Are people Condemned Due To Unbelief, Or That "In Adam" and are sinners?

[quantumfaith]

Sounds so nice! Unless one sees th many errors this is strung together with.

I'll give my rebuttal to this in a bit, busy day.

I see you hold to "God winked at sin theory", right?

So many Scriptures taken out context to support your fallacy.

Would you PLEASE be intellectually honest and cordial. NNE has said, implied, inferred, hinted at, suggested..... "God winked at sin". Please stop being intentionally disengenous.

 

[preacher4truth]

I've addressed that strawman more times I can count. I will simply point you to Romans 1 so you can douse your strawman with lighter fluid.

Man, you guys really need a new pony

You as well as others interpret a section of Romans 1 to be salvific, which, uh, guess what? It's not. Why? It's proving the world lost, not that they should be saved by that knowledge. Talk about taking passages way out of context. But this is how you arrive at your errors.

Fact is, in your theory man is safe. It's utter fallacy and totally erroneoous to preach this.

:wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

Would you PLEASE be intellectually honest and cordial. NNE has said, implied, inferred, hinted at, suggested..... "God winked at sin". Please stop being intentionally disengenous.

No need for your caustic spirit qaf. OK? You're incorrect even though you caps lock NNE.

Uh, "God overlooked sin" did you happen to see that when you hastily replied to me with fervor while remaining uninformed?

As a preacher, I know what is implied here. That's exactly what he means.

How that crow taste?

Oh, by the way, God doesn't overlook sin. This is a misnomer and an interpretational error.

 

[webdog]

Would you PLEASE be intellectually honest and cordial. NNE has said, implied, inferred, hinted at, suggested..... "God winked at sin". Please stop being intentionally disengenous.

Ignore ignorance

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Skan says:

"The real issue is WHY do some remain in that condition of being "condemned?" UNBELIEF (see John 3:18 again)."

How can that be the real issue? In a sin state, nobody believes & all are damned. The real issue is why are some selected for salvation while others aren't. And we can debate that till the cows come home.....Because thats how God planned it (and he did not consult with us).

Personally I dont get flustered about what I can't control. Now if you want to change the whole construct of Orthodox Christianity then have at it.

 

[quantumfaith]

Ignore ignorance

It is just so difficult. My 25 year career is about just that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is just so difficult. My 25 year career is about just that.

Huh.... I must be missing something....you didnt say you ignore ignorance did you?

 

[Skandelon]

I did not miss it.
the point we all questioned was when you say men are not condemned in Adam.....you said it twice in two different posts....

Actually I said they aren't condemned (meaning going to hell -- or "finally condemned") BECAUSE of Adam's fall. They perish BECAUSE they refused to believe God's revelation, period. How many verses do I need to produce that say that very thing verbatim before you would believe it? I've got a few more, but I really thought 5 would be sufficient.

 

[Skandelon]

I see you hold to "God winked at sin theory", right?

Ok, that's it. We're done. Let me know when you want to have an adult conversation.

 

[Skandelon]

Skan says:

"The real issue is WHY do some remain in that condition of being "condemned?" UNBELIEF (see John 3:18 again)."

How can that be the real issue? In a sin state, nobody believes & all are damned.

First, you are committing the fallacy of question begging by presuming true a subject up for debate.

Second, you argument presumes God's powerful life giving gospel isn't sufficient to accomplish the purpose for which it was sent....to make an appeal for God's enemies to be reconciled to him. It makes little since to presume that God must essentially reconcile them (make them a new creature/regenerate them) in order for them to accept God's appeal to be reconciled. That is something you read into the text.

The real issue is why are some selected for salvation while others aren't.

No it not. Calvinists typically claim its for God's own secret purposes that he selects one over another. The bible says he calls (invites) everyone, but chooses those who are dressed in the wedding garments (representative of being clothed in Christ through faith) to enter the wedding feast. "Many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[Skandelon]

Would you PLEASE be intellectually honest and cordial. NNE has said, implied, inferred, hinted at, suggested..... "God winked at sin". Please stop being intentionally disengenous.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

It's interesting how he had such a problem to a DIRECT quote from Paul. I didn't say "God passed over the sins previously committed," Paul did. And I wonder if he thinks God sending his Son to atone even for that sin previously committed was just a "wink?" Shameless.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, man is born lost and thus in his current sinful state on the road to be condemned, but no one is fully condemned until they die and face judgement, as long as they still have an opportunity to believe the gospel their condemnation is NOT sure.

Now, regarding those who have not heard, I think this particular commentary states it very well:



In Romans 1 Paul teaches "that God has revealed Himself in creation ( Romans 1:18-20 ) and in human conscience ( Romans 2:12-16 ). Paul said that each individual will be judged according to his response to these two revelations of God. To those who respond positively, God gives more knowledge—as He did to the Ethiopian eunuch and the Roman centurion, Cornelius (see Acts 8,10 ). Those who are lost will be judged according to their response to the spiritual light they have received ( Hebrews 4:12-13 )....In the final analysis, we must leave this matter in God’s keeping. He is both just and loving. We can be assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right ( Genesis 18:25 )."

So, why was a man condemned in the OT? Was it because of his sins?

Regarding those in the past Paul said, "God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us."

Jesus said, "God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed."

Clearly God was willing to "pass over the sins previously committed" and thus it was unbelief that condemned the man. The same is true today.

Think about it this way. What is one difference between those who will be in heaven and those who will be in hell? Is it the sin? No, all are sinners, some in heaven will be even "worse" on a scale. The difference is faith. Those in hell are there ultimately because of their unbelief, period.

"Without faith it is impossible to please God."

Think that you omitted here the final point that Apostle paul made in regards to this...

That IN THE PAST God overlooked commited sins, but NOW all are guilty and condemned by God, and must have Jesus preached to them!

God has ALL of us as being found "In Adam" gulity of sinning against God...


ALL of us born 'children of the Devil" in sin ,natures who sin...

Condemned until God Applies His Grace towards us, and redeems us back in the Beloved!

 

[quantumfaith]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

It's interesting how he had such a problem to a DIRECT quote from Paul. I didn't say "God passed over the sins previously committed," Paul did. And I wonder if he thinks God sending his Son to atone even for that sin previously committed was just a "wink?" Shameless.

What I "hope" the issue is, that he just simply gets so passionate about something, that his enthusiasm to respnd simply gets the better of him preventing himself from anlaysis and proper consideration of someone's posting (position).

 

[glfredrick]

I thought Calvinist taught that life comes prior to accepting Christ? This verse clearly teaches that the reason some don't see life is due to their rejection of the Son, not the other way around.

Your theology professor would revoke your degree if he saw that you posted this clearly worded bit of horse hooey...

Shame on you. You continually claim to know better, then resort to the gutter and strawman arguments to further your cause.

 

[InTheLight]

Well?

What will be the basis of their condemnation before God?

Both. We have the potential for condemnation because of Adam's sin. We can be redeemed and avoid final condemnation by believing in the Son of God.

No Adamic sin, no condemnation, no need for Christ to be sent to save us from condemnation by believeing on Him.

The OP question is not valid; it's not either/or, it's for/then. For Adam sinned, then we are condemned by unbelief.

 

[quantumfaith]

Both. We have the potential for condemnation because of Adam's sin. We can be redeemed and avoid final condemnation by believing in the Son of God.

No Adamic sin, no condemnation, no need for Christ to be sent to save us from condemnation by believeing on Him.

The OP question is not valid; it's not either/or, it's for/then. For Adam sinned, then we are condemned by unbelief.

Kudos, that is a solid argument, and quite logical. Thanks INTHELIGHT.

 

[JesusFan]

Both. We have the potential for condemnation because of Adam's sin. We can be redeemed and avoid final condemnation by believing in the Son of God.

No Adamic sin, no condemnation, no need for Christ to be sent to save us from condemnation by believeing on Him.

The OP question is not valid; it's not either/or, it's for/then. For Adam sinned, then we are condemned by unbelief.

per the Bible...

ALL have sinned, fallen short of the glory of God...

In Adam all men died(spiritually) In Chrsit shall all men be made alive again

God clearly sees us reprobate on arrival, and condemned regardless if reject jesus, as that rejection makes it "permanent"

 

[JesusFan]

Kudos, that is a solid argument, and quite logical. Thanks INTHELIGHT.

perhaps logical, but not strictly biblical!

 

[InTheLight]

perhaps logical, but not strictly biblical!

Then please point out the error of my statement.

 

[JesusFan]

Then please point out the error of my statement.

All men stand condemned by God at their physical births, as they are seen by God as being "In Adam"
rejecting Jesus will be the "finishing" act of this condemnation, but we are both those with sin natures who chose to Sin...

If person dies, their sin nature already has them condemned by Holy God, apart from rejecting Jesus...

IF that is what you said, forgive me, misunderstood you!