Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

[Benjamin]

Pretty feasible breakdown there Tim, IMO; off subject, but may I ask if you have any opinion about the other two parts of Heaven and how they come into to play?

 

[th1bill]

First, you attitude does not become a brother in Christ and thus makes even your 'fruit' stink my brother.

I'm not going to apologize for my opinion that the scriptures are the finale court of arbitration and if that means I smell to you, so be it, I'll just stand over here with God ad believe His word over that of men. As fr the language problem, that can easily be repaired and I see where that might be the case but webdog did and is shooting from the hip, building straw men or another metaphor if you prefer, but he is playing fast and loose with the scriptures. When anyone tells me that the scriptures are just the opinions of men there is trouble i the house!

Second, just because you hold to a certain perspective and find that it works with some scripture does not mean it true concerning the whole of scripture. This is where speaking to each other in kindness and love allows us to prove or reprove each other in the truth. It just might in the very least, cause us to go back and look again at what we believe from another view point to see if what we hold does in fact hold fast.

Wow! When we deal with the scriptures as less than the Word of the Most Holy God we are bound for eternity in Hell, every one of us that do so. I reread the posts of mine and webdog's up to this point and I have been truthful. The truth is not unkind, the your okay, I'm okay theology you seem to be pushing for me to adopt is a lie and a lie harms everyone.

Third, your rhetoric is rather harsh and ungodly itself and would be benificial to you to tone it down. Web can hold his own and his understanding with respect to his view is not 'from the hip' or what I call 'willy-nilly'. If you want to change his view you need a more solid and in depth presentation than just your statements and small presentation whereby you expect others to just receive it as truth. There isn't enough there in the Op to really make any such change.

I did not offer up rhetoric, I offered a very seldom preached truth and supported it with scripture. If you are a moderator here and the forums nature is so liberal as to permit false points of view of the scriptures as acceptable you might want to ban me now. Webdog hit me right off the bat with an idea and I do not follow ideas, thoughts or the teaching of men. I follow God and none other. When I am presented with a man's thoughts and those thoughs have no scriptural bearing I do not just gloss them over, they are published on the web and are there for men and children to be misled by.

As for changing webdog's opinion, I'm not God and he immediately darted off into left field ad sought to pull everyone there with him. I have always been a "seeker" friendly teacher but webdog is not seeking!

Fourth, It is against the Rules of the BB to declare or openly presume a person is unsaved. However, your judgment is poor at best if your short interaction with Web has lead you to believe such about him. His interaction with you is no different in any manner than yours with him. Web is a brother in Christ however he not a false teacher since in scripture you will find that they know they are wrong but do so in order to lead others from the faith. You might actually be meaning falsely or incorrectly teaching something but there are worlds of diffence between the two.

If I must assume that every person here is a member of the Bride of Christ then you do need to boot me! The scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation teach that this is not true.

 

[annsni]

I'm not going to apologize for my opinion that the scriptures are the finale court of arbitration and if that means I smell to you, so be it, I'll just stand over here with God ad believe His word over that of men. As fr the language problem, that can easily be repaired and I see where that might be the case but webdog did and is shooting from the hip, building straw men or another metaphor if you prefer, but he is playing fast and loose with the scriptures. When anyone tells me that the scriptures are just the opinions of men there is trouble i the house!

Wow! When we deal with the scriptures as less than the Word of the Most Holy God we are bound for eternity in Hell, every one of us that do so. I reread the posts of mine and webdog's up to this point and I have been truthful. The truth is not unkind, the your okay, I'm okay theology you seem to be pushing for me to adopt is a lie and a lie harms everyone.


I did not offer up rhetoric, I offered a very seldom preached truth and supported it with scripture. If you are a moderator here and the forums nature is so liberal as to permit false points of view of the scriptures as acceptable you might want to ban me now. Webdog hit me right off the bat with an idea and I do not follow ideas, thoughts or the teaching of men. I follow God and none other. When I am presented with a man's thoughts and those thoughs have no scriptural bearing I do not just gloss them over, they are published on the web and are there for men and children to be misled by.

As for changing webdog's opinion, I'm not God and he immediately darted off into left field ad sought to pull everyone there with him. I have always been a "seeker" friendly teacher but webdog is not seeking!


If I must assume that every person here is a member of the Bride of Christ then you do need to boot me! The scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation teach that this is not true.

You posted your interpretation of the Word of God. Others have posted Scripture with their interpretation. Do you know what the Bible has to say about pride? Maybe a study would be helpful.

You've come here to Baptist Board and have been nothing but arrogant in your posting. It makes for a very sour taste in our mouths and really puts up a barrier to proper dialogue and discussion. Think about it.

 

[annsni]

... We are left with all those Old Testament saints, Moses, Abraham, Israel/Jacob and on and on that looked forward to the coming of Messiah but had not seen Him and could not enter into the presence of God until they had. Matt. 27:52 through v:54 is seldom preached but it is an important passage and it is felt by this lay teacher that it bears on this subject.

Matthew 27:51-54 says:

1And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Where does it say that these bodies that came back to life were Old Testament saints - or that they saw Jesus? I don't see support for that. Yes, they were raised from the dead but they walked into the city and appeared to many - but they did not go out of town to see Jesus.

... It has been and short of the pastors and the men on the mission field that will receive this posting, that these dead people running through the streets of the Holy City are the just released, by Jesus, Old Testament saints. It is taught, in many circles that Jesus descended into Hell for three days but the only place I have ever found that statement is in the Christian Creeds of old and I have, to this point, failed to see the idea supported by scripture.
... So, the short answer to the question, "Are Heaven and Paradise the same place," is no.

I agree that Jesus did not descend into hell but I'm not sure if I agree with you about Heaven and Paradise.

 

[Johnv]

Okay, let's finally put the issue to rest.

This is Heaven:

This is Paradice:

Any questions?

 

[Marcia]

The text given by me in the OP places Jesus, in the spirit, preaching to the Old Testament saints.

That is only one view of that text. It also can mean that the Spirit of Christ was preaching through the OT prophets. This view is supported by the text, especially in context of 1 Peter.

And preached to the spirits in prison. The meaning of this preaching and the spirits to whom he preached are much debated. It is commonly understood to be: (1) Christ’s announcement of his victory over evil to the fallen angels who await judgment for their role in leading the Noahic generation into sin; this proclamation occurred sometime between Christ’s death and ascension; or (2) Christ’s preaching of repentance through Noah to the unrighteous humans, now dead and confined in hell, who lived in the days of Noah. The latter is preferred because of the temporal indications in v. 20a and the wider argument of the book. These verses encourage Christians to stand for righteousness and try to influence their contemporaries for the gospel in spite of the suffering that may come to them. All who identify with them and their Savior will be saved from the coming judgment, just as in Noah’s day.

netbible.org

 

[annsni]

Okay, let's finally put the issue to rest.

This is Heaven:

This is Paradice:

Any questions?

WELL, when you put it that way, I have to agree - heaven and paradise are two different things.

 

[webdog]

As for changing webdog's opinion, I'm not God and he immediately darted off into left field ad sought to pull everyone there with him. I have always been a "seeker" friendly teacher but webdog is not seeking!

The Number One Bill...I'm not a "seeker", I have been saved by grace through faith. The next time you insinuate I am lost, I will be reporting you to the administrator of this site. You are pompous, rude and quite un-Christ like. When has the view of Heaven in relation to Abraham's Bosom or Paradise been an essential component for salvation?

I did not offer up rhetoric, I offered a very seldom preached truth and supported it with scripture.

Hogwash. You offered up ONE view of Paradise using Scripture, as have I for the opposite view. Truth is, to come to your (and those here who hold to that view) position, since Scripture is clearly silent in regards to what you present, the view has to be read between the lines. We have clear Scripture (which I have provided) directly associating Heaven and paradise..there is no such Scripture associating paradise from Heaven. Regardless, it is not "essential" in regards to salvation.

 

[webdog]

That is only one view of that text. It also can mean that the Spirit of Christ was preaching through the OT prophets. This view is supported by the text, especially in context of 1 Peter.



netbible.org

How dare you bring a contrary view to the Number One Bill. You shouldn't speak out against anything he says...you will be lumped in with the lost with me, you false prophet you!

 

[webdog]

Matthew 27:51-54 says:

1And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Where does it say that these bodies that came back to life were Old Testament saints - or that they saw Jesus? I don't see support for that. Yes, they were raised from the dead but they walked into the city and appeared to many - but they did not go out of town to see Jesus.



I agree that Jesus did not descend into hell but I'm not sure if I agree with you about Heaven and Paradise.

Now you've gone and done it...you disagreed with the OP. Be prepared to be labeled a reprobate!

 

[annsni]

Now you've gone and done it...you disagreed with the OP. Be prepared to be labeled a reprobate!

I can take it. I know how to use the report button. I've used it today already.

 

[Johnv]

Welcome to the club. I've been called a reprobate, abostate, and potentate.

 

[Benjamin]

I can take it. I know how to use the report button. I've used it today already.

WHOA!!! Thank for the warning...

 

[th1bill]

You posted your interpretation of the Word of God. Others have posted Scripture with their interpretation. Do you know what the Bible has to say about pride? Maybe a study would be helpful.

You've come here to Baptist Board and have been nothing but arrogant in your posting. It makes for a very sour taste in our mouths and really puts up a barrier to proper dialogue and discussion. Think about it.

... The only place you can charge me with using anyone's interpretation is in the use of the word "hell" and there I did not use my interpretation, I opted for the common usage instead of using Gehenna.
... As for pride, do feel great for stifling the teacher? You are not demonstrating humility here. I gave you what my LORD has given to me for you and you seek to kill the messenger?

 

[th1bill]

Matthew 27:51-54 says:

1And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Where does it say that these bodies that came back to life were Old Testament saints - or that they saw Jesus? I don't see support for that. Yes, they were raised from the dead but they walked into the city and appeared to many - but they did not go out of town to see Jesus.



I agree that Jesus did not descend into hell but I'm not sure if I agree with you about Heaven and Paradise.

I neither expected, demand nor even requested that everyone agree with what I posted. This conversation went south when webdog went extra-Biblical and began spouting his opinion and making his opinion equal to the Holy Scriptures. Now you are trying to kill a dead dog?

 

[th1bill]

That is only one view of that text. It also can mean that the Spirit of Christ was preaching through the OT prophets. This view is supported by the text, especially in context of 1 Peter.



netbible.org

... No argument.

 

[th1bill]

The Number One Bill...I'm not a "seeker", I have been saved by grace through faith. The next time you insinuate I am lost, I will be reporting you to the administrator of this site. You are pompous, rude and quite un-Christ like. When has the view of Heaven in relation to Abraham's Bosom or Paradise been an essential component for salvation?
Hogwash. You offered up ONE view of Paradise using Scripture, as have I for the opposite view. Truth is, to come to your (and those here who hold to that view) position, since Scripture is clearly silent in regards to what you present, the view has to be read between the lines. We have clear Scripture (which I have provided) directly associating Heaven and paradise..there is no such Scripture associating paradise from Heaven. Regardless, it is not "essential" in regards to salvation.

... You have claimed to be a Christian and I never claimed, in any fashion that you were not saved, that is a lie! I said that I did not expect to see you at the Bride's Table and to a studied Christian that places you, at best, at the Guest's Table. The guests are saved but they are only observers at the wedding. (Matt. 22:1-14)
... FYI The screen name is a left over from my days before I took Christ. There is a funny history involved with the screen name and i have kept because the LORD has not moved me to change it and it is a persistent reminder of what God has saved me from. Learning abut a person before you rag them out will profit you much.

[BILL YOU HAVE SAID THIS:

... You have claimed to be a Christian and I never claimed, in any fashion that you were not saved, that is a lie! I said that I did not expect to see you at the Bride's Table and to a studied Christian that places you, at best, at the Guest's Table. The guests are saved but they are only observers at the wedding. (Matt. 22:1-14)

TO STATE THAT A SAVED PERSON WILL NOT BE AT THE WEDDING BUT ONLY AN OBSERVER IS AS GOOD AS SAYING THEY ARE UNSAVED. YOU ARE JUST PLAYING A GAME OF SEMANTICS. IN THE BOOK OF JOB SATAN HAD ACCESS TO GOD AS WELL. YOU WILL DO WISE TO KEEP YOUR REMARKS MORE TACTFUL.

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.]

DHK

 

[webdog]

I neither expected, demand nor even requested that everyone agree with what I posted. This conversation went south when webdog went extra-Biblical and began spouting his opinion and making his opinion equal to the Holy Scriptures. Now you are trying to kill a dead dog?

I'll also expect an apology for the obvious lies as well, as I have NEVER ONCE EVER claimed my opinion is equal to Holy Scripture. For the layman reading this thread, I would think that would be the accusation made against you from what you have said.

 

[OldRegular]

Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The body of Jesus Christ was in the grave, His spirit/soul was with God!

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[OldRegular]

I disagree that Abraham's Bosom was a different place than Heaven...and to answer the OP, if Paradise is a place where Christ is present, there is no separation from God. Paradise / Heaven are one in the same.

I agree webdog.