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Are Heaven and Paradise the same?
- Thread starter th1bill
- Start date
A couple of problems with the concept of soul sleep post-resurrection.
1 - It contradicts the scripture contect of "absent with the body, present with the Lord".
2 - It presumes that Rev 21 is linear and literal.
3 - It presumes that, after our death, we are limited by the constraints of temporal laws (temporal laws are a constraint of the physical universe, not the spiritual).
1 - It contradicts the scripture contect of "absent with the body, present with the Lord".
2 - It presumes that Rev 21 is linear and literal.
3 - It presumes that, after our death, we are limited by the constraints of temporal laws (temporal laws are a constraint of the physical universe, not the spiritual).
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I'm advocating what the bible says.
Not if you are advocating soul sleep!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Don't you mean pre Resurrection?
I see nothing in Revelation 21 regarding soul sleep. Help me out.
Do you know what it means to be "asleep in Christ"? Or not?
Yep, it means your body is dead.
So are the bodies of unbelievers who've rejected Christ. So again, do you know what it means to be "asleep in Christ?"
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Do you know what it means to be "asleep in Christ"? Or not?
Apparently you do not. It certainly does not mean soul sleep.
God through the Apostle Paul tells us:
2 Corinthians 5:6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Corinthians 5:8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Philippians 1:21. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
God through the Apostle John tells us:
Revelation 6:9-11
9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So are the bodies of unbelievers who've rejected Christ. So again, do you know what it means to be "asleep in Christ?"
I believe that soul sleep is the doctrine of the Watchtower Society.
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I've never once used the term "soul sleep". Only you have. I've used the term "asleep in Christ" which the bible uses. Don't you like the terminology of the bible?
Would you prefer that I not use God's terminology?If so, why not?OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I've never once used the term "soul sleep". Only you have. I've used the term "asleep in Christ" which the bible uses. Don't you like the terminology of the bible?
Then quit playing cutesy word games and tell what you understand "asleep in Christ" to mean.
I go to sleep in Jesus Christ every night, sleep all night in Jesus Christ, and wake up each morning in Jesus Christ. Some day my spirit/soul will go into the presence of the Triune God to await in conscious praise of God the resurrection of the glorified body.
Don't patronize me. You're the one who's accusing me of things I didn't say. If you're going to be argumentative instead conversational, then I have no desire to converse with you. Asleep in Christ means that our flesh dies but Christ's Spirit in us lives on. Once we are born again of the Holy Spirit, that Spirit never dies. If you think he does, then you do not agree with Jesus that the HS is eternal.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Don't lie about what I said! I have made it perfectly clear that the spirit/soul of the dead believer goes immediately into the presence of God and that it is in a conscious state.
I never accused you of anything. I asked a very logical and simple question. You have used the phrase "asleep in Christ" in 4 posts and yet would not state how you interpreted that phrase. I call that being "cutesy".
Even with the above post you still have nor stated how you really understand the phrase "asleep in Christ". Though you say that the spirit of the believer never dies that does not answer the question as to whether or not you believe that the spirit/soul of the believer is in a conscious state or an unconscious state after the death of the body.
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No one asked me to interpret it! So I assumed people knew what it meant until you called what I said "soul sleep" which is a lie. Then I asked you what it means. Then you asked me what it means to be asleep in Christ and I answered you.
So instead of making false accusations about me to begin with all you needed to do was ask me what my interpretation of being "asleep in Christ means." So you're the one who's playing games and I have no desire to be a party to them any more.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Post #99
Read Rev. 21 about the New Jerusalem which is our final destination. It comes after the great white throne judgment at which time each of us will be called to account and take the particular "room" that Christ has prepared for us. before then, we will simply be asleep in Christ which is paradise, but not our final resting place.
Post #114
No one asked me to interpret it! So I assumed people knew what it meant until you called what I said "soul sleep" which is a lie. Then I asked you what it means. Then you asked me what it means to be asleep in Christ and I answered you.
So instead of making false accusations about me to begin with all you needed to do was ask me what my interpretation of being "asleep in Christ means." So you're the one who's playing games and I have no desire to be a party to them any more.
You see Carico you are wrong! Your initial post regarding "asleep in Christ" was #99. I immediately ask your interpretation in Post #100. You posted the same phrase 3 additional times without providing an interpretation. Finally in your Post #112 you made an attempt which was still not definitive!
Carico
After reading through these posts I agree with Old Regular.
Please clearly define the difference between the Biblical phrase "alive in Christ," and what others call "soul sleep." There is a big difference, and you need to be able to differentiate that difference. Can you put in words the difference between these two very much different doctrines.
After reading through these posts I agree with Old Regular.
Please clearly define the difference between the Biblical phrase "alive in Christ," and what others call "soul sleep." There is a big difference, and you need to be able to differentiate that difference. Can you put in words the difference between these two very much different doctrines.
Enoch and Elijah did not die, so they would not go to the place of the dead before Christ's ascension.
I am not ignoring this verse, I believe every word of God. But you are lifting this one verse out of context. What do verses 1-6 say?
Ecc 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Look at verse 2. When has the sun, the light, the moon, and stars been darkened? This is speaking of the time after the tribulation. Notice it says "in the day" when the keepers of the house will tremble, and the strong men will bow themselves. This is not speaking of the death of an individual man.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The judgment is future.
Matt 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Well, I do not believe Luke 16 is a parable and neither do many Bible scholars. Parables do not mention specific men by name.
Well, I don't know what the Papists believe, but the scriptures say Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth, that's good enough for me. You know, the Catholics aren't in error on everything, on some things they are correct. And the very verses contradict what your man Gill says, in Eph 4:9 it explains that the ascension being spoken of was connected to Christ first descending into the lower parts of the earth.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
That's OK, this is a difficult subject that has caused controversy for centuries. But I believe that before Christ ascended to heaven and offered his blood on the Mercy Seat that all men went to hell when they died. But at that time hell was sectioned off into one compartment of torment for the unsaved, and a seperate compartment for the saved called Paradise or Abrahams' bosom.
The fact is, the scriptures say Jesus went down into hell.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
And Peter repeated this verse in Acts 2 and added this to it:
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Now, if Jesus went to Hell (and the scriptures say he did), when did he go? After he died on the cross. And where did Jesus promise the thief he would be the very day Jesus was crucified? PARADISE. So there you go, Paradise was part of Hell.
Think about it.
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Not so. I just showed scripture that says Jesus descended into the lower parts of the Earth.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
There you go, three verses that say Jesus descended into the lower parts or heart of the earth. And Peter named this place as Hell.
But where did Jesus tell the thief he would be that day?
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
You may not like this, but the scriptures show Jesus descended into Hell. But Jesus also went to Paradise. So therefore they are the same place.
And when you read Luke 16 you can see this. The rich man went to Hell, but was in torments. But Lazarus also died and went to Hell, but he was in Paradise. They were both in the heart of the Earth, but they were seperated by a great gulf, although they could see, hear, and speak to each other.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
There you go, three verses that say Jesus descended into the lower parts or heart of the earth. And Peter named this place as Hell.
But where did Jesus tell the thief he would be that day?
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
You may not like this, but the scriptures show Jesus descended into Hell. But Jesus also went to Paradise. So therefore they are the same place.
And when you read Luke 16 you can see this. The rich man went to Hell, but was in torments. But Lazarus also died and went to Hell, but he was in Paradise. They were both in the heart of the Earth, but they were seperated by a great gulf, although they could see, hear, and speak to each other.
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