Are our churches really New Testament Churches...

Churches are never commanded to be accountable to "Caesar", in today's case that would be the Federal/State and local government and/or the IRS.

The commandment to start indigenous, visible local churches comes from a divine mandate from the Lord himself and the rules thereof are clearly detailed in Scripture, NOT IRS publications or corporate laws. There are so many that churches seek the advice of LAWYERS to "set-up" their corporate churches. Primarily to ensure they are a "legal charity".

A 501C3 church disqualifies as a NT church because it is now a "legal fiction" and is under the authority of the government and the IRS.

An unincorporated church has as its head the Lord Jesus, is accountable to the membership and NOT the IRS/government, its SOLE source of practice is the BIBLE and not mans laws/rules/statutes/codes. In short Christ is the leader. I believe in Christian responsibility and accountability to Jesus, his Word and to the brethren (including church leadership), not responsibility and accountability to IRS code and mans laws. I say this in context as a New Testament church as a BODY. Individually in society, sure be law abiding. Taxes are paid by citizens NOT the Lord's Church.

As to the definition of a church - well that is found in Scripture NOT IRS codes, publications and corporate law. Since a New Testament Church doesn't file "official documents" with Caesar or the IRS I fail to see how a New Testament Church could be taxed. If you file for "legal tax exempt status" you are no longer a New Testament church you have now displaced Jesus as Lord over his church and placed in his stead the IRS and Caesar and now MUST follow THEIR rules.

Though the church is made up of people and people are subject to society's laws the FUNCTION and the administration of the Lord's Church is NOT subject to those laws. The Lords Church can not have two masters.

What is God's - His Blood bought Church - is NOT Caesar's unless of course you give it to Caesar by registering with him and seeking his approval. The New Testament local church is NOT Caesar's, but Johnv believes it can be, the martyr's of the past say NO!! No King but King Jesus.

I never said that NT Churches are not subject to the laws of man; they are NOT under the jurisdiction of man's laws. Sure since the formation of the local visible church, man has tried to control the TRUTH and the blood of martyr's is the proof.

Johnv let me ask you is it "right" for missionaries to start "under ground" churches in countries where "Caesar" has outlawed the Gospel and Christian churches? Or how about where a country says to be "legal" you can do that but can't do this. How much authority does "Caesar" have over the Lord's Church? Who is the church accountable to, Caesar or Jesus? You can't have 2 masters there Johnny.

Churches are accountable to the membership. Those in leadership be it an elder run church, or pastor(s), or trustees or deacon/pastor or whatever, they ARE accountable to the membership as a body not any outside government entity. Churches are certainly free to have their books audited by a CPA for example, if done so voluntarily and with approval of the membership but to abide by IRS mandates - forget it, its unbiblical to place ANYONE or ANYTHING over the Lord's Church.

Believers should make sure they are giving to a Bible based, New Testament Church, not whether if it's a "proper 501C3 charity" approved by the IRS as such.

I have provided links and numerous ways a 501C3 not for profit incorporated church is not a New Testament local church. Primarily because there are unbiblical rules, mandates, laws, codes and statutes that an IRS approved 501C3 not for profit corporation must comply with. These laws are becoming more controlling each and every year and are NOT based on the Bible.

 

John

Good point. When the health and safety of the membership is at potential risk - then it is WISE and PRUDENT to follow building codes and fire marshal guidelines concerning exit signs, capacity, extinguishers, sprinklers etc. Handicapped parking is again a prudent thing to have. As to that making the church accountable to "Caesar", I guess some may say it does and a church has no biblical mandate to conform. I am more of the belief that if it is for the well being and safety of the membership or visitors - then fine, follow HEALTH and SAFETY guidelines.

That's why I find it best to initially LEASE a building so the landlord can comply with all the codes and the "straw man" 501C3 Corporation is the "lessor" and the actual New Testament local church simply rents the church from the 501C3 "corporation". The 501C3 is a seperate and disctinct "shell" not for profit corporation -it is NOT the church. The 501C3 corporation will have as its "president" the pastor of the New Testament Church and the "vice-president" an elder or deacon etc. But again it is NOT a church it is a not for profit "Christian" charity that DOES comply to all that Caeser requires, leaving the New Testament free from outside intrusion.

This allows for a New Testament local church to function more easily in the "system" without forfeiting any of their sovereign biblical rights

This is what happens when a "church" "incoporporates" as a 501C3 not for profit "charitable organization"

1) Created by the State (through incorporation)
2) A Creature of the State (because incorporated)
3) Derives its power from the State (by 'articles of incorporation' and corp laws)
4) Considered an ‘organization’ (IRS 501c3 never mentions churches only 'organizations in their 501C3 filings)
5) Receives ‘official’ papers from the State (recorded incorporation documents and Federal tax ID #)
6) Operates more like a business than a church (501 c3 corporate churches MUST LEGALLY have a president, vice-president sec and treasurer -LIKE a BUSINESS, are these Bible offices of a NT church?)
7) Allowed only for “public” worship, not private (this is an IRS ruling)
8) Cannot be political in anyway (NO NO by the IRS)
9) Cannot speak against any issue that is “public policy” (Bob Jones U got slammed for this)
10) Pastors duties defined by the State (IRS publications)
11) Benevolence defined by the State (IRS Publications)
12) Must only conduct business with checks, no cash (IRS rule again, biblical??)
13) Report certain sins to the authorities (no pastor confidentiality with a 501 C3 'church')
14) Structure and organization of church defined by the State (As per corporate laws)
15) Declare ALL religions are equal (see earlier post above)
16) Keep all financial records available for State review (IRS has eyes everywhere)
17) Collect taxes for the State (yep sure do, payroll taxes, SSI, etc.)


Furthermore The Tax-Exemption comes with some strings however. In the landmark U.S. Supreme Court case of Bob Jones University v. United States; the Supreme Court concluded that a Tax-Exempt status amounts to a tax subsidy by the U.S. Government. Since it is a tax subsidy churches must comply with “overriding public policy”. In other words as “public policy” becomes more and more reprobate, churches must agree and accept all these unbiblical and anti-biblical “policies”. For example should same sex marriages ever be legally recognized, IRS approved incorporated churches, which refuse to recognize these “marriages”, will run afoul of this “public policy” requirement.
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TCassidy,

you are 100% correct - as usual I might add - my issue is with churches that do incorporate under 501C3 and the consequences of doing such. there is a difference however between incorporating under 501C3 and being AUTOMATICALLY exempt under 508c1a - since under 508 a church doesn't have to file with the IRS for "approval"

It is filing to seek recognition or approval with the IRS and government that is central to my point. God has annointed the Church - no need to seek additional approval from Caeser.

Sovgrace79 - well someone can sue for virtually any reason, incorporating doesn't prohibit someone from suing you, if they're going to sue, they're going to sue it's that simple.

In the situation I mentioned before there are two disticnt and seperate entities, one is a 501c3 corporation, the other is a church, not affiliated at all.

 

Johnv

I believe the church should be accountable BUT that accountability is NOT to the government or the IRS. It is responsibility to the membership so having a HEALTHY and SAFE environment in which to meet and worship is right, prudent and wise. So complying with BUILDING codes that insure the health and well-being of the people - the citizenry - when assembling together is "being accountable". I have no problem with that, since its (building codes) primary concern is with the BUILDING not the practice, function and administration of the Lord's Church.

An IRS 501C3 incorporated not for profit charitable organization has NOTHING to do with the building and TOTALLY concerned with the function, administration and yes even practice of the Lord's Church and THAT'S what I take issue with. Caesar has NO biblical right or God-given jurisdiction in the function, administration and practice of the church - NONE. As to the building and its safety and what not, fine no problem since it is temporary anyway. The church is NOT the building, it's the PEOPLE and the everyday practice, function and administration of the called-out assembly whose master and King is Jesus Christ, not Caesar.

Johnv you can't have two masters. Also you never did answer these questions:

Is it "right"(biblical) for missionaries to start "under ground" churches in countries where "Caesar" has outlawed the Gospel and Christian churches? Or how about where a country says to be "legal" you can do that but can't do this. How much authority does "Caesar" have over the practice, administration and function of the Lord's Church?

Who is the church accountable to, Caesar or Jesus?

 

Johnv,

I never said a church BUILDIING isn't or can't be subject to building codes, I said the administration, practice and function are not under man's laws unless voluntarily surrendered when you apply for your 501C3 not for profit charitable corporate organization papers, government ID #'s and " governmental recognition".

"accountable to Jesus but subject to Caesar" now isn't that Orwellian double-talk, is that statement or concept found in the Bible in context of a church body and not person as a citizen?

What about when being subject to Caeser violates your accountabilty to Jesus? Then what?

So according to you all the rules, codes, laws and statutes that are REQUIRED being SUBJECT to Caeser regarding the function, practice and administration of the Lord's Church is just fine and dandy, because that makes you feel good because now the church is more "accountable".

Sounds eerily similar to the Hebrews wanting the warmth and comfort of Egypt (the world) when in the wilderness. Sounds as though we (a church body) should seek, yea DESIRE "accountabilty" to the world system. In fact you wouldn't give unless they did.

Do I understand you correctly there John?

 

John,

Please forgive me for my inability to clarify my point, perhaps I will phrase it as a question then.

What part of what is God's - the local church - is rendered to Caesar in regards to its function, practice and administration? Or perhaps reworded differently

Is the function, administration and practice of The Lord's Church subject to Caesar and can you cite Scripture to support it? And

Under what circumstances is the administration, practice and function of the Lord's church to submit to Caesar?

I know a Christian as a citizen is bound by the laws of Caesar but when is the Lords Church bound (subject) to the Caesar in practice, administration and function?

As a follow-up to the missionary question as asked, do you think it was right (biblical) to break the laws of Caesar if it is unlawful to practice biblical Christianity? Would a missionary be unbiblical to establish underground churches where Caesar said NO?

I never said the laws of the land don't apply to the missionary if caught, my point I have been making is in AMERICA the IRS laws don't apply the same to a New Testament local church as they do to a 501C3 not for profit corporate charitable organization. They are diametrically DIFFERNT. One seeks permission and is 100% subject to Caesar and his laws in ALL regards including function, practice and administration and the other isn't.

 

TCassidy,

You can incorporate and NOT be a 501C3 -like a for profit corporation. To be a 501C3 you have to INCORPORATE with the Sec. of State. 501C3 applies to INCORPORATED non-profit charitable organizations. When you file to actually incorporate with the sec. of state AND apply for your tax exempt # with the IRS, the church is now in Caesars radar and accountable to them in practice, administration and function, which a New Testament church should NOT do.

 

Also there is no law REQUIRING a group of born again beleivers covenanting togther as a New Testament Church to incorporate and seek formal recognition with the IRS - it is automatic as TCassidy pointed out, so why do churches do it when there is no law requiring it??