Are the five points Biblical or man made?

[RAdam]

That doesn't make any sense. Are you saved by grace or works? If you say grace, then you exclude works, right? Ok. But you were saved by the works of Jesus Christ. So you see when someone says they are saved, not by works, they are speaking of their own works. In like manner, when we say we election is unconditional, we mean on our part. It is absolutely condition upon the work of God, that being foreknowledge, and leading to the further works of predestination, calling, justification, and glorification, all done by God. But, it is not conditioned upon anything I do.

 

[Amy.G]

In like manner, when we say we election is unconditional, we mean on our part. It is absolutely condition upon the work of God, that being foreknowledge, and leading to the further works of predestination, calling, justification, and glorification, all done by God. But, it is not conditioned upon anything I do.

So you don't need to have faith? You will be "unconditionally" saved even if you don't believe?

 

[Me4Him]

No it says.....Whom......that means all of them. Every person that God foreknow......was predestined.

would be saved...is not in the context. Now I do agree, for then we could read the verse as...The elect is predestined, which is what Calvinist say.

Why doesn't it say, "whom God predestine he did also predestine to conform to Jesus image???

Foreknowledge is not the same as Predestination, this predestination occur "AFTER" salvation, it's not about to whom salvation is/is not available.

We are trying to get to the meaning of "Foreknow". One view held by the Arminian is that God "KNOW ABOUT"...

so I ask....Did God foreknow Cain would reject him?

God knew everything, beginning to end, one reason he ordained Jesus "BEFORE" the world was created.

Engineers "look ahead" and "foreknowing" what is going to occur, construct their "plans" to take into account whatever it is that is going to occur,

Without "foreknowledge", a modern society couldn't exist, but man doesn't "predestine" these things to occur.

It's the same with God, he foreknew and constructed his plan (Jesus ordained) to take into account the sins of the whole world, his Grace would "exceed all sin". (abound more)

This Grace is not automatic nor is it "RATIONED OUT", but to receive it one must have "FAITH".

Some claim faith is a gift from God, but, how do you explain,

The world "MIGHT BE" saved "IF" God can enforce his "Predestine Sovereign will".

Possibilities exit (might be/If) in the plan of salvation that can not exit had it been predestined by Sovereign will.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ro 10:9 That... "IF" ... thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

These "Uncertain possibilities" of might be/if clearly refutes the involvement of any predestination by God's Sovereign will.

The might be/if all depend on "YOUR FAITH", your "BELIEF/UNBELIEF",

Predestination would deny God meant for his Grace to abound more than sin,

but it's "FREELY OFFERED", more so than all the sins that condemns.

 

[Revmitchell]

John 1:12, 13 says those that received Him were already born of God.

It says nothing of the sort.

 

[Revmitchell]

To the part about God's will, let me point out Isaiah 46 among many that affirm that absolute sovereignty of God. Over there we are told that "my counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure." Then we are told, "yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." What goes purposes to do, and says He will do, He does. He does all His pleasure. Nebuchadnezzar said, "he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand or say unto him, What doest thou?" Paul says that "he worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." I have not the time or space to quote all the texts that not only affirm His sovereignty, but also that God's will is done.

This fails to answer my post. I neither argued against the sovereignty of God nor His will. I suggest you go back and reread my post.

 

[Revmitchell]

That doesn't make any sense. Are you saved by grace or works? If you say grace, then you exclude works, right? Ok. But you were saved by the works of Jesus Christ. So you see when someone says they are saved, not by works, they are speaking of their own works. In like manner, when we say we election is unconditional, we mean on our part. It is absolutely condition upon the work of God, that being foreknowledge, and leading to the further works of predestination, calling, justification, and glorification, all done by God. But, it is not conditioned upon anything I do.

When God requires a response from man it in no way constitutes works. The credit for salvation begins and ends with Christs power and authority regardless of what repsonse God requires of man.

 

[OldRegular]

So you don't need to have faith? You will be "unconditionally" saved even if you don't believe?

You are saved because God not only regenerates His elect but gives them the faith by which they believe.[Ephesians 2:1-8]

 

[Me4Him]

You are saved because God not only regenerates His elect but gives them the faith by which they believe.[Ephesians 2:1-8]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved, it is the gift of God:

Faith and Grace are not the same thing,

Faith without grace is dead, people have faith in all kinds of gods.

Grace without Faith is dead, Joh 8:24 for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If faith was a gift from God, it wouldn't be possible for a "dead faith" to exist.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And a "dead Faith" can exit even when "working for the lord".

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[RAdam]

In the same context where Paul is saying that grace is much more abounding than sin, the apostle is discussing Adam's representation and comparing it to Christ's. The apostle says that like as sin and death passed unto all that Adam represented, so did righteousness and eternal life pass unto all that Christ represented.

I wish people would read the entirety of Romans 10 instead of just quoting a couple of verses out of context. Paul begins that chapter saying his heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved. Immediately people think he must mean from hell. Let me ask you a question? Why is the word saved always tied to eternal life by men when it is not by the bible? Peter asks the Lord to save him from the water. Paul tells Timothy he can save himself and them that hear him (gonna have a hard time convincing me that Paul promoted an unregenerate man into the ministry). Therefore you can see that a study of context is needed to determine what saved is referring to in a particular text. These people in Romans 10 are said to have zeal of God but not according to knowledge. Paul says they are ignorant of God's righteousness (the justifying righteousness of Christ) and are trying to establish their own righteousness through the law. Paul is praying that they might be saved from that, because Christ is the end of the law unto salvation to everyone that believeth. He then contrasts the righteousness of the law with the righteousness which is of faith, two ways of life really. The righteousness of faith, Paul says, speaks in our hearts telling us to call upon the name of the Lord, to believe Him and in Him. If we do these things we'll be saved. From what? What's the context? Ignorance of the fact that Christ is our righteousness. Thus, being saved from that, we are saved from trying to establish our own righteousness through the law.

Finally the word might in John 3:17 doesn't speak about a possibility, but rather rendering the ability. For instance, I could say that I stopped by the gas station so I might (or could) fill up the tank in my truck. I had determined to fill up the tank in my truck, but I had to do something in order to carry this out. God sent His Son into the world in order to carry out His purpose.

 

[Allan]

Two scriptures come to mind.

First, Romans 8:28-30, where Paul says "whom he did foreknow, he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son..

It seems clear that in this instance, God foreknew someone, not just some thing, and that someone was predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Further, that same person, or those same people--all of them, without exception--he called, justified and glorified. In v 28 those people are called "the called."

The other scripture verse is Matthew 7:23, where Jesus says to a group of people "I never knew you."

At least in these two passages, the context is that God and Jesus know (or never knew) someone. Those whom he knew are believers and those whom he never knew are people who pretended to be believers, but were not.

Further, since God is immutable, those whom he knows (believers) he has always known, or foreknown. He knew them before they were born.

God has always purposed to bring those whom he foreknows into conformance with the image of his Son. They are the ones he called. They are the ones he justified. Only them.

Conversely, those whom Jesus said he never knew were never called or justified.

Tom, I would still suggest you look into every lexicon aide you can find concerning the word to get an understanding of what the word was understood to mean by those who used during that time. This is not to put down your knowledge and understanding brother but to better help you grow in some of it you have not yet looked into.

Secondly, the main issue here is what is understoood about the Greek word 'knew' and 'knowledge', and it is the (mis)understanding about what these words mean that brings problems. Calvinism trys to state that 'knew' means love.. ie. foreknew/forelove, when in fact it never has.

I don't know about the Greek lexicons. But the English translations seem pretty clear to me.

And thus my encouragement to look at the original language and find out what the meaning of words actually are and not the theological meanings imposed upon them.

 

[RAdam]

Galatians 5:22 says faith is fruit of the spirit. Gonna have a hard time finding fruit without a tree. Also, 2 Peter 1:1 tells us that we have obtained like precious faith through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ. Not only is faith a gift from God, but it comes through the righteousness of God.

 

[Allan]

You are saved because God not only regenerates His elect but gives them the faith by which they believe.[Ephesians 2:1-8]

So in other words God can not and will not save us until 'we' believe. Is that correct?

 

[Dale-c]

So in other words God can not and will not save us until 'we' believe. Is that correct?

WHen we are regenerated, we will believe.
Since it is all based on the work of God, all of this will happen and none of it will be left out.
It is possible to have a false belief, a false faith.
But the Faith, the saving faith which is the gift of God is perfect.
There will not be one person saved without belief and God's gift of faith.

 

[Dale-c]

So in other words God can not and will not save us until 'we' believe. Is that correct?

No, God can and does give us the change of heart so that we do believe.

 

[OldRegular]

Those who deny the doctrine of election are denying Scripture:

Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Please note that it is God the Father
1. Who chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.
2. Who made us accepted in the beloved [Jesus Christ].

We did nothing that could make us accepted in the beloved./ except use the faith that God the Holy Spirit gave us after He regenerated us [Ephesians 2:1-8].

This simply shows that salvation from start to finish is the work if God as shown in

Philippians 1:6, KJV
6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

and in

Hebrews 12:2, KJV
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Allan]

Galatians 5:22 says faith is fruit of the spirit. Gonna have a hard time finding fruit without a tree. Also, 2 Peter 1:1 tells us that we have obtained like precious faith through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ. Not only is faith a gift from God, but it comes through the righteousness of God.

WIth respect to the Galation passage it is clear you have not looked into the actual wording. It is not 'faith' in the manner you are taking it (as found in the KJV) but rather it means 'faithfulness'. Check into it and look it up.

Also with 2 Peter you have horrifically mutilated that verse to come to your conclusion. Simply stated it means all believers have come into this faith through God and His Son.

 

[OldRegular]

I posted the following on the thread http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=59735, "a thread for calvinists". It is still appropriate here, though I recognize that some of the Scripture is a repetition of some I posted above.

In the doctrine that some call Calvinism, what I call the Doctrines of Grace, we see the Grace of GOD sublimely revealed in the sovereignty of GOD.

The doctrine of the sovereignty of God in Salvation is clearly expressed in the Covenant of Grace. This Covenant, an eternal covenant, is best understood as a covenant in which the three Divine Persons in the Godhead co-operate in man’s salvation [Psalms 2:8; 40: 6-8; 59:3; Isaiah 49: 3-12; John 17:6; Hebrews 13:20; Titus 1:2] and is summarized as follows:

1. God the Father foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].

2. God the Son agrees to humble Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, and die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation so that none are lost [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].

3. God the Holy Spirit agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God the Father and who regenerates and effectually calls those whom God the Father has chosen unto salvation [John 6: 37, 44; Ephesians 2:1-10].

We must not think that this Covenant of Grace was preceded by a proposal of terms by one person of the Triune Godhead followed by deliberation prior to acceptance or rejection of the proposal by the other persons of the Triune Godhead. God is One and the nature of the Godhead is such that perfect harmony, in fact, unity of thought must exist within the Triune Godhead.

Holy Scripture is the story of the outworking of the Covenant of Grace in time and history. Though there is one Covenant of Grace [and many subsidiary covenants] there have been two primary administrations of the Covenant, one before the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and one after His death and resurrection. The first administration as recorded in the Old Testament dealt in types and shadows of things to come [Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5 and 10:1]; the second administration, as recorded in the New Testament, presents the spiritual reality of that which was promised. This second administration was instituted by the death of Jesus Christ [Hebrews 7:14-28] and is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise of a New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-13]. The elect of God have, since the fall of Adam, received the blessings of the Covenant solely through the Grace of God.

The Baptist Confession of Faith of 1677 [Lumpkin, page 259] defines the Covenant of Grace as follows:

“The distance between God and the creature is so great that, although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God’s part [Luke 17:7-10; Job 35:7,8] which He hath been pleased to express, by way of Covenant.

Moreover man, having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall [Genesis 2:17; Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:20, 21], it pleased the Lord to make a Covenant of Grace wherein He freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved [Romans 8:3; Mark 16:15, 16; John 3:16]; and promising to give unto all those that they ordained unto eternal life, His Holy Spirit to make them willing and able to believe [Ezekiel 36:26, 27; John 6:44, 45; Psalm 110:3].

This Covenant is revealed in the Gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of woman [Genesis 3:15], and afterwards by further steps until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament [Hebrews 1:1]; and it is founded in that eternal Covenant transaction [2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2] that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this Covenant that all of the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved [Hebrews 11:6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2; Acts 4:12; John 8: 56] did obtain life and a blessed immortality; man being utterly uncapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.”

The Apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Rome clearly defines the sovereignty of God in salvation:

Romans 1:16, KJV
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

That the sovereignty of God is active in the salvation of the elect is demonstrated in the following Scripture.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:1-8, KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Philippians 2:6-8, KJV
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

1 Peter 1:18,19, KJV
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

John 16:13-15, KJV
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

From this sampling of many such Scripture we see the affirmation of the Covenant of Grace:

1. It is God the Father who foreknew and chose His people before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
2. It is God the Father who predestinated that His people would be conformed to the image of His Son that they might be adopted as His children [Ephesians 1: 5] and become heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8: 16, 17].
3. It is God the Son who humbles Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, Jesus Christ, and sheds His blood on a Roman cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].
4. It is God the Holy Spirit, who applies the work of the Jesus Christ to those chosen by God unto salvation so that none are lost [John 6: 37, 39, 40, 44].
5. It is the Triune God who, in time, will regenerate, call, justify, and glorify those whom He chose to Salvation before the foundation of the world, therefore, they can never fall away or lose that Salvation [Romans 8:28-30].

The Holy Scriptures from the first words in the book of Genesis, In the beginning God created to the last words in the book of Revelation, The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen, are a testimony to the sovereignty of God. By sovereignty is meant, not simply the omnipotence of God, but the exercise of that omnipotence, as HE chooses, in the governing of all things. Similarly, from the shedding of blood to provide a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve, to the birth of Jesus Christ - God the Son, His death and resurrection, and finally to the declaration of His return in power and glory, Scripture clearly declares the sovereignty of God in salvation. God not only takes the initiative in salvation but completes that good work.

Philippians 1:6, KJV
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Allan]

Those who deny the doctrine of election are denying Scripture:

Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Please note that it is God the Father
1. Who chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.
2. Who made us accepted in the beloved [Jesus Christ].

We did nothing that could make us accepted in the beloved./ except use the faith that God the Holy Spirit gave us after He regenerated us [Ephesians 2:1-8].

This simply shows that salvation from start to finish is the work if God as shown in

Philippians 1:6, KJV
6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

and in

Hebrews 12:2, KJV
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The denial isn't the doctrine of election as given in scripture it is the denial of what is seen as a unbiblical view of what it entails.

No one denies anything in the above only the interpretion of the mechanics thereof by which the Cal doctrine is derived.

 

[Allan]

WHen we are regenerated, we will believe.
Since it is all based on the work of God, all of this will happen and none of it will be left out.
It is possible to have a false belief, a false faith.
But the Faith, the saving faith which is the gift of God is perfect.
There will not be one person saved without belief and God's gift of faith.

Even Calsinsts are divided on this issue of regeneration whether before or after. The 'before' concept is nothing derived from scripture (and is attested as such by Calvinists) but is a theological supposition that is drawn from their understanding of their other basic tenants.

however I believe, and have two threads specifically designed to talk about regeneration, that scripture is specific and detailed that Regeneration comes at salvation thus after faith is excersized.

I agree that not one person will be saved apart from faith but my point is that God will only save those who believe and will not do it until they have.
Regardless of it God gives it to them or not - not one person will God save unless that man believes. Therefore God only saves those who have believed. So is it completely and all of God if man must do something?

 

[RAdam]

Here's John Gill's exposition on Galatians 5:22 - "faith; for though fidelity, both in words and actions, which is very ornamental to the Gospel, and a profession of religion may be meant; yet faith in Christ is not to be excluded, as it is generally by interpreters; for this is not of a man's self, nor have all men it: it is a gift of God, the operation of his power, and the work of his Spirit, whence he is styled the spirit of faith; and which therefore must have a place among his fruits; and which lies and shows itself in believing in Christ for salvation, in embracing the doctrines of the Gospel, and making a profession of them, which is called the profession of faith; all which, when right, comes from the Spirit of God"

His exposition on 2 Peter 1:1 - "wherefore by "righteousness" here, cannot be meant the goodness and mercy of God, as some think, though faith undoubtedly comes through that; nor the faithfulness of God making good his purpose and promise of giving faith to his elect, as others think: but the righteousness of Christ, which is not the righteousness of a creature, but of God; that is wrought out by one that is God, as well as man, and so answerable to all the purposes for which it is brought in. Now faith comes "in," or "with" this righteousness, as the phrase may be rendered; when the Spirit of God reveals and brings near this righteousness to a poor sensible sinner, he at the same time works faith in him to look to it, lay hold upon it, and plead it as his justifying righteousness with God: or it comes "through" it; hence it appears that faith and righteousness are two distinct things; and that faith is not a man's righteousness before God, for it comes to him through it; as also that righteousness is before faith, or otherwise faith could not come by it; and, moreover, is the cause and reason of it; faith has no causal influence upon righteousness, but righteousness has upon faith: the reason why a man has a justifying righteousness is not because he has faith; but the reason why he has faith given him is because he has a justifying righteousness provided for him, and imputed to him"