Are musical styles amoral? Round 2.

[InTheLight]

if a lost person develops a musical style that is used to communicate a message of carnality, this carnality is still retained in the actually sound without the lyrics.

if another person comes along and uses this same style, it will still retain it's original carnal sound and the carnal effects of it, regardless of what words are added to it.

the style communicates a message.

You have not established that a musical style can be "carnal". I'm afraid your statements are nothing but question begging.

 

[Aaron]

You forget: music is nothing without the instrument. Whether it be lips that have to be used, or a drum that must be beat, or a trumpet that must be blown: without the instrument, and the person using it, the notes do not exist.

. . . or the vocal chords, or whether the hearer is himself or another.

But we're not talking about one's organs or machines when we're speaking of music, we're speaking of the communication.

So again, is there a style that could be classified as excessive or riotous?

 

[Don]

. . . or the vocal chords, or whether the hearer is himself or another.

But we're not talking about one's organs or machines when we're speaking of music, we're speaking of the communication.

So again, is there a style that could be classified as excessive or riotous?

And again, you're trying to trap me into a classification, and I refuse to be your pharisee that imposes legalistic do's and don'ts.

 

[Don]

First you apologize and basically do the same thing again, ie. "You are carnal," "You are willingly ignorant and need to repent,..."you need to grow." Maybe it is you who needs to take a hard long look in the mirror.

That was a much better response. I'm glad I decided not to respond with mine. :thumbsup:

 

[Aaron]

Can some be called "solemn?"

 

[Aaron]

How about joyful?

 

[RLBosley]

I would like to apologize for accusing those of having a music position that is Amoral as being fleshly and carnal.

I would like to modify what I said.

If you hold to a position that you believe music is amoral and that genres like Christian Rock/Hip-Hop can be used to bring honor and glory to God and are fit for using to worship God, then either :

1. You need to grow in the area of music and do some honest research and prayer about music, with the intention that no matter what you will do God's will in the area of music, even if that means turning from music that you find pleasing.

2. You are willingly ignorant and need to repent of being willingly ignorant because you are afraid of what you will find out about music.

3. You are carnal and choose to embrace the arguments for music being without morals simply out of a desire to please self and then you mask it as pleasing God, it may be that you are not saved or that you are out of fellowship with God. If this is you then you must repent.

Those who accept and embrace CCM and Christian Rap,etc.. fall underneath one of those 3 categories.

Unreal...

1. You need to grow in the area of music and do some honest research and prayer about music, with the intention that no matter what you will do God's will in the area of music, even if that means turning from music that you find pleasing.

 

[Aaron]

Can some be called "solemn?"

How about joyful?

Psa 92:3 KJV - Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.

Psa 98:6 KJV - With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.

Check . . .

. . . and mate.

 

[Don]

Psa 92:3 KJV - Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.

Psa 98:6 KJV - With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.

Check . . .

. . . and mate.

Who are you mating?

Because first, you need to identify what that joyful noise with the trumpets and cornet is.

 

[InTheLight]

Who are you mating?

Because first, you need to identify what that joyful noise with the trumpets and cornet is.

Obviously it was cool jazz trumpet riffs.

 

[JonC]

I would like to apologize for accusing those of having a music position that is Amoral as being fleshly and carnal.

I would like to modify what I said.

If you hold to a position that you believe music is amoral and that genres like Christian Rock/Hip-Hop can be used to bring honor and glory to God and are fit for using to worship God, then either :

1. You need to grow in the area of music and do some honest research and prayer about music, with the intention that no matter what you will do God's will in the area of music, even if that means turning from music that you find pleasing.

2. You are willingly ignorant and need to repent of being willingly ignorant because you are afraid of what you will find out about music.

3. You are carnal and choose to embrace the arguments for music being without morals simply out of a desire to please self and then you mask it as pleasing God, it may be that you are not saved or that you are out of fellowship with God. If this is you then you must repent.

Those who accept and embrace CCM and Christian Rap,etc.. fall underneath one of those 3 categories.

I am still trying to figure out exactly which type of songs we are speaking of (I know "Christian Rock, Rap, etc", but under the category CCM...this includes a much wider range.). Will you please give me an example of what you mean by songs without rhythm (as melody is good, rhythm is carnal). Can melody exist without rhythm?....or is it just a certain type of rhythm God hates?

 

[corndogggy]

Can melody exist without rhythm?

You can take away all the percussion all you want but at the end of the day, all western music still has rhythm, otherwise it is simply disorganized noise.

....or is it just a certain type of rhythm God hates?

I don't agree with the idea that people are looking for a style of music that God hates. If you read some of the verses, he hates the music because it was being used to worship other gods and whatnot, not because it had a particular instrument.

 

[corndogggy]

If God didn't like drums, he wouldn't have made people in such a way that they think they are cool. :thumbsup:

Next up: God hates '57 chevy's.

 

[corndogggy]

Rock Music and Ragtime were mainly a genre produced to promote carnality, the musical style itself was created and without the words it still sends a message of carnality, The original artists that pioneered these genres were using it for carnality and there's a reason why it fits so well with carnal wicked lyrics, because that's what the style was originally intended for, you cannot divorce the carnal message it sends with just the music, you can try and deny that the music itself sends a carnal message all you want, but that does change the reality that it does.

Let's explore the history of music a bit.

Big band and swing stuff, which we fondly listen to and reminisce about the innocent good old days, was developed in speakeasy's.

Irish folk music was largely developed in taverns.

China went so far as to totally ban all classical music including Bach and Beethoven, for being "decadent".

Pope Clement XI went so far as to ban all opera music.

Some piano chords were even banned, do a search on "the devil's interval".

Even bluegrass was invented as dance music, and many baptists say you shouldn't dance. It's evil you know.

Even some of our most beloved Christmas carols were banned due to being evil. "I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus" was banned by the Catholic church, but going back even further, "O Holy Night" was banned as well, being declared "unfit for church services".

etc., etc., etc.

So, is there anything that God DOESN'T hate if we use the poor judgment of goody-goodies as yourself as the litmus test?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

If God didn't like drums, he wouldn't have made people in such a way that they think they are cool. :thumbsup:

Next up: God hates '57 chevy's.

So if God doesn't like adultery, then he wouldn't make other peoples wives look so attractive either right?

I hope you post was a joke, because that logic is awful.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I am still trying to figure out exactly which type of songs we are speaking of (I know "Christian Rock, Rap, etc", but under the category CCM...this includes a much wider range.). Will you please give me an example of what you mean by songs without rhythm (as melody is good, rhythm is carnal). Can melody exist without rhythm?....or is it just a certain type of rhythm God hates?

Yes, all music has rhythm, but we are not talking about the plain existence of Rhythm, I am talking about when rhythm is the driving force and emphasis of a song and certain rhythmic techniques.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I want to ask forgiveness for judging the motives of my brethren, I do not know any of your hearts. So for that I do sincerely apologize.

I do believe with all my heart that CCM and Christian Rock is worldly though, and in my zeal to defend against this, I have judged the hearts of other people, and I am no judge of the thoughts and intents of others.

 

[Don]

Next topic: country-western and the Gaithers?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Next topic: country-western and the Gaithers?

The Gaithers are ecumenical, I am not a fan at all.

 

[ktn4eg]

The Gaithers are ecumenical, I am not a fan at all.

I'm not much of a Gaither fan myself, but that's just a personal preference of mine---IOW, I wouldn't break off a relationship with another Christian friend simply because he/she happened to like the Gaithers.

Sometimes a person can develop an attitude that unless another person has exactly the same likes and dislikes that he/she does, that no friendly relationships can ever exist between each other. Unfortunately, I've met some people such as this who make such unrealistic demands upon others that they wind up having very few friends at all.

I haven't found any biblical basis for such an attitude as this. Jesus Christ never shunned people merely because they might have differed a little bit on some matter of no real significance.

Jordan, would you please define what exactly you mean by the term "ecumenical." That can mean different things to different people. EXAMPLE: I know of some Baptists who will have nothing to do with other Baptists simply because one of them held a VBS that used materials that wasn't put out by a Baptist organization---therefore they were considered to be "ecumenical."