Are people Condemned Due To Unbelief, Or That "In Adam" and are sinners?

[preacher4truth]

Know that some have answered that they hold to God doing "hardening" to the jews in times of Christ, to blind them to Gospel so that they would refuse and Gentiles could get grafted in... "Judicial hardening"

Almost like they DO hold to DoG but ONLY in special cases, as in Gospel and times of Christ!
Jesus called those who rejected Him though children of the Devil...

Aren't ALL of us such unless God saves us and brings us into Kingdom of His son Jesus Christ?

What the Gospel does is expose both those who are His, and those who are not His.

And those who are not are already heading to hell, condemned. So were we, but we are rescued/saved.

 

[webdog]

Webdog,

Try to interact with the thread for a change...instead of looking to twist words and accuse those you do not agree with.

read your last 20-30 posts and see if you are giving positive imput to a thread...or just assuming things and looking to be divisive.

If you feel you cannot interact biblically...pass by the thread.
Do not get caught up in your hyper-sensitive world where you see every post related to augustine, or people investigating everyones salvation, or whatever else you are coming up with.

What is your response to the issue in this thread???

my first response to Skans op stands. It has to figure in to the discussion.. If skan wishes to modify , or clarify his post...he can....we are not going to shoot him:thumbsup:

Webdog,,,in addition if you re-read the thread my response to P4T was not intended to question skans state before God...it was meant to answer p4t question to me about God given light in the gospel....stop trying to be a keyboard rambo...and engage in the discussion/debate. Have a nice day my friend.:wavey:

I believe calling out those who constantly question those whose soteriology is not identical to their is quite productive. On a world wide web there are many who read these posts and it is imperative that they understand calvinists do not hold the corner on salvation.

In any given week you call out the salvation of at least one person. It is sickening and for whatever reason is allowed. I was going to reply to the op, but Skandelon already used the very Scripture I was going to use.

 

[webdog]

Wd,
Do not get paranoid on me.

Not paranoid at all. When you quote Scripture highlighting ...
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:"

and

"6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
...as to why we do not follow your soteriology, it's as plain as the nose on your face.

There is no strawman here, nor augustine my friend...just the Apostle Paul

I can play that too... "uh, huh". It's a complete strawman as Skan never even insinuated the person who doesn't here the Gospel is in good standing with God.

This last part is all who have died in Adam......do not re-define it with a webdogism.......just understand and believe it!

I do understand it...one man brought death to all. I don't read in between the lines as is done in iconoclasticism.

 

[preacher4truth]

When one insinuates none are condemned accept by unbelief after hearing the Gospel, by logical end they insinuate said persons, who are not condemned before then, are uncondemned presently.

Instead, man is already condemned right now. This being contrary to skans teachings that say they are condemned for not believing.

Nope. Man is condemned right now, thus we preach. Man lost in sion and headed to hell. For being sinners. Not "for" rejecting Christ. Nor "for" not believing.

Belief and disbelief only expose who are, and who are not, His.

 

[quantumfaith]

When one insinuates none are condemned accept by unbelief after hearing the Gospel, by logical end they insinuate said persons, who are not condemned before then, are uncondemned presently.

Instead, man is already condemned right now. This being contrary to skans teachings that say they are condemned for not believing.

Nope. Man is condemned right now, thus we preach. Man lost in sion and headed to hell. For being sinners. Not "for" rejecting Christ. Nor "for" not believing.

Belief and disbelief only expose who are, and who are not, His.

You MAY be right, but Skan has at least put his position out there and Supported it with scripture and reason.

 

[preacher4truth]

You MAY be right, but Skan has at least put his position out there and Supported it with scripture and reason.

Then those who haven't heard are safe. Cancel all missionaries.

And don't tell anyone...shhhh.

I see you agree with his Scriptural interpretations, yes?

I don't. They are incorrect. Man is lost and condemned right now.

 

[JesusFan]

You MAY be right, but Skan has at least put his position out there and Supported it with scripture and reason.

Do you hold than that all men are not regarded by God as being sinners until they actually either commit sin, or else reject jesus? have to know of jesus, reject, than get judged by God as being guilty sinner?

 

[quantumfaith]

Then those who haven't heard are safe. Cancel all missionaries.

And don't tell anyone...shhhh.

I see you agree with his Scriptural interpretations, yes?

I don't. They are incorrect. Man is lost and condemned right now.

When I agree wholeheartedly there will be no doubt, otherwise you are free to make any assumptions you wish. Still no support for why you disagree with Skan?

 

[preacher4truth]

When I agree wholeheartedly there will be no doubt, otherwise you are free to make any assumptions you wish. Still no support for why you disagree with Skan?

Based upon your knowledge of the Scriptures, and there should be knowledge since you say you teach; are men, condemned and lost right now, who do not know Christ as their Savior, lost sinners, condemned, on way to hell? Condemned already? Yes or no?

Or does man only become such when they don't believe?

If what skan proposes is truth, there is no need to preach. Take it to its absurd end? No one was ever lost and condemned until the Gospel was preached.

No way. Man is already condemned. Too many Scriptures show that man is lost. Romans chapters 1-7 for instance, and the Words of Christ "I am come to seek and save that which is lost." "Is" being present tense.

This isn't an attack upon skan, but a standing up for what is true here.

He happens to be incorrect, and therefore needs to re-think his interpretations, because he has come to the wrong conclusions with them.

This again is the error of "proof-texting."

Imagine missions if this were a correct interpretation. There is no need. Cancel all of them, and shut off all preaching.

To be fair, many haven't thought this through and have hook line and sinker bought into the preaching "Man is lost for rejecting Christ!" Not so. Man is already lost and condemned, thus we preach the Gospel, and for this reason missionaries go forth. After all, Paul himself was a missionary.

 

[JesusFan]

Based upon your knowledge of the Scriptures, and there should be knowledge since you say you teach; are men, condemned and lost right now, who do not know Christ as their Savior, lost sinners, condemned, in way to hell? Condemned already?

Or does man only become such when they don't believe?

If what skan proposes is truth, there is no need to preach. Take it to its absurd end? No one was ever lost and condemned until the Gospel was preached.

No way. Man is already condemned. Too many Scriptures show that man is lost. Romans chapters 1-7 for instance, and the Words of Christ "I am come to seek and save that which is lost." "Is" being present tense.

This isn't an attack upon skan, but a standing up for what is true here.

He happens to be incorrect, and therefore needs to re-think his interpretations, because he has come to the wrong conclusions with them.

This again is the error of "proof-texting."

Imagine missions if this were a correct interpretation. There is no need. Cancel all of them, and shut off all preaching.

To be fair, many haven't thought this through and have hook line and sinker bought into the preaching "Man is lost for rejecting Christ!" Not so. Man is already lost and condemned, thus we preach the Gospel, and for this reason missionaries go forth. After all, Paul himself was a missionary.

think it just shows that we all tend to fail to see to see the depth of human sinfulness and total depravity, as we were really messed up by fall of Adam!

 

[preacher4truth]

think it just shows that we all tend to fail to see to see the depth of human sinfulness and total depravity, as we were really messed up by fall of Adam!

Of course. This interpretation stems from ones view of lost man, and just how lost man is.

Those on the outside who've never heard? Lost. Condemned.

Wasn't that you Jesusfan, before Christ saved you?

If not, what in the world does saved mean????

:thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

Man is already lost, man doesn't become condemned only after hearing and not believing, he is already there.

Yes, man is born lost and thus in his current sinful state on the road to be condemned, but no one is fully condemned until they die and face judgement, as long as they still have an opportunity to believe the gospel their condemnation is NOT sure.

Now, regarding those who have not heard, I think this particular commentary states it very well:

Abraham lived long before Christ. When he told Isaac that God would provide a sacrifice, his words were strikingly prophetic, but he didn’t understand their true significance. He knew nothing about the Lamb of God who would die on a cross nearly 2,000 years later. People like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Job, Melchizedek, Abraham, Sarah, and Jacob never heard the gospel, yet Hebrews 11:13 leaves no doubt that they will be in heaven.

No one in Old Testament times had a clear understanding of the role that Jesus Christ would someday play in atoning for sin. But centuries before the gospel was revealed, the faith of Old Testament believers was already “credited to them as righteousness” ( Genesis 15:6; Psalm 106:31; Galatians 3:6 ).

In Romans 1 Paul teaches "that God has revealed Himself in creation ( Romans 1:18-20 ) and in human conscience ( Romans 2:12-16 ). Paul said that each individual will be judged according to his response to these two revelations of God. To those who respond positively, God gives more knowledge—as He did to the Ethiopian eunuch and the Roman centurion, Cornelius (see Acts 8,10 ). Those who are lost will be judged according to their response to the spiritual light they have received ( Hebrews 4:12-13 )....In the final analysis, we must leave this matter in God’s keeping. He is both just and loving. We can be assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right ( Genesis 18:25 )."

So, why was a man condemned in the OT? Was it because of his sins?

Regarding those in the past Paul said, "God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us."

Jesus said, "God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed."

Clearly God was willing to "pass over the sins previously committed" and thus it was unbelief that condemned the man. The same is true today.

Think about it this way. What is one difference between those who will be in heaven and those who will be in hell? Is it the sin? No, all are sinners, some in heaven will be even "worse" on a scale. The difference is faith. Those in hell are there ultimately because of their unbelief, period.

"Without faith it is impossible to please God."

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, man is born lost and thus in his current sinful state on the road to be condemned, but no one is fully condemned until they die and face judgement, as long as they still have an opportunity to believe the gospel their condemnation is NOT sure.

Now, regarding those who have not heard, I think this particular commentary states it very well:



In Romans 1 Paul teaches "that God has revealed Himself in creation ( Romans 1:18-20 ) and in human conscience ( Romans 2:12-16 ). Paul said that each individual will be judged according to his response to these two revelations of God. To those who respond positively, God gives more knowledge—as He did to the Ethiopian eunuch and the Roman centurion, Cornelius (see Acts 8,10 ). Those who are lost will be judged according to their response to the spiritual light they have received ( Hebrews 4:12-13 )....In the final analysis, we must leave this matter in God’s keeping. He is both just and loving. We can be assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right ( Genesis 18:25 )."

So, why was a man condemned in the OT? Was it because of his sins?

Regarding those in the past Paul said, "God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us."

Jesus said, "God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed."

Clearly God was willing to "pass over the sins previously committed" and thus it was unbelief that condemned the man. The same is true today.

Think about it this way. What is one difference between those who will be in heaven and those who will be in hell? Is it the sin? No, all are sinners, some in heaven will be even "worse" on a scale. The difference is faith. Those in hell are there ultimately because of their unbelief, period.

"Without faith it is impossible to please God."

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Webdog,

I can play that too... "uh, huh". It's a complete strawman as Skan never even insinuated the person who doesn't here the Gospel is in good standing with God.

Webdog...let me try this again.....here is what skan said in post 4
[QUOTEWhat condemn's mankind on the last day? Is it the imputed sin of Adam? NOPE! What does He say? The "very word which I spoke will condemn him." What is that "word?" The gospel truth!
][/QUOTE].

This is error.....

If someone is condemned, he is condemned for his UNBELIEF (Rm 11:23; Heb 3 etc)

Unbelievers are condemned yes...that is true...no one denys that a gospel rejector will be rejected///that was not the issue.

In post 7 he repeats this claim;

Why did they perish? Because Adam sinned? NOPE. "because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."
__________________

All men are born condemned...that is what he is denying ,which is bible 101

several of us have called him on it...saying that if that were so...if people never hear the gospel that they can reject.....They do not need salvation then? If unbelief is the only basis of condemnation...better to not offer the gospel than...because if people hear it and do not believe...then they cannot be condemned.

You have not addressed this issue...just want on a rant. That is why I asked you to interact with the thread....care to?

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Skandelon]

All men are born condemned...that is what he is denying ,which is bible 101

Try again brother.

I affirm that men are born in a condition which will lead to their final condemnation if unchanged, but even Calvinists believe that the elect are born in this same condition. The reason they REMAIN under condemnation is because of unbelief, but no one is FINALLY CONDEMNED until this life ends and they face judgement. The real issue is WHY do some remain in that condition of being "condemned?" UNBELIEF (see John 3:18 again).

I've explained this in the post above, maybe you missed it?

 

[webdog]

several of us have called him on it...saying that if that were so...if people never hear the gospel that they can reject.....They do not need salvation then? If unbelief is the only basis of condemnation...better to not offer the gospel than...because if people hear it and do not believe...then they cannot be condemned.

I've addressed that strawman more times I can count. I will simply point you to Romans 1 so you can douse your strawman with lighter fluid.

Man, you guys really need a new pony

 

[Skandelon]

If anyone is keeping count, I've presented numerous verses to say verbatim the reason that men are condemned.

"they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief!"

"because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

"because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

"very word which I spoke will condemn him."

Can those who think it is the sin of Adam that will condemn them please (1) explain how these verses are being wrongly interpreted, and (2) supply your own verses which explain your position verbatim?

(Note: if you want to discuss the issue of those who never hear the gospel start a new thread because that is a complex issue that would derail this particular subject)

Even those these verses have yet to be answered by the Calvinists here I'll add yet another couple into the mix:

John 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

and

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

I thought Calvinist taught that life comes prior to accepting Christ? This verse clearly teaches that the reason some don't see life is due to their rejection of the Son, not the other way around.

 

[Iconoclast]

Try again brother.

I affirm that men are born in a condition which will lead to their final condemnation if unchanged, but even Calvinists believe that the elect are born in this same condition. The reason they REMAIN under condemnation is because of unbelief, but no one is FINALLY CONDEMNED until this life ends and they face judgement. The real issue is WHY do some remain in that condition of being "condemned?" UNBELIEF (see John 3:18 again).

I've explained this in the post above, maybe you missed it?

I did not miss it.
the point we all questioned was when you say men are not condemned in Adam.....you said it twice in two different posts....

Why did they perish? Because Adam sinned? NOPE

yes.....

Why do they stand condemned already? Because of what Adam did? NOPE

yes....

What condemn's mankind on the last day? Is it the imputed sin of Adam? NOPE

oh yes....and if any have the privilege of hearing the gospel and rejecting that will be additional sin....but all are already condemned.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes, man is born lost and thus in his current sinful state on the road to be condemned, but no one is fully condemned until they die and face judgement, as long as they still have an opportunity to believe the gospel their condemnation is NOT sure.

Now, regarding those who have not heard, I think this particular commentary states it very well:



In Romans 1 Paul teaches "that God has revealed Himself in creation ( Romans 1:18-20 ) and in human conscience ( Romans 2:12-16 ). Paul said that each individual will be judged according to his response to these two revelations of God. To those who respond positively, God gives more knowledge—as He did to the Ethiopian eunuch and the Roman centurion, Cornelius (see Acts 8,10 ). Those who are lost will be judged according to their response to the spiritual light they have received ( Hebrews 4:12-13 )....In the final analysis, we must leave this matter in God’s keeping. He is both just and loving. We can be assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right ( Genesis 18:25 )."

So, why was a man condemned in the OT? Was it because of his sins?

Regarding those in the past Paul said, "God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us."

Jesus said, "God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed."

Clearly God was willing to "pass over the sins previously committed" and thus it was unbelief that condemned the man. The same is true today.

Think about it this way. What is one difference between those who will be in heaven and those who will be in hell? Is it the sin? No, all are sinners, some in heaven will be even "worse" on a scale. The difference is faith. Those in hell are there ultimately because of their unbelief, period.

"Without faith it is impossible to please God."

Sounds so nice! Unless one sees th many errors this is strung together with.

I'll give my rebuttal to this in a bit, busy day.

I see you hold to "God winked at sin theory", right?

So many Scriptures taken out context to support your fallacy.

 

[preacher4truth]

I did not miss it.
the point we all questioned was when you say men are not condemned in Adam.....you said it twice in two different posts....


yes.....

yes....



oh yes....and if any have the privilege of hearing the gospel and rejecting that will be additional sin....but all are already condemned.

Good consise short answers bro. Now, if you'll look at the initial rebuttal up above where he quotes a "commentator" (which really doesn't have a thing to do with this subject nor does it support his theory) and the actual Scriptures he uses, take special note of them and what he is making them say.

- Peace