Are our churches really New Testament Churches...

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
To be a 501C3 you have to INCORPORATE with the Sec. of State.

Wrong! 501c3 applies to all churches regardless of corporate status.

501C3 applies to INCORPORATED non-profit charitable organizations.

And to non-incorporated churches and religious related organizations.

When you file to actually incorporate with the sec. of state AND apply for your tax exempt # with the IRS, the church is now in Caesars radar and accountable to them in practice, administration and function, which a New Testament church should NOT do.

Wrong again. When you seek incorporation with the state all you get is incorporation papers. When you file with the IRS for an EIN (Employer Identification Number) all you get is an EIN, and you don't have to be incorporated to get an EIN.

The church is now, always has been, and always will be Christ's. To not pay taxes does not make you a branch of the government. To pay your people a fair salary does not make you a branch of the government.

You have been listening to a bunch of nit wits who have made a business of going into churches and telling them this stuff and making a LOT of money while doing it. These people are parasites, leeches, and false teachers, who lie about what Title 26 says, lie about what state laws regarding incorporation say, and lie about what the bible says about the Lord's churches.

Before passing all those lies along, try doing a little research and you will realize you have been lied to and you are passing those lies along to others.

 

[Gene Hawks]

I tend to agree with IFB Mole, not as a matter of real Law but in modern practice. These regulations you site are just that. As a matter of real Law statutes and reguations cannot contradict the fundamental freedom of speech. This is why the Supreme Court can strike down laws as unconstitutional. As a matter of modern practice, unfortunately We do live in a world where every sppech is protected except Christianity. It's time for Christians to get involved in the public forum. At a time when We are forced to choose Peter put it best, "Brethren We ought to obey God rather than Men"

 

[Gene Hawks]

As to the issue of whether We are New Testement Churches, if We maintain Tax Exempt status. The entire subject is mute. Jesus never sought man's recognition or approval in beginning His Church, and If We be recognized, great let us use "status" to gain a hearing for our message. If they do not recogize us, it does not diminish what Jesus has said, or called us to be.

 

[IFB Mole]

Gene,

Well said brother.

TCassidy,

I haven't been "listening" to leeches and parasites and going to some seminar, I have researched it. Churches incorporating is really a VERY modern occurance, like the second half or the 20th century, prior to that, few, if any, incorporated.

My point is that a church does not have to file ANY government papers AT ALL, once you file you are now squarely in their sites and they have authority to require conformity to mans laws in regards to function, practice and administration of the Lord's Church. An authority they simply are not allowed Scripturally. They get this authority (control) BECAUSE a church files official papers with the Sec of State AND/OR apply for an EIN #. Once you seek "recognition" your surrender control, there is no denying that Me. Cassidy

 

[IFB Mole]

Gene,

Well said brother.

TCassidy,

I haven't been "listening" to leeches and parasites and going to some seminar, I have researched it. Churches incorporating is really a VERY modern occurance, like the second half or the 20th century, prior to that, few, if any, incorporated.

My point is that a church does not have to file ANY government papers AT ALL, once you file you are now squarely in their sites and they have authority to require conformity to mans laws in regards to function, practice and administration of the Lord's Church. An authority they simply are not allowed Scripturally. They get this authority (control) BECAUSE a church files official papers with the Sec of State AND/OR apply for an EIN #. Once you seek "recognition" your surrender control, there is no denying that Mr. Cassidy

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
Churches incorporating is really a VERY modern occurance, like the second half or the 20th century, prior to that, few, if any, incorporated.

I guess the Reformed Church in America is hellbound then. They got their corporation charter in 1628. Aside from the RCC, they are the oldest continually operating denomination in the US.

 

[IFB Mole]

Johnny,

Do I read a tone of antagonism in your post?? (LOL) A church is NOT hellbound if they incorporate with the Sec. of State, I do wonder however The US wasn't even a conutnry in 1628, with whom did the Reformed Church in America get theor "corporate" charter? Was it a 501C3?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
Johnny, Do I read a tone of antagonism in your post??

When I am dealing with someone who goes on for multiple paged with an unscriptural and somewhat pharisaical accusation, as you have, antagonism does tend to creep up from time to time.

The US wasn't even a conutnry in 1628, with whom did the Reformed Church in America get theor "corporate" charter? Was it a 501C3?

Are you doubting me? It's funnly that you're making unfouded statements without backing and with incorrect facts, and then you doubt mine. It's quite funny. However, to answer your question. Go to www.rca.org . I believe they have a section on their history.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
I haven't been "listening" to leeches and parasites and going to some seminar, I have researched it.

Then you haven't done a very good job of research. You still confuse non-taxability under federal statutes with incorporation under states statutes.

Churches incorporating is really a VERY modern occurance, like the second half or the 20th century, prior to that, few, if any, incorporated.

Which, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with the issue.

My point is that a church does not have to file ANY government papers AT ALL, once you file you are now squarely in their sites and they have authority to require conformity to mans laws in regards to function, practice and administration of the Lord's Church.

<sigh> One more time. NO church has to file any papers with the IRS to be considered non-taxable under 501c3. It is automatic for all churches to be considered non-taxable by the IRS under 501c3.

An authority they simply are not allowed Scripturally. They get this authority (control) BECAUSE a church files official papers with the Sec of State AND/OR apply for an EIN #. Once you seek "recognition" your surrender control, there is no denying that Me. Cassidy

You are still confused. First of all the state does not exercise any control over a church in the context of message or ministry. That is forbidden by the US Constitution.

Secondly an EIN is simply an Employer Identification Number. It has nothing to do with 501c3, taxability, or anything else. All it does is allow the IRS (and SSA) to know to whom to credit any taxes withheld. It connects the withholding tax to the taxpayer from whom the tax was withheld by comparing the EIN of the employer to the SSN of the tax payer . And even then, churches are not required to withhold income or FICA taxes if doing so would violate their conscience. All they have to do is inform the IRS that they choose not to withhold taxes.

By the way, your having a SSN is exactly the same thing as a church having an EIN. To say a church should not have an EIN is just as absurd as saying a person should not have a SSN.

Thirdly, you don't "seek recognition." You don't even have to inform the IRS that you are a church, are not taxable, it is automatic. The only thing you have to do is inform the IRS you choose not to withhold taxes. And you can even choose not to do that! If you choose not to tell the IRS you are non-taxable, and choose not to tell you IRS you don't want to withhold income and FICA taxes, then the church is free to do both, as well as pay income taxes on all its income from tithes and offerings. But you must choose one or the other. If you do NOT pay taxes on tithes and offerings, it is because you are non-taxable under 501c3.

That is all there is to the tax issue, which, again, has absolutely nothing at all to do with being incorporated under state laws.

 

[IFB Mole]

I checked the web site and the RCA is one of the founders of the National Council of Churches and World Council of Churches - so they are ecumenical and not Baptist so thier "corporate" status is typical and nothing to "brag" about thats for sure. I suspect they are a bit liberal too considering their "worldly" influences.

You simply believe a church that is a 501C3 not for profit incorporated charitable organization can and is a New Testament Church, citing the ecumenical and non-Baptist RCA is some sort of vindication that it is right.

My facts are not incorrect. Prior to a church filing to incorporate with the Sec of State and file for a EIN# - it is considered non existant until the papers are filed. When you file there are strings attached to the practice, function and administration of the church. That is an undeniable fact. There are things they (the 501C3 church) CAN and CAN NOT do as well as things they MUST do to be "legal".

A church also DOES NOT legally have to file ANY papers with the government or to incorporate - yet 90%+ of them do (there is really no differnce if they are an LLC or an unincorporated association either since offical papers are stil filed)

Filing ANY papers with ANY government agency comes with strings tightly attached

 

[IFB Mole]

TCassidy,

If you don't have to file any papers with the IRS or to incorporate, then why do churches do that? Read what a 501C3 church CAN do, CAN NOT do and MUST do - you say that isn't control?? There are so many rules that a 501C3 incorporated church must adhere to, to be "legal" they seek advise from LAWYERS for crying out loud

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
I checked the web site and the RCA is one of the founders of the National Council of Churches and World Council of Churches - so they are ecumenical...

So if a denomination is a member of the NCA, they're ecuminical? I never thought of Missionary Baptists of Methodists as ecuminical, but hey...

...and not Baptist...

SO if a church isn't Baptist, there's something inhierently suspect with it? I question your objectivity and wisdom on this topic.

...so thier "corporate" status is typical and nothing to "brag" about thats for sure.

You haven't even demonstrated that incorporation excludes a church from being an "NT church".

I suspect they are a bit liberal too considering their "worldly" influences.

Seeing how you've demonstrated a lack of wisdom and knowlege about other churches, and considering that your knowlege and understanding of what constitutes an NT church is grossly perverse, you're by no means in any position to determine if a church is worldy or not.

You simply believe a church that is a 501C3 not for profit incorporated charitable organization can and is a New Testament Church, citing the ecumenical and non-Baptist RCA is some sort of vindication that it is right.

No, I'm citing that you're grossly wrong that incorporation is "new". In fact, you abundantly interchange the terms "501c3 status" and "corporation" as though they are the same thing. I'm also citing that fact that corporate charters for churches are not "new" as you claim, since they have been in existence for long than the US has been a country.

My facts are not incorrect.

You haven't provided any.

Prior to a church filing to incorporate with the Sec of State and file for a EIN# - it is considered non existant until the papers are filed.

That's untrue. Now, it's official. Your facts are officially incorrect. EIN and incorporateion are, in fact, two completely separate things. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of unincorporated businesses that have EIN's. There are likewise numerous churches that are not 501c#, and have EIN's. Your lack of knowlege on the topic is so apparrant, yet you can't see it.
[/QB][/QUOTE]When you file there are strings attached to the practice, function and administration of the church.[/QB][/QUOTE]
When you wipe your behind, there are strings attached (well, maybe not literally). You'll have us use corncobs.

There are things they (the 501C3 church) CAN and CAN NOT do as well as things they MUST do to be "legal".

You have failed completely to demonstrate what a 501c3 cannot do that an unincorporated house of worship can.

A church also DOES NOT legally have to file ANY papers with the government or to incorporate

To be specific, a HOUSE OF WORSHIP does not have to file for a 501c3 status to be considered tax exempt. However, tax exempt status is not guaranteed if a house of worship conducts non-house of worship activities.

Filing ANY papers with ANY government agency comes with strings tightly attached

Again, corncobs. You have failed to demonstrate what thise "strings" are that woule disqualify a church as being an NT church.

 

[TCassidy]

There is so much wrong information in this post I really don't know where to start so I will just take it in order.

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
I checked the web site and the RCA is one of the founders of the National Council of Churches and World Council of Churches - so they are ecumenical and not Baptist so thier "corporate" status is typical and nothing to "brag" about thats for sure. I suspect they are a bit liberal too considering their "worldly" influences.

John posted the fact that the RCA was incorporated over 400 years ago to disprove your incorrect assertion that churches being incorporated was a recent phenomena. He made no claim as to the biblical fidelity of those churches. Your assertion has been disproved.

You simply believe a church that is a 501C3 not for profit incorporated charitable organization can and is a New Testament Church, citing the ecumenical and non-Baptist RCA is some sort of vindication that it is right.

Wrong again. He proved that your assertion of recent origin was wrong. Whether or not a church is incorporated has absolutely nothing at all to do with its fidelity to the bible and to Christ. And, of course, all churches are non-taxable under 501c3 so your rhetoric is again proven to be uninformed and incorrect.

My facts are not incorrect.

Sorry, but, yes they are. Grossly so.

Prior to a church filing to incorporate with the Sec of State and file for a EIN# - it is considered non existant until the papers are filed.

Wrong again. A church need not be incorporated to be acknowledged to exist by the state governments nor by the federal government. Incorporation simply establishes a legal fiction where the church body collectively is considered to be a single person rather than a group of individuals.

When you file there are strings attached to the practice, function and administration of the church.

When you apply to your state for incorporation each state's requirements differ so no blanket statement can be made regarding the functional requirements of incorporation. However, the US Constitution forbids any state from interfering with the practice of any church. That is well establish Constitutional and Case law in reference to the establishment clause in the first amendment.

That is an undeniable fact.

Except that your "facts" are not only deniable, they are simply wrong!

There are things they (the 501C3 church) CAN and CAN NOT do as well as things they MUST do to be "legal".

Nobody is allowed to molest children, so I guess churches are forbidden from doing so also. Nobody is allowed to murder people, so I guess churches are forbidden from doing so also. However, as every church that does not pay taxes on its tithes and offerings is a 501c3 church, then the obvious daily practices of those churches prove the inaccuracy of your statement.

A church also DOES NOT legally have to file ANY papers with the government or to incorporate - yet 90%+ of them do

Wrong again. A church does not have to file for 501c3 status for it is automatic, but a church does have to file incorporation papers with the State Department of Corporation (or Secretary of State's office or whatever it is called in your state) if they choose to be incorporated.

(there is really no differnce if they are an LLC or an unincorporated association either since offical papers are stil filed)

Wrong yet again! An LLC is a "Limited Liability Company." An LLC combines the personal liability protection of a corporation with the tax benefits and simplicity of a partnership. Owners of an LLC are not personally liable for its debts and liabilities, but also have the benefit of being taxed only once on their profits. Such does not apply to churches.

Filing ANY papers with ANY government agency comes with strings tightly attached

If you don't want to protect the members of your church of personal liability for everything the church does, then don't, but also don't spread false information about those who do.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
If you don't have to file any papers with the IRS or to incorporate, then why do churches do that?

Once again you display your inability to comprehend the difference between incorporation and 501c3 status. It is necessary to file for incorporation, but it is not necessary to file for 501c3 status, that is automatic for all churches. Churches that choose to incorporate do so to protect their members from liability for the actions of the church.

Read what a 501C3 church CAN do, CAN NOT do and MUST do - you say that isn't control??

I have read the statute. Have you? Being a church, and not paying taxes on all tithes and offerings, does not mean the government controls the church. The only thing a church must do is act like a church. It cannot act like a PAC, and if it does, it will no longer be considered non-taxable. But even then, some political activity is okay as long as that political activity does not consume more than 5% of the churches resources.

There are so many rules that a 501C3 incorporated church must adhere to, to be "legal" they seek advise from LAWYERS for crying out loud

<sigh>One last time. There is no correlation between being non-taxable under 501c3 and being incorporated in your state. They are entirely different subjects. How many more times do I have to tell you before it sinks in?

As to "501c3 rules" here they are:

1. Pursuit of the following corporate purposes only: Charitable, educational, religious, literary, or scientific purposes.

In other words, a church should do what a church is supposed to do.

2. No distribution of financial gains to directors, officers or members.

In other words the pastor is not allowed to steal all the churches money and use it for himself.

3. Corporate assets may only be distributed to another tax exempt organization upon dissolution of the nonprofit corporation.

In other words, when a church folds, the pastor is not allowed to sell everything and run off with the money.

4. Participation in political campaigns for or against persons running for public office is prohibited.

In other words a church is not a PAC.

5. Substantial engagement in legislative political activities is forbidden.

In other words, a little political speech from the pulpit is okay, but that is not the overall purpose of the church.

Simple, isn't it!

 

[IFB Mole]

Yes there is an ecumenical bent to the liberal World Council of Churches and the National Council of Churches - but that would be a subject of a new thread. They are heading towards apostacy as far as I'm concerned

I am a Baptist proudly and if I wasn't I would be ashamed.

A 1684 "corporate charter" is FAR different than incorporating in 2006. I know there is a difference between incorporating and 501C3. However a church does NOT have to file ANY papers with Sec of State or even get an EIN# for that matter. I am not interchanging 501C3 as incorporation they are two different points, I know that. But there is a 501C3 corporation. Also to be officially recognized (publically and in writing) a church MUST incorporate as a 501C3.

For some strange reason you keep saying I don't understand that the 2 are different - I do.

I wasn't wrong when I said a church does not have to file any papers with the IRS or to incorporate. In other words a church does NOT have to incorporate if they don't want to AND they don't have to file with the IRS. I KNOW IF they want to incorporate they need to file, I said churches don't HAVE to incorporate and if THEY SO CHOOSE to incorporate, there are strings attached.

Churches DO NOT need to incorporate you said it so accurate "Incorporation simply establishes a legal fiction where the church body collectively is considered to be a single person rather than a group of individuals." Yes a LEGAL FICTION it is now squarley placed VOLUNTARILY under the jurisdiction of Caesar -THAT is an issue. Why do that with the Lord's Church??

I find it interesting that "protection" is the standard bioler plate response as to why churches should incorporate - it "protects" us. Now that is delusional for sure. It is a smoke screen.

A New Testament local BAPTIST Church should do what a church is supposed to do as detailed in the BIBLE not IRS publications or mans laws. Jesus said the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against His church so I'll take the promised protection of the Lord over seeking "legal" protection by incorporating

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
But there is a 501C3 corporation. Also to be officially recognized (publically and in writing) a church MUST incorporate as a 501C3.

You keep saying you understand the difference between incorporation and 501c3 status, then you post something like the above that proves you don't.

A church does not have to do anything to be officially recognized. A church can be an association of individuals. It can be a charitable trust. It can be many things without being incorporated and still be officially recognized as a church.

For some strange reason you keep saying I don't understand that the 2 are different - I do.

It is quite obvious you don't.

I wasn't wrong when I said a church does not have to file any papers with the IRS or to incorporate.

Wrong again! In order to incorporate in California a church must files articles of incorporation including bylaws, state the names and addresses of the persons incorporating, the purpose of the corporation, appoint directors and give director information, appoint an agent, file an annual statement of incorporation, and pay a $145 application fee.

In other words a church does NOT have to incorporate if they don't want to AND they don't have to file with the IRS.

Finally you got something right!

I KNOW IF they want to incorporate they need to file, I said churches don't HAVE to incorporate and if THEY SO CHOOSE to incorporate, there are strings attached.

I am glad you have finally learned something!

Churches DO NOT need to incorporate you said it so accurate "Incorporation simply establishes a legal fiction where the church body collectively is considered to be a single person rather than a group of individuals." Yes a LEGAL FICTION it is now squarley placed VOLUNTARILY under the jurisdiction of Caesar -THAT is an issue.

<sigh> No, that is not what incorporation does. Corporation creates an entity that is treated as if it were a single person rather than a group of individuals. I already posted all the requirements of a tax free corporation. Why do you ignore them?

Why do that with the Lord's Church?

One more time! To protect God's people from liability for any actions of the church!

I find it interesting that "protection" is the standard bioler plate response as to why churches should incorporate - it "protects" us. Now that is delusional for sure. It is a smoke screen.

No, it is a fact. If a Sunday School teacher molests a child or a child slips and falls and is injured, in a non-incorporated church the child's parents can not only sue and take all the church property, they can sue all the members and take their homes and other property. Incorporation prevents that.

A New Testament local BAPTIST Church should do what a church is supposed to do as detailed in the BIBLE not IRS publications or mans laws.

In case you failed to notice, churches are full of people and sometimes people do some really horrid things.

Jesus said the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against His church so I'll take the promised protection of the Lord over seeking "legal" protection by incorporating

Tell that to Indianapolis Baptist Temple. Tell it to Harvest Baptist Church. Tell it to Fair Haven Baptist Church. As those unincorporated churches had property seized by the state, either you are lying or Jesus lied. Let me think about it. Who lied? Well, I won't call you a liar, but I know Jesus didn't lie!