gulf seperating it from (Fiery) Hell.

Yes, Ephesians 4 shows that Jesus led the saved dead out of the earth and delivered Paradise up to heaven. It is only after Jesus ascended to his Father that Paradise is spoken of as being up.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Notice verse 8 says "when" he ascended up on high he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. Perhaps this was the mansions Jesus spoke of, I am not completely certain on that.

But notice verse 9 says that he "first" descended into the lower parts of the earth. This phrase is also used in Psalms 63 and is clearly speaking of hell.

Psalms 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
 

Allan

Active Member
Hades is not speaking of hell as we know it but the grave. Jesus would not go to hell if He Himself committed His Spirit to God when He died. Remember this is a comparison to David that David's body is still in the grave when Jesus' is not. It's not speaking of hell as in the place of punishment and torment.
You have 2 problems here.
1st. Sheol does not mean grave onlyand should never be interpreted as such. Sheol means place of the dead and refers to both where the body is and where the spirit resides - at the same time. To speak of one (using this word) was to speak simultaneously of the other with emphasis more toward the spirit. Sheol is never used to mean only the grave. When the term is used There are other Hebrew words that mean grave, tomb, etc, and are used frequently in scripture. Sheol historically was understood in like manner that hades was, and is why both are used to speak of the same place. Hades which was like (or similar to) sheol was a place where both the godly and the ungodly dwell though they were in seperate places or better the comparments in which they resided were divided.


2nd. When Jesus stated 'into Your hands I commend My spirit' is a statement equivalent to 'my life/being is in Your hands' or 'the safety of my spirit is in Your care'.

This reflects David's prophetic statement of God not leaving His soul in sheol.
Sheol or the 'place of the dead' refers to both the physical and spiritual aspects at the same time.

The word "paradise" in Luke 23:43 also used in two other passages. Do these speak of hell?
The term paradise does mean garden but it also infers the place where God's people are. Since sin can not enter heaven and blood of bulls and goats could not remove it, no one could enter heaven. Even Jesus stated that no one had yet ascended to the Father.

2 Corinthians 12:1-5 " 1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. "
This is an event after the resurrection.


Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
Again after the Resurrection.

How could the tree of life be in hell??
Most theologians believe the Tree is representive of Jesus.
However this, again, is after Christ's resurrection.

Preconceived? Nah. I came to the conclusion through the study of the Scriptures. Apparently the idea that Jesus went to hell was not a belief in the early church because of evidence even in the Apostle's Creed.
Do a little diggin on early church views :)

The first time a creed said that "he descended into hell" was in 390AD by Rufinus, although he only put it in one of his creeds.
Actaully it IS in the Apostles Creed and is even acknowledged by scholars (as shown above) that it 'was' in his creeds as well.

Most likely, it was understood at the time that he was buried, as was the common useage of that term - note the word is "hades" and not "geenna".
First, this is just postulation in the first half of the sentence. Second, using the term hades refers to the place of the dead where both the godly and ungodly dwelled, where as gehenna refers specifically to the firery aspect for the unbelievers.

It was not in the Roman form of the creed that Rufinus preserved but another one. The next time we see the term in the Apostles Creed is not until 650AD. It WAS found in some creeds of the Arians (people who denied the full deity of Christ).
This is poor information and I'm curious where you got it from. He didn't 'preserve' anything intentionally however the one 'most' preserved was the later. One can make almost any kind argument based only on that fact, whether for or against. What you failed to note however is that it was recorded long before the Arians used it, which of course they used other things which were in line other aspects of commonly held creeds as well. That didn't make them untrue. I would say do a little more research on it and use more than one or two authors. This is not demeaning or belittling you sister. You will find there is more to it than the above.
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sorry, but I prefer the scriptures over the opinions of men. The scriptures clearly say Jesus soul was in hell.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Ahhh - so you're taking the English translation as gospel - when the Greek word used can mean "grave", correct? OK - so if we are speaking of "hell" as we know it in English, how is hell thrown into hell in Revelation 20? Why does 1 Corinthians 15:55 use "grave" instead of "hell"? "Hades" is not the hell that we think of but instead can refer to the grave.



If you want to listen to men try to explain this away, that is your choice.

These verses also show that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I already addressed this earlier. He descended to the earth from heaven. That's pretty straightforward. He didn't descend, descend then ascend then ascend. He descended then ascended. Once.



And you do not believe God the Father can be in hell? The scriptures say otherwise.

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
This word is "sheol" which means grave as well. Do a bit of a word-study. It's pretty interesting.

And if Jesus ascended up to God the Father when he died on the cross, why did he tell Mary Magdelene that he had not yet ascended to his Father on the day he rose from the dead?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now, if Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven to be with his Father, where was his soul for those three days?

His soul was with the Father those three days. However, note that He told Mary not to touch Him - He's speaking of His physical body which lay in the grave for 3 days. His body did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after the resurrection.


You may think I'm wrong but I'm in good company. From John Piper:

Did Jesus Spend Saturday in Hell?
March 22, 2008 | By: John Piper | Category: Commentary

The Apostles’ Creed says, “[He] was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day He arose again from the dead.” There are many meanings given to this phrase. I simply want to ponder the traditional interpretation that Christ went to the place of the dead to preach the gospel to Old Testament saints that he might set them free for the full experience of heaven. This is the view of the Catholic Catechism and many Protestants as well. I don’t think this is what the New Testament teaches.

The view is based mainly on two passages in 1 Peter.

Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (19) in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, (20) because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

They are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; (5) but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. (6) For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.” (1 Peter 4:4-6)

With regard to 1 Peter 3:19, I take these words to mean that Christ, through the voice of Noah, went and preached to that generation, whose spirits are now “in prison,” that is, in hell. In other words, Peter does not say that Christ preached to them while they were in prison. He says he preached to them once, during the days of Noah, and now they are in prison.

I think this is suggested as the more natural understanding of the passage in view of what Peter said earlier about the spirit of Christ speaking through the prophets of old.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (1 Peter 1:10-11)

With regard to 1 Peter 4:6, I take “preached to the dead” to refer to those who, after being preached to, have since died. He is not referring to preaching to them after they have died. The context suggests this kind of understanding, as J. N. D. Kelly explains:

They [the Christians] may well have been exposed to scoffing questions from pagan neighbors, and anxious ones from one another, “What is the gain of your having become Christians, since you apparently die like other men?” The writer’s answer is that, so far from being useless, the preaching of Christ and his gospel to those who have since died had precisely this end in view, that although according to human calculation they might seem to be condemned, they might in fact enjoy life eternal.” (A Commentary on the Epistles of Peter and Jude, 175)

I would say, therefore, that there is no textual basis in the New Testament for claiming that between Good Friday and Easter Christ was preaching to souls imprisoned in hell or Hades. There is textual basis for saying that he would be with the repentant thief in Paradise “today” (Luke 23:43), and one does not get the impression that he means a defective place from which the thief must then be delivered by more preaching.
For these and other reasons, it seems best to me to omit from the Apostles Creed the clause, “he descended into hell,” rather than giving it other meanings that are more defensible, the way Calvin does.

from http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1139_did_jesus_spend_saturday_in_hell/

JI Packer from Jesus, Keep Me Near the Cross

The English is misleading, for “hell” has changed its sense since the English form of the Creed was fixed. Originally, “hell” meant the place of the departed as such, corresponding to the Greek Hades and the Hebrew Sheol. That is what it means here, where the Creed echoes Peter’s statement that Psalm 16:10, “thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades” (so RSV: AV has “hell”), was a prophecy fulfilled when Jesus rose (see Acts 2:27–31). But since the seventeenth century, “hell” has been used to signify only the state of final retribution for the godless, for which the New Testament name is Gehenna.

What the Creed means, however, is that Jesus entered, not Gehenna, but Hades—that is, that he really died, and that it was from a genuine death, not a simulated one, that he rose.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ann, I just wanted to point this out...
These 3 scriptures cover 2 different time periods...

Luke is pre resurrection
The other 2 are post resurrection...

I believe, like many Baptist before me, that Jesus took Paradise which was in the heart of the Earth to the Third Heaven upon his ascension...

So naturally, the scriptures in 2 Cor. and Rev. speak of Paradise and Heaven as the same...

But before that, Paradise was in the Heart of the Earth... with a big gulf seperating it from (Fiery) Hell.

Tim - Do you have any Scripture that shows this? That Jesus took Paradise to heaven?
 

Winman

Active Member
I have already provided the scriptures, does it matter who presents them?

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


There it is in verse 8, it says "when" Jesus ascended he led captivity captive. Many believe this to be speaking of the saved who were in Paradise, which at that time was in the heart of the earth.

And verse 9 makes it clear that the ascension spoken of is after Jesus first descended into the "lower parts" of the earth.

The reason Jesus could not be touched was because as high priest he had to sprinkle his blood on the Mercy Seat. As Allan wrote, the blood of bulls and rams could only cover sins, not take them away. So men could not ascend into heaven until Jesus offered his own blood once and for all.

This compares to the blood offered by Aaron in Leviticus chapter 16. Read there and you will see the high priest had to wash himself and could not be touched by the people.

And the scriptures say Jesus became our high priest.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


And Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

You can listen to men if you want, but Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended up to heaven. They could not until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the Mercy Seat there.
 

Amy.G

New Member
I am in agreement with Winman. This view is quite common and in fact it is taught in the study notes of the King James Study Bible, which previously was the Liberty Study Bible of Liberty University.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have already provided the scriptures, does it matter who presents them?

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


There it is in verse 8, it says "when" Jesus ascended he led captivity captive. Many believe this to be speaking of the saved who were in Paradise, which at that time was in the heart of the earth.

Many people might believe it but that doesn't make it so. Matthew Henry explains this passage:

Wherefore he saith (v. 8), that is, the Psalmist saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. David prophesied of the ascension of Christ; and the apostle descants upon it here, and in the three following verses. When he ascended up on high. We may understand the apostle both of the place into which he ascended in his human nature, that is, the highest heavens, and particularly of the state to which he was advanced, he being then highly exalted, and eminently glorified, by his Father. Let us set ourselves to think of the ascension of Jesus Christ: that our blessed Redeemer, having risen from the dead, in gone to heaven, where he sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high, which completed the proof of his being the Son of God. As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Judges 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands.

The passage does not at all speak of those who were to go to heaven but it speaks of enemies.

Jamieson, Faucett and Brown further say:

When he ascended--GOD is meant in the Psalm, represented by the ark, which was being brought up to Zion in triumph by David, after that "the Lord had given him rest round about from all his enemies" ( 2Sa 6:1 - 7:1 1Ch 15:1-29 ). Paul quotes it of CHRIST ascending to heaven, who is therefore GOD.
captivity--that is, a band of captives. In the Psalm, the captive foes of David. In the antitypical meaning, the foes of Christ the Son of David, the devil, death, the curse, and sin ( Col 2:15 2Pe 2:4 ), led as it were in triumphal procession as a sign of the destruction of the foe.



And verse 9 makes it clear that the ascension spoken of is after Jesus first descended into the "lower parts" of the earth.

Yes - He ascended to earth. I agree with that. I do not agree that He descended to hell.

The reason Jesus could not be touched was because as high priest he had to sprinkle his blood on the Mercy Seat. As Allan wrote, the blood of bulls and rams could only cover sins, not take them away. So men could not ascend into heaven until Jesus offered his own blood once and for all.

But why did Thomas touch Jesus? If you say that Jesus could not be touched because He had to sprinkle His blood on the Mercy Seat, then why was Thomas able to touch Him? Did He ascend, sprinkle the blood on the Mercy Seat and then come back again?

This compares to the blood offered by Aaron in Leviticus chapter 16. Read there and you will see the high priest had to wash himself and could not be touched by the people.

And the scriptures say Jesus became our high priest.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


And Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

You can listen to men if you want, but Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended up to heaven. They could not until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the Mercy Seat there.

I don't listen to man - I listen to God's Word. No man HAS ascended into heaven to find out the things of God. Jesus shows how Moses went to the mountain - not to heaven. Read the context of the passage - it's not speaking of the dead going to heaven.

9Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.


Once again, I read the Scriptures and see that Jesus Christ did not go to hell nor did He need to. It was upon His death that the gates of hell were broken - and even the grave, as we see that people were raised from the dead on His death - not after He went to hell for a few days. "It is finished" meant just that.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am in agreement with Winman. This view is quite common and in fact it is taught in the study notes of the King James Study Bible, which previously was the Liberty Study Bible of Liberty University.

It, however, was not even a belief of the early church. It was a later added phrase to the Apostles Creed that was misunderstood. "He descended into hell", when it was added did not mean that Jesus went to the place of eternal torment but that He went to the grave.
 

Winman

Active Member
But why did Thomas touch Jesus? If you say that Jesus could not be touched because He had to sprinkle His blood on the Mercy Seat, then why was Thomas able to touch Him? Did He ascend, sprinkle the blood on the Mercy Seat and then come back again?

Yes, that was eight days later.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


Notice the doors were shut. Jesus suddenly appeared in the midst of them.

And we could not come into the holiest (heaven) until Jesus blood was offered.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now we can enter in

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Tim - Do you have any Scripture that shows this? That Jesus took Paradise to heaven?

I haven't yet seen anyone present any Scripture that shows that Paradise is different from Heaven. I believe that is the question posed in the OP is it not.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
And Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

You can listen to men if you want, but Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended up to heaven. They could not until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the Mercy Seat there.

What about Enoch and Elijah. Both are said to have been taken to heaven in bodily form.

You may ignore Ecclesiastes 12.7 and John Gill's interpretation if you choose but I believe that you are incorrect. In Ecclesiastes 3:21 we have a similar teaching:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

John Gill comments on this passage as follows:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? &c.] There is indeed a difference between a man and a beast; though they have one breath, they have not one spirit or soul; man has a rational and immortal soul, which, when he dies, goes upwards to God that gave it; to be judged by him, and disposed of by him, in its proper apartment, until the day of the resurrection of the body;

and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? when the beast dies, its spirit goes down to the earth, from whence it came, and is resolved into it, and is no more. But who is it that sees, or can see and know with the eyes of his body, the difference of these two spirits, or the ascent of the one, and the descent of the other?, Or who knows by the dint of reason, by the strength of his own understanding, without a divine revelation, that man has an immortal soul which goes upwards at death, when that of a beast goes downwards? No man, clearly and fully, as appears from the doubts and half faith of the wisest Heathens concerning it: or rather who knows and considers this difference between the spirit of a man and the spirit of a beast, and thinks within himself what a precious and immortal soul he has, and is concerned for the salvation of it? Very few; and hence it is they live and die like beasts, as they do. The Midrash interprets this of the souls of the righteous that go up to heaven, and of the souls of the wicked that go down to hell.


It is not clear to me from reading your posts, and those who agree with you, whether you believe that the body and soul of Jesus Christ went to the hell of Satan or not. That is Word of Faith doctrine which is heretical.

I believe that when Jesus Christ, the man, died that His body went into the grave and His soul went into the presence of God to await the resurrection of His body. When Jesus Christ told the thief on the cross that they would be together in Paradise that day He was speaking of their spiritual natures and He meant they would be in the presence of GOD.

I have yet to see anyone present Scripture to show that Paradise of GOD is not Heaven. I believe that is the question posed in the OP is it not.
 
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