Are obese men qualified to be pastors?

[Deacon]

Paul is speaking of temperance, or his ability to exercise power or self-control over his body so as not to become disqualified from the ministry. To disqualify himself from ministry he would have to fail at one of the qualifying characteristics, obesity isn’t one of them, gluttony is. Some people are just big. I’ll let God judge whether or not it’s gluttony if it’s not obvious.

 

[Alcott]

This is really interesting. So many Baptists, among others, seem to think that if a man so much as limits his drinking to a glass of champagne on his anniversary, that disqualifies him from being a pastor or deacon. But he can be 100 pounds overweight, and that is no problem.

Incidentally, there seems to be a fantastic need to make obesity some kind of physical abnormality over which we have no control. I don't know for sure that there are no cases where this is true, but I have certainly known people who insist they have "tried" dieting and increased exercise and it "just doesn't work for (them)." But then some, upon having a heart attack, and having been told they must lose weight, have then done it-- though most gain a lot back within a couple of years.

I don't say this having no weight problem of my own-- I do need to lose weight and I know it. But I do not blame my physiolocial system; only myself. In the meantime, that is one of the reasons I would refuse to be a deacon/elder, because I have not lost the weight I need to, which shows a lack of self-control.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
Helen, is selfcontrol a Christian characteristic?

Yes, especially with young people who try to sit in judgment over others.

To answer your question, I would like to see that in a pastor.

Me, too. Along with the other qualities of the fruit of the Spirit. Self-control is actually the last of the qualities mentioned. The first mentioned is love. Paul talks about love in 1 Cor. 13

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

Now let me ask you. You know there are some overweight pastors on this board.

Are you being kind?
Are you avoiding being rude?
Are you concerned with protecting them?

Or are you, by implication if not directly, accusing them of a lack of self-control, gluttony, and whatever else?

Don't you think we all ought to be looking to the Lord to see what sort of men and women HE is asking us to be instead of focusing on each other and being critical? I'm quite sure that the pastors on this board know their own failings quite well. I trust they have all spent a zillion hours on their knees before the Lord regarding getting planks out of their own eyes and developing into the men the Lord would have them be.

Why don't you let the Lord work with them instead of starting threads like this? Who are you helping? What part of the body are you building up or encouraging?

 

[C.S. Murphy]

I may be wrong but I feel that I am the intended victim of this thread. I made the mistake of sharing in the moderators forum recently that I am a 300 pounder. Yes I desperately need to lose atleast 100 pounds and I would appreciate everyone praying for me in that effort. I have always been big, I weighed 160 pounds in the 5th grade and were it not for a succesful football and track career thru highschool I don't know what I would look like now. I too would love to be tall and lean for many reasons, probuly most of all is that if I were lighter maybe I would live longer, be able to do more for my family and my congregation. I have some very serious orthopedic problems that I have had for many years and my body aches constantly. I am not certain as to what Paul meant but when he mentions bearing in my body the marks of the Lord (my paraphrase) I often imagine he is speaking of the aches and pains that he suffered, I don't intend to promote myself to his level but I give everything I have to my church and my body feels it so in short although I am far from perfect I feel that God loves me enough to carry me on to the finish line. Some of my weight is due to stress eating and genetics and some I am sure is due to gluttony so Preach if I am correct that you are talking to me I resemble that remark. If I am in error please add this error to my list of sins and forgive me if possible. If I am not in error please cease from such threads as this one and please post your family photo on Ruthigirls posts as well so atleast everyone here knows that she is your wife. Regardless of right or wrong since you have stated that this really concerns a lack of self control are you sure you are qualified to enter a rock throwing match on that topic on this board?

Murph

 

[ruthigirl]

It is wrong for a over sized person to preach. We are to look our best for Christ. My looks if I can help it should not be a something that the unsaved point at and say, "that is a Christain" I make myself follow Paul's lead of putting my body in submition. I find that people listen to what I have to say a lot more when I have taken the time to look nice. I'm not saying the latest clothes and every thing always perfect, but I am saying looking nice, neat, and not over waight.

 

[timothy 1769]

It is wrong for a over sized person to preach. We are to look our best for Christ. My looks if I can help it should not be a something that the unsaved point at and say, "that is a Christain"

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

 

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
[QB] Helen, is selfcontrol a Christian characteristic?

Sadly, Preach the Word, we have found our pet sins that we can justify. It should be very easy for the folks to answer your question. Aside from the obvious truth that arguments proposing genetic predispositions are never used in poor nations that don't have sufficient food supplies, you've stumbled upon a major problem among Western churches.

The correct answer to your question is that a pastor whose passion for food is greater than his passion for God is a pastor who is simply unqualified.

I think that one of the reasons that some of the folks are unwilling to apply the clear biblical standard to their pastor on this issue is that when they do, they will ultimately be forced to apply the same standard to themselves.

Such is life in 21st century US Christianity.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Helen:
1. Yes, especially with young people who try to sit in judgment over others.

2. Self-control is actually the last of the qualities mentioned. The first mentioned is love. Paul talks about love in 1 Cor. 13

3. Now let me ask you. You know there are some overweight pastors on this board.

4. Or are you, by implication if not directly, accusing them of a lack of self-control, gluttony, and whatever else?

5. Don't you think we all ought to be looking to the Lord to see what sort of men and women HE is asking us to be instead of focusing on each other and being critical?

6. I'm quite sure that the pastors on this board know their own failings quite well.

7. Why don't you let the Lord work with them instead of starting threads like this?

8. Who are you helping? What part of the body are you building up or encouraging?

1. I wasn't aware that discussing the interpretation of a text (see original post) was equivalent to judging.

2. Is selfcontrol less important then? Perhaps the loving thing to do is to prod people to a right understanding of bodily maintenance.

3. Actually, I don't know any. Although I think you think you are being helpful, I think our differences on this might be our approach. Btw, age has nothing to do with it. My training in counseling has come from men of 50+ years of age (who are pastors and theologians).

4. Perhaps that is not their problem. Perhaps it is something else. If that is the case, then careful attention should be given to ensure that a lack of selfcontrol is not the problem.

5. Again, if Paul includes a person's physical appearance in his statement about not being disqualified, it is of utmost importance. Since it is in the Scripture, I can with confidence believe that that is what the Lord would want.

6. Everyone has shortcomings. That isn't the point of this thread though Helen.

7. Why don't I ask you which threads I can and can't start? I have suggested that an interpretive forum be created for such discussions. I have raised an issue here. Why don't you believe that the Lord could use me to help someone think through these issues.

8. Hopefully all who read this thread and search the Scriptures. If I am right, it would be cruel to not discuss it. Since Paul might not have been talking about weight, it is at least worth discussing.

[ March 25, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[Thankful]

Some of the words here are so unkind

If one could just stop eating, then losing weight might be easy. For most people, it is very easy to gain weight, but oh so difficult to lose weight. The older a person gets the more difficult it is to lose weight.

I grew up a very thin child and did not start gaining weight until after I had children. I am not extremely overweight, but I have had to fight it for many years. It is hard.

We know this because there are obese doctors and nurses. If there was an easy way to maintain our weight, then the doctors would be able to do it.

If someone could discover the perfect diet, wouldn't that be wonderful?

To answer the question, yes obese men are qualified to be pastors. Pray for them every day. I am not going to argue this point.

I think this is probably the most unkind thread I have ever read.

 

[Haruo]

In Tonga, when the king dies they have a big contest to see who weighs the most and whoever wins becomes king. (Okay, so I'm oversimplifying the system. Still, the principle is the same.)

But on the other hand, Tonga is a Methodist kingdom, not Baptist.

BTW, for the purposes of this thread, how fat is fat? And what about a pastor who was thin when he was called, but is now obese, and whose ministry shows no sign of slowing down by any of the yardsticks that define a successful pastorate except his exit weight. Should be removed over this issue? Absurd.

How about this: are sinners qualified to be pastors?

Haruo

 

[Helen]

Hey, Murph -- your soul and your spirit are tall and lean! These younger whippersnappers need a few years on them and then they'll wonder why the younger generation doesn't respect THEM! I think it has always been this way.

I want you to know publicly that I have great respect for you and have long recognized in your character through your posts here on BB a character that only Christ can have produced in you. And if He is working on you and in you, I know you will be perfect in the end.

So we just won't worry about the middle for now, OK? (yeah, horrid pun intended)

I'd come listen to you preach anytime. I am quite sure I wouldn't be disappointed.

In the meantime, yes, the extra weight does hurt and I know you must struggle daily due to it. You will certainly be in my prayers and, I think, the prayers of a number of us here. God bless you, sir.

 

[swaimj]

PTW, does the biblical statement "Men look on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart" have any bearing on your position?

 

[10usNE1]

My dad has a saying that I believe applies to this thread....."If you wanted all the answers, you should have asked me when I was 20 because I knew it all then."

Cindy

 

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Thankful:
Some of the words here are so unkind

[\quote]

Thankful, I think that if you see this thread in the light of the question concerning interpretation rather than an open season on the "overweight", you might see that this is not an unkind topic. One of the reasons that God gave us difficult texts was so that we would see our utter desperation and dependance upon him.

If one could just stop eating, then losing weight might be easy. For most people, it is very easy to gain weight, but oh so difficult to lose weight. The older a person gets the more difficult it is to lose weight.

This is true. It is very difficult for many younger men to gain victory over the lusts of the flesh. It is very difficult for folks suffering through a straying spouse to gain victory over self-doubt. It is very difficult for parents of murdered children to gain victory over the desires for vengeance, etc... The key is not that the difficulty exists but how we approach it.

Concerning food, specifically, the way that we eat in the west almost guarantees a tendency toward obesity. This is so logical is almost makes sense: look at how we fatten hogs and cattle. We do so by feeding them a high grain diet (i.e. carbs which turn to sugar with are stored as fat - marbled and very tasty meat). Then look at the latest food pyramid from the USDA: (here's a quote from their web site) "Use the Pyramid to help you eat better every day...the Dietary Guidelines way. Start with plenty of breads, cereals, rice, pasta, vegetables, and fruits. Add 2-3 servings from the milk group and 2-3 servings from the meat group. Remember to go easy on fats, oils, and sweets, the foods in the small tip of the Pyramid." We are being encouraged to fatten ourselves by almost the same dietary structure that we use to fatten our food stock animals.

I grew up a very thin child and did not start gaining weight until after I had children. I am not extremely overweight, but I have had to fight it for many years. It is hard.

Let me guess here: your metabolism began to slow naturally as you grew into full adulthood, yet your diet continued to be heavily imbalanced toward breads, grain, pastas, starchy vegetable, etc... I bet that as you have struggled with your weight, you have tried to reduce the fat in your diet by replacing it with whole grains (for filler) and other complex carbs and low fat meats. And you still have trouble losing weight.

>

We know this because there are obese doctors and nurses. If there was an easy way to maintain our weight, then the doctors would be able to do it.

There are also doctors and nurses who smoke, drink to excess, and are sexually promiscuous. All that this proves is that the flesh is very difficult to master.

BTW, none of us were promised an easy road in the disciplining of the body.

If someone could discover the perfect diet, wouldn't that be wonderful?

Sure. And if someone could invent a pill that would take away all of my fleshly desires to sin, that would be great too. Of course, then, I would need to depend more on the pill than on God.

BTW, there are a number of diets that make your task easier. Check out Atkins, for one (and ask your doctor about it).

To answer the question, yes obese men are qualified to be pastors. Pray for them every day. I am not going to argue this point.

I think the problem here is with both the blanket condemnation AND the blanket pass here. If any brother or sister are obese, one must approach the issue with firm conviction and sincere brotherly love.

I know some 2nd/3rd/4th generation alcoholics. There is some validity to the medical argument about a genetic predisposition here. There are studies that suggest that those who have smoked for a significant period of time have experienced some genetic variation induced by ingesting the industrial chemical produced by tobacco processing. However, I doubt that any of us would take the position that habitual smokers and alcoholic drinkers are to be given a pass because of how difficult it is to discipline their bodies (cravings, desiring, etc...).

The real bottom line is not are men who are unable/unwilling to discipline their bodies properly qualified to shepherd the flock (a very valid question). The real bottom line is how much suffering are we willing to participate in by encouraging the elevation of a passion for God's glory over the weakness of the will concerning earthly appetites.

I think this is probably the most unkind thread I have ever read.

As one who has a great deal of personal experience with this issue, I can assure you that I am not being unkind. You are my sister and I encourage you to continue to struggle.

 

[timothy 1769]

should this guy have been allowed to preach?

 

[HankD]

The worse sins are the ones we ourselves do not commit.

HankD

 

[Thankful]

I find the discussion of self-control very interesting here compared to other threads when self is referred to. Why is self-control all right, but self-esteem isn't etc., etc., etc.,? What happened about relying on God and the scriptures?

While I have not done a search of the scriptures, I am not sure that overweight is a sin. Is lack of self-control a sin? Are we to rely on self?

Eating to excess would be a sin. Loving Food more than God would be a sin, but some people that we may consider overweight do not eat to excess.

Who determines overweight? Who determines what "looks" nice? I have seen some very, very thin people that did not look attractive to me.

The inner self is so important. The love of God will shine through an obese (I dislike that word) person maybe even more than a thin person.

Oh dear, I said I wasn't going to get into this.
Lack of self-control again.

 

[Thankful]

Helen, I agree with your kind words about Murph.

Jonathan, I do not consider your post unkind.

You are correct. I was so thin that I didn't know how to slow down the amount of food until I started gaining weight. Actually as I look back now, I needed to gain at least 20 pounds when I married. I was extremely thin when I was in my 20's and when I was in college, I could not understand the girls that were dieting all the time.

One point, an alcoholic can live without alcoholic beverages. A Person can live without smoking, but a person needs food to live. That is the difference. I always said it would be so easy if one could just not eat.

We must learn to eat to live not live to eat.

 

[Pete]

Now why didn't I spot THIS topic before

Stand aside all you malnourished ministers and let the enormous evangelical in

I'm a 6 footer and at last weigh-in somewhere between 300-350 lb..no idea exactly where. True, that means I'm hyper morbidly mega one foot in the grave and the other in McDonalds ultra hyper (oops I already used that one) obese...

And I found this thread too late in the evening

...to be continued

Pete

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by HankD:
The worse sins are the ones we ourselves do not commit.

HankD

This may be true, Hank, but you know what I have also found? The ones I recognize fastest in others are the ones I have had to deal with myself.

For instance, a person who has never lied will often be the easiest to lie to, because he doesn't suspect a lie. A person who is a gossip recognizes gossip immediately -- probably faster than others. Someone who has been manipulative recognizes it immediately in someone else.

My poor kids didn't get away with much because I had been such a lying, manipulative, sneaky kid growing up. I recognized these things immediately!

What I didn't recognize were things like one son's consistent theft -- because as nasty as I had been, thievery was not in my bag of tricks (except when I was little and wanted money for bubble gum I would get it out of Mom's purse. Then I would leave it out and my sister would find it and take it and leave it on her bureau. My mom would find all this change around, scoop it up, put it in her purse.... ). Nor did I understand at all one son's consistent drive to take apart things! I'm not mechanically inclined (which is the understatement of the year!), and didn't know how to put things like the stereo and the lawnmower back together! He's a car mechanic now, by the way...!

Are the worst sins those we are not guilty of? Perhaps so. We always have excuses for our own.