Are some Baptists "historic revisionists " ?

[lakeside]

SEVENTEENTH CENTURY

BAPTISTS: Founded by John Smith, at one time pastor of a church at Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, England, that had separated from the Church of England. About 1606, to escape persecution, he and his flock emigrated to Amsterdam. Smith died in 1612.

Taught only baptism of immersion t be valid; predestination; denied free-will; good works ;purgatory; the Sacraments, and the forgiveness of sin.

JANSENISTS: Cornelius Jansenius was born Oct. 28, 1585, of a Catholic family in the village of Accoi (near Leerdam), Holland. He made most of his studies at Louvain, and later occupied the chair of exegesis at the same institution of learning, where he acquired considerable renown. In 1635 he was appointed Bishop of Ypres. He lived and died a member of the Catholic Church, but it was from his writings, published after his death, that Jansenism took its rise. The Jansenists deny free-will and the possiblity of resisting grace.

UNIVERSALISTS: The earliest exponent of the doctrine of Universalism was probably Samuel Gorton, a New England mystic, who aired his views as early as 1636. The belief did not receive definite organization, however until 1750, when James Relly organized a Universalist church in London, to which he ministered until his death, some thirty years later.

They deny the divinity of Christ; believe in the universal salvation of all; deny the Sacraments; free-will; good works, and the doctrine of the Trinity.

MUFFLETONIANS: John Reeve (1608-1658) and Lodowicke Muggleton (1609-1698), obscure journeymen tailors, who claimed to have the spirit of prophecy, propagated their views in London about the year 1651, and launched this sect. They denied the Trinity; claimed the devil became incarnate in Eve, and humanized the Deity.

QUAKERS: Started by George Fox, the son of a well-to-do weaver, born at Fenny Drayton, in Leicestershire, England, in July, 1624. He was apprenticed to a shoe-maker at an early age and received very little education. Disgusted with the vanity of the world, he cut himself off from it, brooded for years, and while in this melancholy state conceived the imaginings of his own distorted mind to be new revelations, which he began to preach in 1647.

He believed every man to have an "inner light" which was his only guide; rejected almost everything external in religion; condemned oaths, art, music, the drama, the bearing of arms, etc.


EIGHTEENTH CENTURY

MORAVIANS: Organized by Nikolaus Ludwig, Count von Zinaindorn (1700-1760). Born at Dresden, he was a very pious and religious man. An ordained minister in the Lutheran Church, he purchased and estate in Berthelsdorf, Germany and built up a quietistic community. Later he began travelling about establishing communities and instilling into them old Moravian doctrines.

The Moravians consider the Scriptures the only rule of faith shun discussion on the Trinity, the Fall, Original Sin, although they admit these doctrines; hold a doctrine of "Total Depravity", and admit only two sacraments.

METHODISTS: Founded by John Wesley, who was born at Epworth, Lincolnshire, England, June 17, 1703. He was ordained a clergyman of the Anglican Church in 1728, and in 1736, when he visited Savannah in Georgia, came into contact with Moravian doctrines. He organized the first Methodist Society in 1739. Shortly after he left the Anglican Communion and organized his own church.

The Methodist doctrine is borrowed from the Anglicans and Calvanists. They hold Scripture to be the sole and sufficient rule of belief and practice; teach justification by faith alone, although the practice of good works is commended; condemn works of supererogation; admit only two sacraments; condemn the invocation of the Saints and the veneration of sacred images and relics; and deny purgatory.

SHAKERS : Jane Wardley, with the help of her brother James, organized this sect in England in the year 1747. Later they were joined by Ann Lee, of Manchester, who claimed to be Christ in His second reincarnation. She came to America in 1774.

They deny Christ in worship and substitute in His place "The Highest Good, wherever it may be found:" esteem virginity; confess sins to an elder of the same sex and before a witness; believe in a continuous revelation; practice communism, but exclude married people.

SWEDENBORGIANS: Disciples of Emmanuel Swedenborg, who was born at Stockholm, Jan. 29, 1688. Up to 1745 he was an engineer, skilled in mathematics and the physical sciences. Then he became a theological writer. He was endowed with extraordinary talents, and claimed to have received new revelations from God He died in London, March 29,1772.

The Swedenborgians hold that as the Christian religion succeeded the Jewish, so the Swedenborgian supplements the Christian; deny the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity; deny original sins; reject monasticism; deny the resurrection of the body; and claim the Last Judgment was held in 1757 in Swedenborg’s presence; believe angels and devils to be former members of the human race.

MICHAELIANS: Organized by John M. Hahn, a Swabian Theosophist, who was born at Altdorf in 1758, had "visions" at 17, 20 and 22 years of age, and then began to proclaim his beliefs. He died in 1819.

He taught a double fall of man: that the work of Christ is not merely for, but within man; denied hell, and believed in the final salvation of all


NINETEENTH CENTURY

GERMAN REFORMED: Reformed churches in general are those that began with the doctrine of Luther, then embraced those of Zwingli, and finally swerved towards Calvinism. As a result they are infected with the errors of all these false teachers.

DISCIPLES OF CHRIST: Sometimes called "Campbellites" after Thomas Campbell, of Bethany, Va., who with his son, Alexander, was their founder in 1809. He had been a Presbyterian and then a Baptist before starting his own sect. He taught that the Bible was the only rule of faith; that the Old Testament was binding only on the Jews; and denied the Eucharist.Campbell's son, Alexander, took up his father's work and became a leader in religious reform and a champion of popular democracy. In the 1820s he began an association with a like-minded reformer named Barton Stone. In 1832 the movements associated with these two men merged to form what they called the Christian Church(Disciples of Christ).

TRUE REFORMED DUTCH: Organized by Sol Froeligh, a Dutch clergyman, who led a secession movement in the Reformed Dutch Church in 1822. He held that the Reformed Dutch Church had become erroneous in doctrine, corrupt in practice, and lax in discipline. During recent years the sect has almost died out.

HICKSITES: Founded by Elias Hicks (1748-1830), and American minister of the Society of Friends (Quakers), who became leader of a faction in the Society in 1817, and broke away from the main body in 1828. He denied the divinity of Christ, the Atonement, and the Trinity.

MORMONS: Organized by Joseph Smith, the son of a Vermont farmer, and born in that State Dec. 23, 1805. He claimed to have received a new revelation in 1827, which resulted in the "Book of Mormon", published at Palmyra, N.Y., in March 1830. Smith was killed by a mob in Carthage, Ill., on June 27, 1844, and Brigham Young succeeded him as leader of the sect.

The Mormons have a wrong conception of the fall of man, apparently holding Adam’s sin to have been one of lust; believe God endowed with a body of flesh and bone; hold matter to have existed spiritually before creation; the bond of marriage to be eternal; and believe in a happy Millennium on this earth.

 

[lakeside]

NINETEENTH CENTURY

GERMAN REFORMED: Reformed churches in general are those that began with the doctrine of Luther, then embraced those of Zwingli, and finally swerved towards Calvinism. As a result they are infected with the errors of all these false teachers.

DISCIPLES OF CHRIST: Sometimes called "Campbellites" after Thomas Campbell, of Bethany, Va., who with his son, Alexander, was their founder in 1809. He had been a Presbyterian and then a Baptist before starting his own sect. He taught that the Bible was the only rule of faith; that the Old Testament was binding only on the Jews; and denied the Eucharist.Campbell's son, Alexander, took up his father's work and became a leader in religious reform and a champion of popular democracy. In the 1820s he began an association with a like-minded reformer named Barton Stone. In 1832 the movements associated with these two men merged to form what they called the Christian Church(Disciples of Christ).

TRUE REFORMED DUTCH: Organized by Sol Froeligh, a Dutch clergyman, who led a secession movement in the Reformed Dutch Church in 1822. He held that the Reformed Dutch Church had become erroneous in doctrine, corrupt in practice, and lax in discipline. During recent years the sect has almost died out.

HICKSITES: Founded by Elias Hicks (1748-1830), and American minister of the Society of Friends (Quakers), who became leader of a faction in the Society in 1817, and broke away from the main body in 1828. He denied the divinity of Christ, the Atonement, and the Trinity.

MORMONS: Organized by Joseph Smith, the son of a Vermont farmer, and born in that State Dec. 23, 1805. He claimed to have received a new revelation in 1827, which resulted in the "Book of Mormon", published at Palmyra, N.Y., in March 1830. Smith was killed by a mob in Carthage, Ill., on June 27, 1844, and Brigham Young succeeded him as leader of the sect.

The Mormons have a wrong conception of the fall of man, apparently holding Adam’s sin to have been one of lust; believe God endowed with a body of flesh and bone; hold matter to have existed spiritually before creation; the bond of marriage to be eternal; and believe in a happy Millennium on this earth.

CATHOLIC APOSTOLICAL CHURCH: Sometimes called Irvingites after their founder, Edward Irving, and eloquent and distinguished Scottish clergyman, born in 1792. At one time he was a Presbyterian minister, but being accused of heresy, was ejected from the church. He died a Glasgow in 1834, the sect bearing his name having been formed in 1831.

The Irvingites repudiate the doctrine os Transubstantiation; hold that by a new out-pouring of God through the Holy Ghost the prophetic and apostolic offices have been re-established.

PERFECTIONISTS: Founded by John H. Noyes, who was born at Brattleboro, Vt. in 1811. At one time he was a Congregationalist minister, but organized his own sect in 1845. Being forced to flee to Canada to escape prosecution on account of his marriage system, he died there in 1886. He taught equality of the sexes and community of goods.

ADVENTISTS: Members of a number of related Protestant denominations that stress the doctrine of the imminent second coming of Christ. Adventism received its clearest definition and most earnest support under the leadership of an American Baptist preacher, William Miller. Miller and his followers, known initially as Millerites, proclaimed that the second coming would occur between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844. The failure of this prediction was called the First Disappointment, and many left the movement. Following this, a second date—Oct. 22, 1844—was set, and many Adventists disposed of their property in anticipation of the event. The movement was widely ridiculed after the day passed uneventfully. Thereafter many Adventists lost faith and returned to their former churches. Those remaining split into four main bodies, which still continue to flourish: Seventh-day Adventists

SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS:By far the largest group of Adventists is the Seventh-day Adventists, with more than 3.3 million members worldwide in 1980. The church originated between 1844 and 1855 under the leadership of three American Millerites, Joseph Bates (1792–1872) and James (1821–81) and Ellen White (1827–1915), but was not formally organized until 1863. Two tenets are prominent in the church’s theology: belief in the visible, personal second coming of Christ at an early but indefinite date and the observance of Saturday as the Sabbath. Members accept the Bible as their sole religious authority, placing special trust in the literal interpretation of prophetic passages. They hold that grace alone is sufficient for salvation; they administer baptism by immersion and practice foot washing in connection with observance of the Lord’s Supper.

SALVATION ARMY: Organized by William Booth (1829-1912), born in Nottingham, England. At first a Methodist evangelist, in 1865 he organized a quasi-military society to promote a revival of religion among the masses. The Salvation Army is evangelic a in doctrine and aims to harmonize with all churches.

CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS: The popular name of the "Church of Christ, Scientist", which was founded in 1876 at Boston, Mass., by the late Mrs. Mary Baker Glover Patterson Eddy.

The great hobby of the idea that there is really such a thing as matter sickness, sin, and the consequences of the same; they deny the Blessed Trinity; the divinity of Christ; the creation of man; the maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary; the future resurrection of all men as well as the Resurrection of Christ; they brand original sin, death and hell as delusions; and consider angels to be, not spirits, but only divine messages.

OLD CATHOLICS: The sect organized in German speaking countries to combat the dogma of Papal Infallibility. Its rise may be traced from the excommunication of Ignatz von Dollinger, historian, priest and theologian, on Apr. 18, 1871, for refusing to accept the dogma of Infallibility. They deny the Infallibility of the Pope.

MODERNISTS: An heretical movement of modern times that attempted to explain the faith by rationalizing it. The errors of this attempt were condemned by Pope Pius X. The system of the Modernists embraces the errors of all preceding heresies.

DOWIEITES: Followers of John Alexander Dowie, who was born in Edinburgh in 1847. At one time he was an ordained clergyman of the Congregationalist denomination in South Australia. In 1882 he established an independent tabernacle in Melbourne, and took up faith healing. He came to the United States in 1888, and in 1896 organized a "church", which, in 1906, suspended him for fraud, tyranny and polygamous tendencies. He was evidently insane when he died in 1907.

Dowieites deny the efficacy of Baptism as well as its necessity; believe that it is sinful to have recourse to a physician in time of sickness, relying on faith-cures; they deny the authority of the Catholic Church to teach the doctrine of Christ.

JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES: Founded in 1872 by Charles Taze Russell, Former Congregationalist. Succeeded by Judge Rutherford, a Missouri lawyer in 1916. The witnesses deny the Doctrine of the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ, and the Immortality of the Human Soul. Satan is Master on Earth, where he organized the visible part of his empire by founding churches, the great capitalistic organization and civil societies. Characteristics practices flow naturally from their doctrines, such as refusing to bear arms, salute the flag, and participate in the affairs of the secular governments.

CHURCH OF GOD IN CHRIST: Protestant, Holiness denomination organized by two Baptists, C. P. Jones (1865–1949) and C. H. Mason (1866–1961), in Arkansas in 1895 and incorporated in 1897. It is one of the Pentecostal churches. Like other Holiness and Pentecostal groups, the church emphasizes sanctification, or holiness, which is deemed essential to salvation. The theology of the church is Trinitarian; the Bible is the chief religious authority and is interpreted literally. Ordinances include baptism by immersion, the Lord’s Supper, and foot washing. Speaking in tongues is considered the sign of baptism by the Holy Ghost.

 

[lakeside]

CHURCH OF CHRIST: any of several Pentecostal churches that developed in the U.S. South from the late 19th- and early 20th-century Latter Rain revival, based on a belief that a second rain of the gifts of the Holy Spirit would occur similar to that of the first Christian Pentecost. They adhere to an ultraconservative theology, by which they regard the state of holiness as a work of grace subsequent to conversion or justification, and practice "speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance."The revival began in the Great Smoky Mountains (northwest Georgia and eastern Tennessee) in 1886 under the leadership of R.G. Spurling and his son, who were Baptists, and W.F. Bryant, a Methodist. Members of the revival were organized into the Christian Union, changed their name to the Holiness Church (1902) and later to the Church of God (1907). In 1909 A.J. Tomlinson, an American Bible Society agent, was elected general overseer.Splits began to occur in 1917, when the Chattanooga congregation seceded and took the name of the Original Church of God, Inc. Other divisions followed and numerous independent groups were formed.

HOLINESS CHURCHES: fundamentalist Protestant bodies that developed from Methodism and hold as their distinguishing feature the doctrine that holiness, or sanctification of the individual, occurs by a second act of grace that follows justification and is supplementary to it. The experience of holiness is also referred to as the second blessing. The National Holiness Movement came into being shortly after the American Civil War. Originally a protest movement within Methodism, it opposed the Methodist falling away from the emphasis on sanctification that John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, had developed. He had stressed original sin and justification by faith and added that the individual may be assured of forgiveness by a direct experience of the spirit, called sanctification, which he regarded as the step leading to Christian perfection.The major representatives of the Holiness movement (excluding Pentecostal denominations) are the Church of the Nazarene and the Church of God (Anderson, Ind.).

CHURCH OF GOD: name of more than 200 independent religious bodies in the U.S. The majority of them are Adventist, Holiness, or Pentecostal denominations. originated about 1880 as a movement within existing churches to promote Christian unity. The founders were interested in relieving the church at large of what they believed was over-ecclesiasticism and restrictive organization and in reaffirming the New Testament as the true standard of faith and life.




TWENTIETH CENTURY

PENTECOSTAL: What is sometimes called classical Pentecostalism grew out of the late 19th century Holiness Movement in the United States. The Holiness preacher Charles Fox Parham began preaching (1901) to his Topeka congregation that speaking in tongues was objective evidence of baptism in the Spirit. After the Los Angeles mission of Parham's Apostolic Faith sect became the center of a great revival (1906) the movement quickly spread around the world. Over the next two decades the movement split along doctrinal and racial lines. Of the many Pentecostalist denominations in the United States today, characterized by belief in the experience of holiness or Christian perfection. This perfection is climaxed by an "infilling of the Holy Spirit," as evidenced by "speaking in tongues," ecstatic utterances frequently unintelligible to listeners,

UNITED UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST ASSOCIATION: Protestant church in the United States formed in 1961 by the merger of the American Unitarian Association and the Unitarian Universalist Church of America. Having shared some common concerns and positions throughout the 19th and 20th cent., the two churches formed a Council of Liberal Churches in 1953 as a preliminary step to merger. The convention in May, 1961, at which the merger was approved by delegates from both churches, adopted a constitution for the merged church and elected Dana McLean Greeley, formerly Unitarian president, the first president of the new association. The principal purpose of the merger was to link the churches' headquarters organizations and to enable them to speak as one on social and political questions. The church has about 141,000 members (1991)

 

[JonC]

.....

Your outline is useful, lakeside. I don’t think that you needed to put all of it here as perhaps a link to your source would have been sufficient. I also refer to catholic apologetics from time to time. It is typically not their observations, but their conclusions, that are flawed. But thanks for listing these groups. If I were to have tried by memory I'd have done poorly.

I remember years ago a Catholic professor’s defense. The issue was that the Catholic Church as we know it was born apostate because it’s creation was the point that it took on Roman paganism in the form of Sacrament and ecclesiological structure (blended religion and state). I thought that the professor was going to reject the notion that Catholic ritual included acquired paganism and therefore lose the debate. Instead he freely acknowledged that Catholic sacrament and ritual existed prior to the Church in the form of paganism, that the early church rejected this paganism, but he asserted God purified these rituals and sacraments by placing them within the Catholic Church (the Church made them holy). This is when I came to the conclusion that debate with Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc., useless. There simply is no common ground and short of arriving at that common ground there is not much to say.

 

[Rebel]

Your outline is useful, lakeside. I don’t think that you needed to put all of it here as perhaps a link to your source would have been sufficient. I also refer to catholic apologetics from time to time. It is typically not their observations, but their conclusions, that are flawed. But thanks for listing these groups. If I were to have tried by memory I'd have done poorly.

I remember years ago a Catholic professor’s defense. The issue was that the Catholic Church as we know it was born apostate because it’s creation was the point that it took on Roman paganism in the form of Sacrament and ecclesiological structure (blended religion and state). I thought that the professor was going to reject the notion that Catholic ritual included acquired paganism and therefore lose the debate. Instead he freely acknowledged that Catholic sacrament and ritual existed prior to the Church in the form of paganism, that the early church rejected this paganism, but he asserted God purified these rituals and sacraments by placing them within the Catholic Church (the Church made them holy). This is when I came to the conclusion that debate with Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc., useless. There simply is no common ground and short of arriving at that common ground there is not much to say.

You are mostly right, about the RCC. There is some common ground: Belief in the trinity, deity of Jesus, incarnation and bodily resurrection. Beyond that, though, well...............

 

[lakeside]

Jon C & Rebel, look, there are thousands of pagan religions out there. And only so many days in a year No matter what day Christmas or Easter fell on. There would be claims of us stealing the day. Claims of Catholics "adapting" pagan rituals. Is just silly. You have to remember. The Catholics who went into these pagan strongholds weren't some little pimple faced kid, ready to run at the first cuss word. They were hardcore Christians. Who would rather die than corrupt the teachings of Jesus. People say decorating a tree was stolen from the pagans. Was it stolen or was it just when pagans converted they just celibrated the birth of Christ ways they were used to. Humans decorate things. Its what we do. every culture since the days of the caveman either decorated themselves or their dwellings.
Bit like saying that when Americans use fireworks on the fourth of july, they aren't really celebrating independance day. But chinese new years.

 

[Salty]

I have a few questions here

1) do you believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation

2) Why does the RCC sprinkle infants

3) Do you believe in purgatory?

4) How does a person ensure he will go to Heaven

Scripture would be a nice bonus

 

[JonC]

Jon C & Rebel, look, there are thousands of pagan religions out there. And only so many days in a year No matter what day Christmas or Easter fell on. There would be claims of us stealing the day. Claims of Catholics "adapting" pagan rituals. Is just silly. You have to remember. The Catholics who went into these pagan strongholds weren't some little pimple faced kid, ready to run at the first cuss word. They were hardcore Christians. Who would rather die than corrupt the teachings of Jesus. People say decorating a tree was stolen from the pagans. Was it stolen or was it just when pagans converted they just celibrated the birth of Christ ways they were used to. Humans decorate things. Its what we do. every culture since the days of the caveman either decorated themselves or their dwellings.

Bit like saying that when Americans use fireworks on the fourth of july, they aren't really celebrating independance day. But chinese new years.

You misunderstand what I mean. Those Catholics were not defending Christianity. They were exercising the values and interests of a pagan culture. The paganism is MUCH deeper than a tree. It goes back to the heresy that created the church (which, BTW, God has indeed used for His purposes and glory) taken form Rome but extending to the ANE worldview.

 

[lakeside]

Jon C, you also misunderstand my post. I was just using the tree as an example of many things that we adapted into our culture that sprung out of paganism, i.e. architecture, trade guilds, agriculture and farming , get my point, also that wedding ring that you or your father wears on the finger, why not abandon your wedding ring, being its both pagan and Catholic in origin. The Catholic Church was formed on those Apostles along with their Successors [ for future Catholics/Christians ] only, not on any pagan sect or Protestant church founder. Even Judaism has colorful garb and traditional practices that are totally different from any Protestant service. Judaism was endorsed by Jesus and practiced by Jesus most of His earthly life. Catholicism is the completion of Judaism. Stop reading that anti-Catholic malarkey. The Catholic Mass is totally dependent on the Holy Bible alone and not on pagan rituals.

 

[Salty]

I have a few questions here

1) do you believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation

2) Why does the RCC sprinkle infants

3) Do you believe in purgatory?

4) How does a person ensure he will go to Heaven

Scripture would be a nice bonus

Lakeside,
Any particular reason, you haven't answered my simple questions?

 

[JonC]

Are some Baptists "historic revisionists " ?

Jon C, you also misunderstand my post. I was just using the tree as an example of many things that we adapted into our culture that sprung out of paganism, i.e. architecture, trade guilds, agriculture and farming , get my point, also that wedding ring that you or your father wears on the finger, why not abandon your wedding ring, being its both pagan and Catholic in origin. The Catholic Church was formed on those Apostles along with their Successors [ for future Catholics/Christians ] only, not on any pagan sect or Protestant church founder. Even Judaism has colorful garb and traditional practices that are totally different from any Protestant service. Judaism was endorsed by Jesus and practiced by Jesus most of His earthly life. Catholicism is the completion of Judaism. Stop reading that anti-Catholic malarkey. The Catholic Mass is totally dependent on the Holy Bible alone and not on pagan rituals.

I apologize if I have misunderstood your post. To be clear, I don’t care about anything as superficial as decorating a tree, hiding eggs, wearing a ring as a symbol, etc. Your objections are far too superficial. I have not obtained my understanding of the Catholic Church from reading anti-Catholic materials (except for those who would place Scripture in that category). I never accept anti-[fill in the blank] materials when studying a belief, but instead I go to adherents of that belief and sources of their doctrines. Studying ANE thought one cannot help but notice the stark difference between their worldview and a biblical worldview as revealed by God. ANE paganism had the same view of God/man dynamics as did the Greek and Roman pagans, and as does the Catholic Church (as evidenced by their understanding of Sacraments, the soteriological necessity of the Church, an earthly vicar, even apostolic succession). People are never saved by church, they are saved by God. They are saved when they repent from their own ways and efforts and believe in Jesus Christ. The priest is abandoned for the Mediator which is Christ. Sins are forgiven based on the Sacrifice once and for all, and these people walk in a newness of life outside the slavery of sin.

That said, I do notice that you rely on Catholic apologetics to substantiate your claims. Rarely have you ventured into exploring Scripture as the Word of God and as authoritative…but we both know why. You’ve already told us that Scripture is not above the Catholic Church in authority because Catholics, you believe, chose what books to call Scripture. To people who hold Scripture as God’s own revelation, inerrant and infallible, and authoritative your words translate directly as if you place the instructions of the Catholic Church equal to, if not above, the Word of God (and indeed you do, if apostolic succession is still a Catholic doctrine). This is why I say that we cannot have a debate but that I would enjoy exchanging observations. You may observe that I, being an non-Catholic, do not have extra-biblical sources and tradition in my arsenal to pull from as an authority. That is because I believe the Scripture to be the authority, and the only source of doctrine, for the Church. I observe you to be completely indoctrinated in Catholicism and unable to defend your position outside of that belief system (for you it will always come down to the circular argument of the authority of the Catholic Church….you believe that Scripture tells us Jesus placed authority in the Catholic Church but the Catholic Church is the one who affirmed the Canon - who chose that Scripture and decided what it meant). Your faith is misplaced and we will always speak past each other.

BTW, it was the Mass that the Catholic Professor defended by saying it "purified Roman paganism" when incorporated in the church....not a tree. Prior to the Mass the Romans had an almost identical custom (except that to my knowledge they don't know exactly what the "host" was). They understand Christ's words at the last supper through pagan eyes.

 

[Zenas]

BTW, it was the Mass that the Catholic Professor defended by saying it "purified Roman paganism" when incorporated in the church....not a tree. Prior to the Mass the Romans had an almost identical custom (except that to my knowledge they don't know exactly what the "host" was). They understand Christ's words at the last supper through pagan eyes.

Prior to the mass? The first mass is described in Mathew 26:26-30 (and the other gospels as well). And where in scripture does it quote Jesus as saying the bread and the cup represent His body and blood?

 

[JonC]

Prior to the mass? The first mass is described in Mathew 26:26-30 (and the other gospels as well). And where in scripture does it quote Jesus as saying the bread and the cup represent His body and blood?

Where in Scripture does it quote Jesus as saying "it is through you doing this that you will receive God's graces?" I understand why you may think the Supper to be a Sacrament (I am not so foolish as to believe all here are Baptist), and I actually do believe many Protestants (and Baptists....just throwing that in :smilewinkgrin mistakenly take the Lord's Supper as a mere representation. It is more significant than mere representation but far less pagan than a Mass. It is done in remembrance, not Christ offering Himself anew but in different form what was - if Scripture is true - offered once and for all.

 

[Zenas]

Where in Scripture does it quote Jesus as saying "it is through you doing this that you will receive God's graces?"

Sacrament: A visible sign of invisible grace. Are they scriptural? Well let’s see.

1. Baptism. “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’” John 3:5. See also 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5; Acts 2:38. The visible sign is the act of baptism with water “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

2. Confirmation. “Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:17. The visible sign is laying on of hands.

3. Holy Eucharist. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:54. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16. The visible signs are bread and wine.

4. Reconciliation. “And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.’” John 20:22-23. See also 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 9:8. The visible sign is the statement of absolution by the confessor.

5. Holy Matrimony. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” Mark 10:7-9. The visible sign is the exchange of the marriage vows.

6. Holy Orders (ordination). “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.” 1 Timothy 4:14. See also 2 Timothy 1:6; Acts 6:6. The visible sign is the laying on of hands.

7. Anointing of the Sick. “Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.” James 5:14-15. The visible signs are praying and anointing.

 

[JonC]

Are some Baptists "historic revisionists " ?

Sacrament: A visible sign of invisible grace. Are they scriptural? Well let’s see.



1. Baptism. “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’” John 3:5. See also 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5; Acts 2:38. The visible sign is the act of baptism with water “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”



2. Confirmation. “Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:17. The visible sign is laying on of hands.



3. Holy Eucharist. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:54. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16. The visible signs are bread and wine.



4. Reconciliation. “And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.’” John 20:22-23. See also 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 9:8. The visible sign is the statement of absolution by the confessor.



5. Holy Matrimony. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” Mark 10:7-9. The visible sign is the exchange of the marriage vows.



6. Holy Orders (ordination). “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.” 1 Timothy 4:14. See also 2 Timothy 1:6; Acts 6:6. The visible sign is the laying on of hands.



7. Anointing of the Sick. “Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.” James 5:14-15. The visible signs are praying and anointing.

Mass is not a visible sign but the means of conveying. Your examples miss the mark when speaking of a Catholic Mass. Also, born of water is not speaking of water baptism

 

[Zenas]

Mass is not a visible sign but the means of conveying. Your examples miss the mark when speaking of a Catholic Mass. Also, born of water is not speaking of water baptism

I don't think I said the mass is a visible sign and the only example I gave that pertains to the mass is No. 3--the Holy Eucharist.

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5.

1. Everyone would agree that being born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5) is the same thing as being “born again” (John 3:3). So what does it mean to be born again? We see what it means in Romans 6:4: “Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.” The newness of life is a reference to being born again.

2. The larger context of this passage shows a theme of cleansing, of which baptism is an essential element, whether it is viewed from a symbolic perspective or from a salvific or regenerational perspective. John 1 tells of the works of John the Baptist and the baptism of Jesus. In John 2 we see Jesus cleansing the temple. After the Nicodemus meeting in John 3, we see Jesus baptizing with His disciples. The water theme continues into Chapter 4, where we also see the woman at the well and living water. So cleansing is one of several themes we see as we read through the Gospel of John and baptism is a cleansing ritual. See. Acts 22:16.

3. It was universally held that John 3:5 refers to water baptism from the 1st Century until Huldrych Zwingli in the16th Century decided otherwise. The church fathers who expressly held to this view include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian of Carthage, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Ambrose of Milan, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysotom, Gregory of Nazianz, and Augustine. I have not discovered anyone who held another view during that period of time. There are those who pay little attention to historical development of Christian doctrines but they are missing out on the wisdom of the ages by their failure to do so. I pay attention to these things and show them great deference unless they are manifestly contrary to scripture. The idea that baptism is only symbolic is a new idea in Christian thinking, and a wrong idea.

4. Before Jesus and before John, baptism was a common practice in the Jewish world. Anyone who converted to the Jewish faith had to be baptized. The water of immersion (mikvah) in Rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world, and as a convert came out of the water it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. His status was changed and he was referred to as "a little child just born" or "a child of one day". We see the New Testament using similar Jewish terms as "born again," "new creation," and "born from above." Therefore, the phrase “born of water” would immediately tell a devout Jew like Nicodemus that Jesus was speaking of baptism. That is why everyone in the early church knew that being “born of water” was a reference to baptism. There was never any debate about it because it was always understood. Only in modern times did people get confused about the meaning of John 3:5 because its correct meaning interfered with their flawed soteriology.

 

[JonC]

Are some Baptists "historic revisionists " ?

I don't think I said the mass is a visible sign and the only example I gave that pertains to the mass is No. 3.

Yet the catholic Mass was what we were speaking of. I disagree about your understanding of "born of water" although I realize it has been viewed as baptism and as physical birth in the past. There are other options. Perhaps you should start a thread "what does it mean to be born of water?" I believe Jesus to be referring to Ezekiel 36 when God will cleanse His people with water (forgive their sins) and put a new spirit in them (give them life)...which would be significant to a "teacher of Israel. If not I will when I get to a computer. But that's far from the topic here.

 

[Zenas]

Yet the catholic Mass was what we were speaking of. I disagree about your understanding of "born of water" although I realize it has been viewed as baptism and as physical birth in the past. There are other options. Perhaps you should start a thread "what does it mean to be born of water?" I believe Jesus to be referring to Ezekiel 36 when God will cleanse His people with water (forgive their sins) and put a new spirit in them (give them life)...which would be significant to a "teacher of Israel. If not I will when I get to a computer. But that's far from the topic here.

I guess I misunderstood your question in Post 53. Apparently you were focusing on the mass and I took it to be a question about receiving graces through all the sacraments. Therefore the answer I gave included scriptural references to all the sacraments.

 

[JonC]

I guess I misunderstood your question in Post 53. Apparently you were focusing on the mass and I took it to be a question about receiving graces through all the sacraments. Therefore the answer I gave included scriptural references to all the sacraments.

That's ok. I think the topic "born of water and of spirit" will be interesting and I look forward to a dialogue.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2223797#post2223797

 

[JonC]

Only in modern times did people get confused about the meaning of John 3:5 because its correct meaning interfered with their flawed soteriology.

I will note this, and if you would like to discuss the topic we can continue on the new thread, we should allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. Nowhere does "born of water" equate to water baptism. For "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior." Refer also to Ezekiel 36, or Psalm 51. Baptismal regeneration was not being introduced to the scene.