Are Immunizations unhealthy and sinful?

[Ed Edwards]

This site:
http://www.hrsa.gov/osp/vicp/monthly_stats_post.htm
the US Department of Health and Human Services,
shows some 7,000 petitions of harm from innoculations
filed in the last
20 years. I note that 7,000 is the number of
unborn slain in under two days by the abortionists
of the USofA. This "bad shots" problem pales into
insignificant. If you have a personal problem, check
with the HRSA and have your lawyer file a petition.

As for me and my house, we will fight the abortion-on-demand
industry, not the innocent governmental protectors of our
nation's health.

Compare the 7,000 people that might have been harmed against
the 800,000 spared the ravages of polio alone (which i mentioned
earlier).

 

[Dr. Bob]

Liberty in Christ is a great blessing. Those who desire to follow the route of natural health and those who desire the medical innoculation route can exist side by side.

For me, I present facts and if folks do not agree, that is their right. I will not attack them for this issue.

They can poison and harm their children if they so desire.

 

[Paul33]

Mareese,

You agree with Dina, and argue with me. Yet Dina and I are saying the same thing. Do some research before getting your children immunized. If you still believe that God wants you to immunize your children, then go ahead.

I get a kick out of how you support Dina but disagree with me, WHEN WE ARE SAYING THE SAME THING!

 

[Paul33]

Mareese,

I've referenced several books and internet sites that address this issue. You've sited nothing but irrelevent arguements about buying Q-tips!

It is really difficult to discuss issues when red herrings seem to be the main course.

 

[Paul33]

Ed,

7000 harmful reactions listed does not mean that there were only 7000 harmful reactions. Most don't know that their children were harmed. If a negative reaction doesn't happen almost immediately, it never gets reported.

Ed, you have a really simple and naive understanding about how government agencies work.

I'm going to leave this with Dr. Bob's and Dina's point. We need informed consent, not cheerleaders like Ed.

 

[menageriekeeper]

you have a really simple and naive understanding about how government agencies work

Conspiracy theories anyone???

I have to say this Paul. Not only are my children fully vacinated(decision based on the knowledge that there have been no adverse reactions in our entire family and believing that the benefits outweigh the risks) but myself and my husband are also fully vacinated. Not only that, but we recieved the dreaded samllpox vaccination also.

I'm forty years old and rarely have a cold. When am I going to suffer significantly from the harm done to me as a child, to know that I have suffered harm. How could we possibly trace a problem now back to my vaccinations 40 years ago?

 

[Paul33]

mk,

You've done your best to twist my words and misunderstand my scriptural references. And now you imply that I'm proposing "conspiracy theories."

Really sad.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Show me where I've twisted your words and I'll apologize.....

Till then, I've presented quite a bit of scripture that I've asked your opinion on. Want to give a try at answering them?

 

[mareese]

Originally posted by Paul33:
Mareese,

You agree with Dina, and argue with me. Yet Dina and I are saying the same thing. Do some research before getting your children immunized. If you still believe that God wants you to immunize your children, then go ahead.

I get a kick out of how you support Dina but disagree with me, WHEN WE ARE SAYING THE SAME THING!

That's because Dina isn't working from the base that everyone here is ignorant and making wrong decisions.
You are.
Dina is taken seriously because she presents her argument clearly and logically with respect to the hearers.
You don't.
Dina didn't come out swinging.
You did.
If you want to be successful in discussing this issue rationally, you may want to consider the differences in both of your approaches.

 

[rivers1222]

Dr. Bob writes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Liberty in Christ is a great blessing. Those who desire to follow the route of natural health and those who desire the medical innoculation route can exist side by side.

For me, I present facts and if folks do not agree, that is their right. I will not attack them for this issue.
--------------------------------

Thank you for the reasonable response Dr.
------------------------
Dr. Bob also writes:

They can poison and harm their children if they so desire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm gonna take that as levity and your sence of humor that you are famous for. However, it does kinda sting. I prefer your first quote better.

 

[Paul33]

mk,

No, because they are not germane to the discussion.

 

[Paul33]

mareese,

The nature of starting a thread requires that I present a case.

Where did I say you or anyone else is ignorant. I did say that most people are unaware of the "other side" of the immunization issue. And instead of looking into the issue, I got labeled a "kook," and a conspiracy nut, and now "illogical."

So much for objectivity.

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Show me where I've twisted your words and I'll apologize.....

Till then, I've presented quite a bit of scripture that I've asked your opinion on. Want to give a try at answering them?

Did you not imply that I'm proposing a conspiracy theory just because I questioned government statistics?

Is that not twisting my words? Is that not an attempt to slur at my credibility?

 

[mareese]

Does it make sense to put monkey serum and live viruses directly into the blood stream of our healthy children?

There is alot of debate over whether immunizations even work. There is also concern that vaccines are causing autism, ADD, and other degenerative diseases that occur later in life like arthritis, etc.

The kidneys and liver are designed to filter out impurities in the things we eat and the air we breath, but immunizations by-pass God's design for the human body by putting animal proteins directly into the human circulatory system.

Shouldn't that raise concerns over the legitimacy of vaccines?

For the record, no child must be immunized to attend school. Neither does any adult need to be immunized to work in the health professions. There are waivers and exemptions for people who do not want their children immunized for personal, religious, or health reasons.

As Christians, why are we on the whole not thinking through this issue?

Paul, Paul. Please read your original post again. This certainly does come across as hostile.

Here you are again:

But go ahead, believe what you will. Some of you will research down to the last detail the car you will buy, but without thinking, you inject your kids with poison in violation of God's Word?

Here you are yet again, implying that those who immunize are somehow less intelligent than you are:

How anyone can inject their children with monkey serum and mercury is beyond me, especially when all states allow exemptions and research is inconclusive as to the merits of immunizations. Doctors who know the truth will not let their children be immunized.

And once again, you bash all Christians who immunize with this post:

For Christians to advocate puting "poisons" in their children's blood stream is really apalling, but this is the state of American Christianity. We do everything the secular world tells us to do without doing our own research. Hey, its a hard indictment, but its true. My saying it makes me unpopular and brings out the worst in those who support it.

Yet again, you present your case, which by this time was CLEARLY not about making an informed choice and having the right to base your decision, either way, upon such, as you state was your intention and that you are in agreement with Dina on.

Hey everyone, alleged results aside. Is it right for Christians to put foreign animal proteins directly into their children's blood streams?

I could continue, but believe it's obvious that you've bungled your case and your intentions quite well on your own here.

Also, if you understand that I agree with Dina, and you truly agree with her, why are you disagreeing with me?

I believe you have good intentions, and I salute you for taking a stand.
Once you figure out how to take that stand without offending everyone who doesn't agree with you, and by presenting your stand in a sensible fashion, I'll be even more impressed and can guarantee you'll find more willing ears.

 

[Paul33]

mareese,

I agree that my comments can certainly appear to be condescending, with the exception of the original post.

Of course, in the heat of debate with Ed yanking my chain, I can make statements that are more forceful than they need to be.

So in the spirit of humility, I will confess my sins!

But seriously, you have to admit that simply raising the question of whether we should or should not immunize our children riles up even the nicest people who have immunized their children without thinking it through.

 

[mareese]

Of course it does.
Caring for our children is one of the important tasks mankind has been given. To even vaguely imply that one has failed at that is bound to raise the hair on the back of the necks of mamma and pappa bear.
People do tend to be very trusting of some things where more caution is advisable.

To all:
For those who believe that people are not being fairly informed of the dangers of vaccines, the best way to handle it is not to jump on a few unsuspecting parents.
Here is what you do.
Become informed yourself. Begin informing your friends.
Begin to form a group of concerned citizens in your community. There is power in numbers. Gather your information and make a pamphlet that it forthright, accurate, and to the point. Do not include information that is not needed or that is an attempt to bring harm or speak ill of any group of people.
Begin distributing that literature to target areas in your community.
Even a small group of concerned people can carry this out.
With such easy internet access, you will be able to also carry your information online. You may be able to network with other communities and help them get started.
You will grow. You will accomplish. You will find it much more satisfactory than simply complaining and arguing it with people who mostly don't want to hear it. If someone picks up your literature or purposely clicks on your website you're already half way home.

You may even find that if you act in a decent and respectable manner, your local health department and other agencies may decide to act in cooperation with you and help people become more informed about vaccines, and schools may listen to you when you express concern over students rights to be exempt from the vaccination rules in their handbooks.
If doing something of this nature is not something you wish to spend your time or efforts on, then the fact that others aren't properly informed is not something you have much of a right to complain about.

 

[Thankful]

But seriously, you have to admit that simply raising the question of whether we should or should not immunize our children riles up even the nicest people who have immunized their children without thinking it through.

There you go again making incorrect assumptions.

You can not know this for a fact. You do not seem to understand that there are people who immunize their children and they do think it through and they do study the facts.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

At the height of the polio epidemic in 1952, nearly 60,000 cases with more than 3,000 deaths were reported in the United States alone. However, with widespread vaccination, wild-type polio, or polio occurring through natural infection, was eliminated from the United States by 1979 and the Western hemisphere in 1991.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/polio.html

The origin of smallpox is uncertain, but it is believed to have originated in Africa and then spread to India and China thousands of years ago. The first recorded smallpox epidemic was in 1350 BC during the Egyptian-Hittite war. Smallpox reached Europe between the 5th and 7th centuries and was present in major European cities by the 18th century. Epidemics occurred in the North American colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries. At one time smallpox was a significant disease in every country throughout the world except Australia and a few isolated islands.
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Millions of people died in Europe and Mexico as a result of widespread smallpox epidemics.

The fall of smallpox began with the realization that survivors of the disease were immune for the rest of their lives. This led to the practice of variolation - a process of exposing a healthy person to infected material from a person with smallpox in the hopes of producing a mild disease that provided immunity from further infection. The first written account of variolation describes a Buddhist nun practicing around 1022 to 1063 AD. She would grind up scabs taken from a person infected with smallpox into a powder, and then blow it into the nostrils of a non-immune person. By the 1700's, this method of variolation was common practice in China, India, and Turkey. In the late 1700's European physicians used this and other methods of variolation, but reported "devastating" results in some cases. Overall, 2% to 3% of people who were variolated died of smallpox, but this practice decreased the total number of smallpox fatalities by 10-fold.

http://dermatology.about.com/cs/smallpox/a/smallpoxhx.htm


My mother had smallpox back in the 1920's. This disease has been erradicated by modern medicine.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by rivers1222:
Dr. Bob writes:
They can poison and harm their children if they so desire.
------------------------------------------
I'm gonna take that as levity and your sence of humor that you are famous for.

That's why we use icons/smilies like

or to try to take the bite off and show humor or tongue-in-cheek.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Did you not imply that I'm proposing a conspiracy theory just because I questioned government statistics?

Is that not twisting my words? Is that not an attempt to slur at my credibility?

I sure did. And I will any time someone suggests dishonesty on the part of government agencies without offering a shred of proof.

However that is not a twist of your words. It's and out and out accusation that you believe there is some sort of conspiracy going on that the government is trying to get all of us to poison our children with vaccinations. As far as your credibility goes, show me some evidence that we are "naive" in our ideas of "how government agencies work". Then maybe I'll give you credit for some.

In the spiritual realm we are to test everything. Why doesn't that hold true in the physical realm?

You say this and then expect me not to question you? Either you want a discussion of the issue or you want us to believe you just cause you said it. Sorry Paul, there is only One whom I don't question, you are not him.

Now we have established a few things here. We've established that people should know what they are getting into before vaccinating themselves or their children. We've established that there are some risks involved. We've established that the carriers of the vaccine are/can be poisoness.

The question that remains is are vaccinations sinful? You presented at my request, scripture that you consider to support your position that vaccinations are indeed sinful. I in turn presented scripture that I believe supports my position that a vaccination given with informed consent, is not sinful. Now you tell me that my references aren't germane to the issue?

Get real Paul. You can't call something sinful unless God does. Sin is something HE defines not us.

I haven't twisted or misunderstood anything you have said. Instead I'm trying to draw out on the basis of SCRIPTURE whether or not vaccinations are sinful, just as was asked in the subject line of the question.

What I believe is you simply don't have an answer for my questions and would like to simply brush them aside and continue in you way.

Btw, I'll be around today if you want to show me where I've twisted your words. I'll still apologize if you can.