Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

[OldRegular]

... I must ask, "Would you be so kind as to not shoot from the hip and show us in the scriptures?"

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luke 23:46. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[OldRegular]

Webdog, I would disagree with you on that.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This was after Jesus had risen from the dead and spoke to Mary Magdalene. He said he had not yet ascended to the Father.

He was speaking of His resurrection body.

 

[OldRegular]

... That is an interesting spin you have put on my words, it is a spin most often twirled by the lost man. I ever said that Jesus is not in Heaven. My case is built on the scriptures and the truth is that Jesus did not ascend into Heaven until He was resurrected on the third day and the truth of the matter is that Jesus never descended into the Lake of Fire, a.k.a. Hell, but He did open the gates of Paradise, a.k.a. Abraham's Buxom, allowing the Old Testament saints to enter Heaven after He preached to them.
... Now, I did not offer you my opinion, I presented you, both of my pastors, several missionaries on the field in Central America and Africa the Biblical case for my stance. To be blunt and honest, your opinion, without scripture, is of no value at all. By the taking of the name Christian, we admit that our status is Bond Servant, a.k.a. Slave, belonging to God. As His servants it is His opinion that we must seek.
... May God bless all of His servants!

You are incorrect!

As I have indicated in several Scripture upon death the spirit/soul of the believer returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I would also note the following:

Genesis 5:22-24
22. And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Now where did God take Enoch? Then there is the case of Elijah:

2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Finally consider Hebrews 9:11-14:

11. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Now surely no one would argue that Jesus Christ would tarry in the grave three days before accomplishing redemption for His elect.

 

[OldRegular]

Let's start with this question: In the OT, where did the souls of the dead go when they died?

According to Ecclesiastes 12:7, as webdog has already noted, the souls of the believers returned to God.

 

[OldRegular]

Some questions for the "Abraham's Bosom" crowd...

Where did Elijah go in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2:1, 2:11)?

Where were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at before Christ went to the cross (Matthew 8:11)?

Where did Paul tell us paradise is in 2 Corinithians 12:2-4? Is this place "up" or down? In fact, is paradise in the previous verses in reference to paradise ever mentioned as being "up" or down?

Where does it tell us that the spirit goes in Ecclesiastes 12:7 (prior to the cross) after death?

Finish this phrase "to be absent from the body is to be _________________" (2 Corinthians 5:6-9

webdog

I started responding to posts before reading the entire thread. I see that I have repeated some of your points. Well, repetition is a good tool for teaching!:laugh::wavey:

 

[OldRegular]

John Gill comments on Ecclesiastes as follows:

"Ver. 7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, &c.] The body, which is made of dust, and is no other in its present state than dust refined and enlivened; and when the above things take place, mentioned in Ec 12:6, or at death, it returns to its original earth; it becomes immediately a clod of earth, a lifeless lump of clay, and is then buried in the earth, where it rots, corrupts, and turns into it; which shows the frailty of man, and may serve to humble his pride, as well as proves that death is not an annihilation even of the body; see Ge 3:19 Job 1:21;

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it; from whom it is, by whom it is created, who puts it into the bodies of men, as a deposit urn they are entrusted with, and are accountable for, and should be concerned for the safety and salvation of it; this was originally breathed into man at his first creation, and is now formed within him by the Lord; hence he is called the God of the spirits of all flesh; see Ge 2:4 Zec 12:1 Nu 16:22. Now at death the soul, or spirit of man, returns to God; which if understood of the souls of men in general, it means that at death they return to God the Judge of all, who passes sentence on them, and orders those that are good to the mansions of bliss and happiness, and those that are evil to hell and destruction. So the Targum adds,

``that it may stand in judgment before the Lord;''

or if only of the souls of good men, the sense is, that they then return to God, not only as their Creator, but as their covenant God and Father, to enjoy his presence evermore; and to Christ their Redeemer, to be for ever with him, than which nothing is better and more desirable; this shows that the soul is immortal, and dies not with the body, nor sleeps in the grave with it, but is immediately with God."

Sorry but I trust Gill on this passage more than anyone on this Forum.

 

[Winman]

I agree with those who believe hell was divided into two segments, one of torment, one called paradise until after the Lord ascended and offered his blood to anoint the mercy seat. Only afterward could saints go directly to heaven.

We have two examples of OT saints being in the earth.

First, Samuel.

1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

It is clear here that Samuel was brought up out of the earth. So he was not in heaven.

And we have Lazarus in Luke 16.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Note it says Lazarus was carried "into" Abraham's bosom. And though these two sections were seperated by a great gulf, they could see each other. And notice in verse 31 it says "rose" from the dead.

I believe Jesus soul and spirit went down into this paradise section of hell. After he rose from the dead he offered his blood at the mercy seat. Sometime after that I believe he brought the saved dead out of the earth and took them to heaven.

I have read one article that says John 14 speaks of Jesus offering his blood on the mercy seat as making it possible for dead saints to ascend to heaven.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Heaven is already created, and Jesus says that the mansions are already there. But he had to offer his blood on the mercy seat in order for dead saints to ascend to heaven and take possession of these mansions. And notice Jesus said he had to go and prepare a place for us, then he must return and receive you unto himself.

And we also have John 3:13

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Now, according to Jesus, at the time he spoke to Nicodemus no man had yet ascended to heaven.

 

[webdog]

Paradise section of hell is an oxymoron.

 

[Johnv]

But a paradise section is Sheol is not only consistant with the OT, it's archeologically consistent with Jewish beliefs prior to the advent of Christianity.

 

[Winman]

Paradise section of hell is an oxymoron.

I don't think so. Look again at Luke 16

Luke 16:Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Jesus said he would be in the "heart" of the earth three days.

Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I believe the word "heart" of the earth would show this to be in the depths of the earth, not a grave.

And notice in Luke 16 it says the angels carried Lazarus "into" Abraham's bosom. So this is not the physical grave, he was buried by men.

And Jesus compared himself to Jonah. Look at the terms Jonah used when in the whale's belly.

Jon 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. 4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah makes many references to being in the depths, and speaks of being brought up. And Jesus compares his three days to those of Jonah's.

 

[DHK]

... You have claimed to be a Christian and I never claimed, in any fashion that you were not saved, that is a lie! I said that I did not expect to see you at the Bride's Table and to a studied Christian that places you, at best, at the Guest's Table. The guests are saved but they are only observers at the wedding. (Matt. 22:1-14)
... FYI The screen name is a left over from my days before I took Christ. There is a funny history involved with the screen name and i have kept because the LORD has not moved me to change it and it is a persistent reminder of what God has saved me from. Learning abut a person before you rag them out will profit you much.

[BILL YOU HAVE SAID THIS:

... You have claimed to be a Christian and I never claimed, in any fashion that you were not saved, that is a lie! I said that I did not expect to see you at the Bride's Table and to a studied Christian that places you, at best, at the Guest's Table. The guests are saved but they are only observers at the wedding. (Matt. 22:1-14)

TO STATE THAT A SAVED PERSON WILL NOT BE AT THE WEDDING BUT ONLY AN OBSERVER IS AS GOOD AS SAYING THEY ARE UNSAVED. YOU ARE JUST PLAYING A GAME OF SEMANTICS. IN THE BOOK OF JOB SATAN HAD ACCESS TO GOD AS WELL. YOU WILL DO WISE TO KEEP YOUR REMARKS MORE TACTFUL.

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.]

DHK

To restate the warning.

 

[OldRegular]

Note it says Lazarus was carried "into" Abraham's bosom. And though these two sections were seperated by a great gulf, they could see each other. And notice in verse 31 it says "rose" from the dead.

Who carried Lazarus to Abraham's Bosom. You say in a later post: And notice in Luke 16 it says the angels carried Lazarus "into" Abraham's bosom. So this is not the physical grave, he was buried by men.

So what did the angels carry to Abraham's Bosom? His spirit. His body was burried by men. That then agrees with Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Abraham's Bosom is simply a metaphor for heaven.

Now admittedly Abraham is called "the friend of God" but he does not speak for God in matters of Judgment. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is metaphorical, perhaps a parable.

I believe Jesus soul and spirit went down into this paradise section of hell. After he rose from the dead he offered his blood at the mercy seat. Sometime after that I believe he brought the saved dead out of the earth and took them to heaven.

That is not consistent with Ecclesiastes 12:7. It is not even consistent with your interpretation of the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Neither does it comport with the remarks of Jesus Christ who said:

Luke 23:46. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John Gill says of this passage:

Ver. 46. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, &c.] A second time; for at the first loud cry, he uttered these words, "Eli, Eli, lama, sabachthani"; and at the second what follows; see Mt 27:46-50 See Gill on "Mt 27:46". See Gill on "Mt 27:47". See Gill on "Mt 27:48". See Gill on "Mt 27:49". See Gill on "Mt 27:50".

he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my Spirit; not the Holy Spirit, nor his divine nature, but his human soul: for that he had a reasonable soul, as well as a true body, is certain; from his having an human understanding, will, and affections, ascribed to him; and indeed, without this he would not have been a perfect man, nor like unto us; and could not have been tempted, bore sorrows and griefs, and endured the wrath of God; nor could he have been a Saviour of souls: now just as he was expiring, as he made his soul an offering for sin, and which he offered unto God, he committed it to his divine care and protection; and to enjoy his presence, during its separation from his body, using the words of the Psalmist in Ps 31:5 and this shows, that his spirit, or soul, belonged to God, the Father of spirits, and now returned to him that gave it; that it was immortal, and died not with the body, and was capable of existing in a separate state from it, and went immediately to heaven; all which is true of the souls of all believers in Christ; and what the dying head did, dying members may, and should, even commit their souls into the same hands: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost; breathed out his soul dismissed his spirit, laid down his life, freely and voluntarily, and which no man, or devil, otherwise could have taken away from him.

 

[annsni]

I neither expected, demand nor even requested that everyone agree with what I posted. This conversation went south when webdog went extra-Biblical and began spouting his opinion and making his opinion equal to the Holy Scriptures. Now you are trying to kill a dead dog?

No dead dog here. Webdog posted Scriptural thoughts but just did so in a faster way without the Scripture references listed for support. But if you read the Bible, they're there.

 

[Johnv]

No dead dog here.

I wanted to verify that. I picked up my neighbor's housecat and waved it over the dog, which I identified as a Laberador. The lab jumped up and started barking.

So now, (you know this is coming, don't you) you guys all owe me for a cat scan and a lab fee.

 

[OldRegular]

I wanted to verify that. I picked up my neighbor's housecat and waved it over the dog, which I identified as a Laberador. The lab jumped up and started barking.

So now, (you know this is coming, don't you) you guys all owe me for a cat scan and a lab fee.

I am from the government and the check is in the mail!:laugh::laugh:

 

[tinytim]

Pretty feasible breakdown there Tim, IMO; off subject, but may I ask if you have any opinion about the other two parts of Heaven and how they come into to play?

I just saw your request...

1st Heaven = Earth's atmosphere
2nd Heaven = Universe
3rd Heaven = God's throne.. exists outside of Time, Space, and Matter.

 

[annsni]

I wanted to verify that. I picked up my neighbor's housecat and waved it over the dog, which I identified as a Laberador. The lab jumped up and started barking.

So now, (you know this is coming, don't you) you guys all owe me for a cat scan and a lab fee.

I am from the government and the check is in the mail!

Gentlemen, thank you SOOOOO much for making a very stinky day end on a fun note. I really very honestly appreciate it. You guys are great.

 

[annsni]

I agree with those who believe hell was divided into two segments, one of torment, one called paradise until after the Lord ascended and offered his blood to anoint the mercy seat. Only afterward could saints go directly to heaven.

We have two examples of OT saints being in the earth.

First, Samuel.

1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

It is clear here that Samuel was brought up out of the earth. So he was not in heaven.

So you say that we're able to communicate with the dead???????

 

[tinytim]

The Bible (God) said it was Samuel talking to Saul... So in this case, Yes..

 

[th1bill]

No dead dog here. Webdog posted Scriptural thoughts but just did so in a faster way without the Scripture references listed for support. But if you read the Bible, they're there.

But what is the address? He never used it, he fired from the hip without ever drawing his armament.