Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

[webdog]

Let's start with this question: In the OT, where did the souls of the dead go when they died?

That's in my set of questions

 

[Johnv]

Oh yeah, huh?

We shouldn't read too much into Eccleasteses 12:7. It says a person's dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God. The verse attempts to differentiate between our physical selves and our spiritual selves.

In regards to my question of where the souls of the dead went when the body died, the answer is that souls went to Sheol (sometimes translated "the grave", sometimes translated "hell", but different from the "Lake of Fire"). To understand Sheol to the Jewish mind requires a grasp of Jewish cosmology (not just Jewish philosophy). In short, both righteous and unrighteous souls went to Sheol.

 

[Marcia]

Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Yes, his body was in the earth/grave.

 

[Marcia]

I disagree that Abraham's Bosom was a different place than Heaven...and to answer the OP, if Paradise is a place where Christ is present, there is no separation from God. Paradise / Heaven are one in the same.

Webdog, we agree (don't faint or anything)! I tend to have this view as well.

The fact is, the Bible is not clear about where Paradise is and therefore, it can be argued either way (Paradise is or is not heaven), imo. But I think that Paradise being heaven makes more sense.

I think what this word meant in Jewish context would be important.

The word "paradise" is probably of Persian origin. It occurs but three times in the Old Testament, namely, in Cant. iv. 13, Eccl. ii. 5, and Neh. ii. 8. In the first of these passages it means "garden"; in the second and third, "park." In the apocalypses and in the Talmud the word is used of the Garden of Eden and its heavenly prototype (comp. references in Weber's "Jüdische Theologie," 2d ed., 1897, pp. 344 et seq.). From this usage it came to denote, as in the New Testament, the abode of the blessed (comp. Luke xxiii. 43; II Cor. xii. 4; Rev. ii. 7).

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=65&letter=P#ixzz0TDAkgHOP​

 

[Allan]

Some questions for the "Abraham's Bosom" crowd...

Where did Elijah go in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2:1, 2:11)?

No problem

The 'into heaven' for Elijah does not refer necessarily to God's abode known as the third heaven though it 'could' but in the Hebrew there were 3 heavens. One was the sky, one is where the stars are, and the 'third heaven' is the abode of God. Here however I believe it refers to the sky as it is a whirlwind/firy chariot that picks him 'up' and into heaven. If you watch a tornado pick something up and take it into the sky, we would say 'sky' but the Hebrew word is 'heaven'. Since we both understand that context determines how a word is used, and the context here refers to Elishah watching what is happening and describing it in the manner of a 'whirlwind/chariot' going up, the context here is dealing with the sky during the daylight hours. So if Elijah was picked up and leaving our atmosphere he would slowly vanish from sight.

Now here is the problem with them or any OT saints being in third heaven before Christ's death and resurrection. Sin can not enter heaven without immediately being judged. Hebrews in the NT says that the OT sacrifices 'did not take away sin' but only covered it. It is the same as saying a person is covered with sewage but put over it a long clean white robe. It doesn't take away the stench or uncleaness of it only covers it for a time. The other problem here is that the coat is now defiled as well since unclean thing contaminate clean things but never does the clean affect the unclean in the same manner. Therefore though their sins were covered they were not removed and thus they can not and could not enter heaven without having their sins 'removed'. Which is what Christ sacrifice did, it removed the sin completely.

Where were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at before Christ went to the cross (Matthew 8:11)?

Since this is a prophetic statement, they 'will be' in the Kingdom of God 'after' Christ's death and resurrection.

Where did Paul tell us paradise is in 2 Corinithians 12:2-4? Is this place "up" or down? In fact, is paradise in the previous verses in reference to paradise ever mentioned as being "up" or down?

Paul's vision was 'after' Christ's ascension not before.

Where does it tell us that the spirit goes in Ecclesiastes 12:7 (prior to the cross) after death?

I will deal this one later tonight. Time from me to eat.

Finish this phrase "to be absent from the body is to be _________________" (2 Corinthians 5:6-9

This again is 'after' Christ's ascension.

 

[th1bill]

Correct, you stated He went somewhere called Paradise which is not Heaven. I disagreed (and I'm not lost, btw)
That's one long sentence! I agree He never went to Hell, but the burden of proof is on you that Abraham's Bosom was a place separate from Heaven that needed "opening". I also disagree He literally "preached" to anyone, rather that is a figure of speech pertaining to His victory over sin.
To be honest, you presented their view of that Scripture which is nothing more than opinion....no different than mine.
Agreed :thumbs:

webdog,
... You can demonstrate your twinkle toes until the cows come home but God will not shrug and pass your false teaching off as cute. Pleasedo not claim not to be teaching, yu posted the message and Satan did not make you do it Mr. Wilson.
... I never judged you as a lost man, that is not area, it belongs to God. I compared your publishing style with that of the lost man and still you shoot from the hip, build straw men ad avoid the scriptures like the plague. As for the scriptures being the opinions of men, all I can say is that you need t fall back five yards and punt. (2Tim. 3:16) All scripture is breathed by God.
... Now, about discerning the state of a man's salvation. As a Christian I know, from studying the scriptures, these past 18+ years that a man's spiritual condition is made known by the fruit he or she bears. Sir, your fruit stinks! My best assessment of your spiritual condition from this short encounter does not lead me to believe that I be seated at the wedding table with you, short of repentance on your part.

 

[th1bill]

Again, the burden of proof is on you to show that "Abraham's Bosom" was a place separate from Heaven.

... No, I posted the OP ad you have stated that I am wrong ad have failed to support your words. You have nt made your case at all.

 

[th1bill]

8Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one[e] greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.

43"When an evil[f] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

This is Matthew 12:40 in context. Nothing here even alludes to the fact Christ went to an "Abraham's Bosom", in fact such a notion contradicts other OT Scripture like Ecclesiastes 12:7. His analogy was in Jonah being under the surface physically as His body would be "under the surface" physically. The righteous' spirit returns to God upon death. Abraham's Bosom really is no different than Purgatory in reasoning, which is not biblical IMO.

I'm sorry but you are way out in left field. Go back a read, slowly, the OP and you will find that I never said that Jesus was not in the ground for three days, you said that. You have Jesus ascending to sit beside the Father before He receives the glorified body. The text given by me in the OP places Jesus, in the spirit, preaching to the Old Testament saints.
... The text you have posted has naught t do with the issue you choose to dispute.

 

[th1bill]

Some questions for the "Abraham's Bosom" crowd...

Where did Elijah go in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2:1, 2:11)?

Where were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at before Christ went to the cross (Matthew 8:11)?

Where did Paul tell us paradise is in 2 Corinithians 12:2-4? Is this place "up" or down? In fact, is paradise in the previous verses in reference to paradise ever mentioned as being "up" or down?

Where does it tell us that the spirit goes in Ecclesiastes 12:7 (prior to the cross) after death?

Finish this phrase "to be absent from the body is to be _________________" (2 Corinthians 5:6-9

... There you go building straw men ad ignoring every word I posted in the OP. Nobody wants to argue with you, to do so is a exercise in vainty when all that is needed is for you to read the OP and to think about what it says and not add to it what is not there. Your examples and proof texts are examples fr after the cross. my OP deals with the Saints that died before Jesus. You're using oranges to belittle apples, it wo't work.

 

[Allan]

... There you go building straw men ad ignoring every word I posted in the OP. Nobody wants to argue with you, to do so is a exercise in vainty when all that is needed is for you to read the OP and to think about what it says and not add to it what is not there. Your examples and proof texts are examples fr after the cross. my OP deals with the Saints that died before Jesus. You're using oranges to belittle apples, it wo't work.

I only agree in part with the OP but there are some aspects that I believe are incorrect. One such point is that the Rich man is not in hell when in fact the scripture itself says point blank that he 'is' in hell.

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

I think you have the wrong idea of hell being the place where people are sent 'after' judgment. Hell is a holding place awaiting judgment and the place to which people are sent 'after the judgment' is into the Lake of Fire which is also called or known as, the second death.

 

[wpbarrett]

I've read several of Webdog's post and although I might not agree with everything he and others say on here, I do believe I will meet him in Heaven. I consider him a fellow adopted son of God. To accuse a man of false teaching and questioning his salvation over scriptures than can be and are confusing to some of us is very dangerous ground. The last I heard this is a debate forum and not a Judgment forum . Bill you started this thread with a chip on your shoulder and I pray that you don't leave this thread with a chip on your shoulder. Lets bring Glory to God and not ourselves, thats something that we have all been guilty of at one time or another.

God's grace to you and your family, Billy

 

[Allan]

Where does it tell us that the spirit goes in Ecclesiastes 12:7 (prior to the cross) after death?

Ok, back to your final question.

This does not say the spirits of the righteous but in fact it refers to ALL spirits will in fact come back or come before God. It refers to the fact that just as all men will die, all men will come before God.

I have seen you quote Keil & Delitzsch before and would suggest looking at their commentary on it. There are others who agree concerning 'this' passage but I'm just showing I'm not the only one

 

[Allan]

webdog,
... You can demonstrate your twinkle toes until the cows come home but God will not shrug and pass your false teaching off as cute. Pleasedo not claim not to be teaching, yu posted the message and Satan did not make you do it Mr. Wilson.
... I never judged you as a lost man, that is not area, it belongs to God. I compared your publishing style with that of the lost man and still you shoot from the hip, build straw men ad avoid the scriptures like the plague. As for the scriptures being the opinions of men, all I can say is that you need t fall back five yards and punt. (2Tim. 3:16) All scripture is breathed by God.
... Now, about discerning the state of a man's salvation. As a Christian I know, from studying the scriptures, these past 18+ years that a man's spiritual condition is made known by the fruit he or she bears. Sir, your fruit stinks! My best assessment of your spiritual condition from this short encounter does not lead me to believe that I be seated at the wedding table with you, short of repentance on your part.

First, you attitude does not become a brother in Christ and thus makes even your 'fruit' stink my brother.

Second, just because you hold to a certain perspective and find that it works with some scripture does not mean it true concerning the whole of scripture. This is where speaking to each other in kindness and love allows us to prove or reprove each other in the truth. It just might in the very least, cause us to go back and look again at what we believe from another view point to see if what we hold does in fact hold fast.

Third, your rhetoric is rather harsh and ungodly itself and would be benificial to you to tone it down. Web can hold his own and his understanding with respect to his view is not 'from the hip' or what I call 'willy-nilly'. If you want to change his view you need a more solid and in depth presentation than just your statements and small presentation whereby you expect others to just receive it as truth. There isn't enough there in the Op to really make any such change.

Fourth, It is against the Rules of the BB to declare or openly presume a person is unsaved. However, your judgment is poor at best if your short interaction with Web has lead you to believe such about him. His interaction with you is no different in any manner than yours with him. Web is a brother in Christ however he not a false teacher since in scripture you will find that they know they are wrong but do so in order to lead others from the faith. You might actually be meaning falsely or incorrectly teaching something but there are worlds of diffence between the two.

 

[annsni]

th1bill - I agree with Allan that I find your attitude and words here quite bothersome. I'd ask that you pray before you type to be sure that the Spirit is affecting your words and not your own will.

When Jesus was on the cross, He said "Into your hands I commend my spirit" and He died. Where did His spirit go?

 

[Allan]

When Jesus was on the cross, He said "Into your hands I commend my spirit" and He died. Where did His spirit go?

It is a statement easily understood as the equivalent of 'my life/being is in Your hands' or 'the safety of my spirit in your is Your care'.

This reflects David's prophetic statement of God not leaving His soul in sheol.
Sheol or the 'place of the dead' refers to both the physical and spiritual aspects at the same time.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Let's start with this question: In the OT, where did the souls of the dead go when they died?

The place of the dead.

 

[webdog]

webdog,
... You can demonstrate your twinkle toes until the cows come home but God will not shrug and pass your false teaching off as cute. Pleasedo not claim not to be teaching, yu posted the message and Satan did not make you do it Mr. Wilson.
... I never judged you as a lost man, that is not area, it belongs to God. I compared your publishing style with that of the lost man and still you shoot from the hip, build straw men ad avoid the scriptures like the plague. As for the scriptures being the opinions of men, all I can say is that you need t fall back five yards and punt. (2Tim. 3:16) All scripture is breathed by God.
... Now, about discerning the state of a man's salvation. As a Christian I know, from studying the scriptures, these past 18+ years that a man's spiritual condition is made known by the fruit he or she bears. Sir, your fruit stinks! My best assessment of your spiritual condition from this short encounter does not lead me to believe that I be seated at the wedding table with you, short of repentance on your part.

I will not be discussing anything with you until you repent of your self righteous attitude that gives you the right to question my salvation.

 

[Johnv]

I don't wish to take sides, but I must concur. There was, at the very least, an implication of judging one's salvation without merit. That statement should be retracted, and an apology issued.

 

[webdog]

The 'into heaven' for Elijah does not refer necessarily to God's abode known as the third heaven though it 'could' but in the Hebrew there were 3 heavens. One was the sky, one is where the stars are, and the 'third heaven' is the abode of God. Here however I believe it refers to the sky as it is a whirlwind/firy chariot that picks him 'up' and into heaven. If you watch a tornado pick something up and take it into the sky, we would say 'sky' but the Hebrew word is 'heaven'. Since we both understand that context determines how a word is used, and the context here refers to Elishah watching what is happening and describing it in the manner of a 'whirlwind/chariot' going up, the context here is dealing with the sky during the daylight hours. So if Elijah was picked up and leaving our atmosphere he would slowly vanish from sight.

I don't believe the context is the second heaven when we look at why Elijah was taken up in the first place. What would the purpose be in God removing him from Earth to take him into a holding place? It doesn't make any sense. Same with Enoch.

Now here is the problem with them or any OT saints being in third heaven before Christ's death and resurrection. Sin can not enter heaven without immediately being judged. Hebrews in the NT says that the OT sacrifices 'did not take away sin' but only covered it. It is the same as saying a person is covered with sewage but put over it a long clean white robe. It doesn't take away the stench or uncleaness of it only covers it for a time. The other problem here is that the coat is now defiled as well since unclean thing contaminate clean things but never does the clean affect the unclean in the same manner. Therefore though their sins were covered they were not removed and thus they can not and could not enter heaven without having their sins 'removed'. Which is what Christ sacrifice did, it removed the sin completely.

...however, Christ was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. The timing is irrelevant. I think you are looking at it from the standpoint that Heaven is in the realm of time, which I do not believe it is.

Since this is a prophetic statement, they 'will be' in the Kingdom of God 'after' Christ's death and resurrection.

I think that Christ was stressing that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were already there and the prophecy the many will join them there.

Paul's vision was 'after' Christ's ascension not before.

Correct, however here we have a clear passage equating paradise with Heaven. There is no such passage equating paradise with another place besides Heaven.

This again is 'after' Christ's ascension.

...yet he never stated that. For the righteous (all dispensations) to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[tinytim]

The place of the dead for the OT people... Sheol...
Sheol was seperated by 2 compartments.. .Paradise, and Hell. (Fire and punishment)

Luke 16 gives a great look at the two.
Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was a holding tank for the righteous.. those who had faith that God was sending a Messiah...
Hell for the unrighteous...

Paradise and Hell were seperated by a great gulf.. .Luke 16.

When Jesus descended into Paradise, he released the righteous and took them (The first fruits) to the Third Heaven. He moved Paradise to Heaven during his ascension.

Today... Saved go directly to the Third Heaven upon death.. they are present with God.
The Lost go to Hell.. which is still where it was in the OT... but will be delivered up at the Great White throne Judgment, then will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.