Are the five points Biblical or man made?

[Tom Butler]

Now, you said that God has obligated himself to call (by the gospel) every single person without exception. How can that be since not all have heard the gospel? There were some in the days of the apostle that didn't hear. There have always been some that haven't heard the gospel. There have been men in all ages that didn't have the same opportunity to hear the gospel that we have been blessed with.

There are some on this board who insist that every person without exception must have heard the gospel, some way, somehow. Some have heard it from missionaries, some from tracts left at the grocery store, maybe some from leaflets dropped from the sky, and some from--well, they're not sure, but it must be so. Jesus is the light that has come into the world, and world always means all, which means everybody.

This despite the fact that the Greeks in Athens were ignorant of Jesus and the resurrection until Paul debated in the marketplace and preached about it at the request of the philosophers on Mars Hill.

Who preached the gospel in Asia Minor before Paul and Barnabas got there?

 

[OldRegular]

Actually my dear brother what it proves is MY view, in that while we were still dead we became saved by/through His grace and that by faith SO it is by grace that we come from death into life and as Paul establishes in this text whereby we go from death unto life and this is through faith.
THus while dead it was through faith we were saved by grace and brought into Christ. And as I showed scripturally that we are not united into and with Christ except by faith, we are not justified except by faith, we are not sanctified except by faith and the Holy Spirit does not indwell us excect by faith. THerefore to try to force scripture into some other view is to contradict scripture itself. It is also the reason many Calvinists do not hold to regeneration preceding faith as well.

How can one who is spiritually dead believe? They can't! Sadly you are reversing the order presented in the passage quoted which is as follows:

1. Man is spiritually dead! [Ephesians 2:1, 2, 3, 5]
2. God the Holy Spirit regenerates the spiritually dead man! [Ephesians 2:5]
3. God the Holy Spirit gives the regenerate man the faith to believe! [Ephesians 2:8]
4. All is through the grace of God! [Ephesians 2:4, 8]

 

[Me4Him]

Actually i think it strange that we think that anyone - Calvinist or non-Calvinist - can systematize a God-thing like salvation. I find that both 'systems' are in Scripture and that only the God who wrote the Book can ultimately show how that both can be true yet not contradictory.

Folks who believe in "predestination" don't believe you/me can change the future, not only for ourselves but the world as well.

Down through history God repeatedly warned Israel to turn from their sin "or else", sometimes Israel obeyed, sometime they didn't, and the "or else" occurred.

But the point is that Israel's obedience/disobedience determine if their future was a blessing or a curse.

God never made the decision of obedience/disobdience for them, that was left up to Israel.

and that is the plan of salvation as well, the law of "death for sin" has been "blotted out" for the whole world, we know we're sinners and God/gospel calls on all of us to repent/confess/believe in Jesus and God will save us.

Of course the decision to obey/disobey is left up to man and that decision will determine his future, a blessing or a curse.

Jesus told Israel, "I would you wouldn't", clearly the decision wasn't to be made by Jesus's/God's,

but suppose Israel had accepted Jesus, the curse of 70 AD wouldn't have occurred, nor all the pogrom since.

It's wrong to think all the evil that has/will occur has been predestined, God's no respecter of sinners with his "LOVE", or "MERCY",

God would no more predestine a sinner to be lost than he did for Israel to disobey or reject Jesus.

Through "Foreknowledge" God knew the future, but he continues to give the warning/calling to obedience, because a "Change" in the future, for people/the world, is still possible,

which would not be possible if "predestinated".

You all are, for the most part, to be commended on the civil way that the discussion has been performed. I've seen some of these discussions turn into mutual charges of the other not being saved.

I once had a teacher who said she learned more trying to, teach a subject, than she ever learned, studying the subject.

I find that to be "true".

 

[OldRegular]

Of course the decision to obey/disobey is left up to man and that decision will determine his future, a blessing or a curse.

You are incorrect as the following Scripture clearly show.

John 6:65, KJV And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given onto him of my Father.

John 6:37, KJV All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[Me4Him]

You are incorrect as the following Scripture clearly show.

John 6:65, KJV And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given onto him of my Father.

John 6:37, KJV All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

You base your doctrine on two verses???

 

[Allan]

How can one who is spiritually dead believe? They can't! Sadly you are reversing the order presented in the passage quoted which is as follows:

1. Man is spiritually dead! [Ephesians 2:1, 2, 3, 5]
2. God the Holy Spirit regenerates the spiritually dead man! [Ephesians 2:5]
3. God the Holy Spirit gives the regenerate man the faith to believe! [Ephesians 2:8]
4. All is through the grace of God! [Ephesians 2:4, 8]

Actaully scripture states they do as do many of the Reformed position (Millard Erickson Systematic Theology and though some don't think he was Calvinistic Grudeman Systematic Theology)

It is kinda hard to agree with your position with verses like :

"For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people" (1 Cor 7:22).

Study it out carefully. As well as this:

Act 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Notice where they are 'when' they turn toward God. And others as well.

It is correct to state that born of the Spirit (New Birth) equals regeneration and that the new birth therefore equals the indwelling of the Spirit. For unless we are born-again 'dead', we must conclude with the scriptures that we are born 'with and in' Life. And thusly we are said to be Born into Christ. We see the scriptures bare this out when it states that we are 'alive in Christ'. Our life (the new birth) is because we are "IN" Christ Jesus and if you are IN Christ then you ARE saved according the scriptures.

And we know that no man is saved in this dispensation of grace unless the Spirit of God has placed that person into the body of Christ Jesus through His baptism.

I have discussed this part of regeneration with my Reformed brethren in both of my Threads dealing with Regeneration and specifically "Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration". In this last thread I posted something that has bothered me about the classical reformed stance on Regeneration prior to salvation regarding their understanding of what Regeneration both is and does (this is not to be confused with the moderate reformed stance).

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation and thus the New birth, according to scripture, and is described as an event in which the Old is 'No More' but you have become a new creation.

We find in scripture that regeneration is primarily the acts of justification and sanctification (Titus 3:5) which result in being righteous and in Christ and thus being 'alive' because we are no longer seperated from God and sinfilled, but 'In Christ' seperate from sin and sin-cleansed. Spiritual life is being in God not merely being. Therefore it is impossible to be unforgiven (in sin/fulness) and be in Christ Jesus. Scripture states believe and be saved not be saved and so believe. That belief involves repentance for without it there is no forgiveness and thus one can not be in Christ prior to faith.

Thus the scripture states all those things which constitutes a regenerate life all come about 'through faith' and not prior to it, because it is 'by faith' we find in scripture that they all transpire.
It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Therefore the truth is this, we are not first made regenerate that these things happen, but things things are in deed the regeneration itself. They discribe what changes the life (justification and sanctification) to something new thus they descibe the act of being regenerate or changed from the old into the New.


Anyway that is my take.

 

[Allan]

Anyway I am going to back off mostly on this thread as it is going off track and simply refer back to my previous comment which reflects the OP still

This is what I meant from the very beginning that it is not the immutable truths we disagree with or better the biblical concepts but it is the mechanics of how they operate whereby we disagree :thumbs:

As we have seen, no one disputes depravity, election, atonement, grace, and perseverance/preserverance yet it seems to get hot quickly when how they are seen operating is being discussed.

 

[Me4Him]

There are some on this board who insist that every person without exception must have heard the gospel, some way, somehow. Some have heard it from missionaries, some from tracts left at the grocery store, maybe some from leaflets dropped from the sky, and some from--well, they're not sure, but it must be so. Jesus is the light that has come into the world, and world always means all, which means everybody.

This despite the fact that the Greeks in Athens were ignorant of Jesus and the resurrection until Paul debated in the marketplace and preached about it at the request of the philosophers on Mars Hill.

Who preached the gospel in Asia Minor before Paul and Barnabas got there?

When Noah and his Sons step off the ark, they had the only knowledge/doctrine of God in the world,

even with this knowledge, man has been falling away ever since.

Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



God will hold everyone accountable for what they knew or could have known and rejected,

but 'EVERY KNEE" will bow.

God passing judgment on the thoughts/intents of a person's heart is a major obstacle to having been predestine.




Ge 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.



Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

 

[Tom Butler]

Me4Him, I guess I''m dense, but I don't see your your post responds to my post.

 

[TomMann]

If God Predestine all the elect to be saved, why didn't he predestine them to be saved within his "schedule",

Why would God have to "ADJUST" his schedule to give all the "elect" "TIME" to be saved???

Don't you ever "meditate" on what you believe/say???

Who said we aren't on schedule? Who said God is making adjustments?

Known unto God all all his works, from the beginning of time!!!!!!!

Don't you ever "meditate" on what you believe/say???

 

[OldRegular]

You base your doctrine on two verses???

No! But Scripture does not contradict itself as you would have it do!

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him, I guess I''m dense, but I don't see your your post responds to my post.

Everybody on the planet are decendants of Noah's family coming off the ark, and they are the ones who repopulated the planet,

and the "knowledge of God" came with them.

Every society has some kind of "flood story" in their history, but where's the "knowledge of God Story"???

So why believe there are people on the planet who never heard of God, if they can remember a flood???

It's not like they came from another planet, it's been a "conscience" effort to "forget God" rather than an "ignorance of God".

 

[Me4Him]

Who said we aren't on schedule? Who said God is making adjustments?

Known unto God all all his works, from the beginning of time!!!!!!!

Don't you ever "meditate" on what you believe/say???

RAdam;

Peter is stating that Jesus Christ isn't delaying His coming based on slackness, but based on the fact that there are elect that God isn't willing to let perish.

God isn't delaying his schedule for anyone, lost or saved.

RAdam statement is what I was addressing.

 

[Me4Him]

No! But Scripture does not contradict itself as you would have it do!

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

What part does this verse explain in the plan of salvation???

 

[Tom Butler]

Everybody on the planet are decendants of Noah's family coming off the ark, and they are the ones who repopulated the planet,

and the "knowledge of God" came with them.

Every society has some kind of "flood story" in their history, but where's the "knowledge of God Story"???

So why believe there are people on the planet who never heard of God, if they can remember a flood???

It's not like they came from another planet, it's been a "conscience" effort to "forget God" rather than an "ignorance of God".

We can have a cordial discussion as to whether everyone on earth knows about God the Creator. It's entirely possible, I think, for everyone to have some kind of awareness of the existence of a Creator, an inference drawn from creation itself.

However, a universal knowledge of Jesus Christ and the gospel is something else entirely. It's hard for me to imagine an isolated tribe in the jungles of South America knowing about Jesus innately or instinctively. Also, a simple knowledge of the existence of Jesus as a person does not seem to be enough. He must be identified as Messiah or Savior, God in the flesh. The claims of the gospel must be presented as well. And the sending of Paul and Barnabas strongly suggests that until they arrived, the people the came to did not know about Jesus as Savior.

How those will be judged who never heard until the arrival of Paul and Barnabas is for another discussioin. But it seems plain that there are some who have never heard, even today.

 

[Amy.G]

It's entirely possible, I think, for everyone to have some kind of awareness of the existence of a Creator, an inference drawn from creation itself.

It is more than a possibility. Paul says it is fact.

Romans 1
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Their hearts are darkened because they reject the light that has been given to all men.


Jesus explained it to the Jews like this:

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

We are responsible for listening to God in whatever way He has revealed Himself, whether through creation or His word. If we choose to turn a deaf ear, He will take away even that which we had at the beginning.

However, a universal knowledge of Jesus Christ and the gospel is something else entirely.

God will send a messenger to anyone who has not rejected the light He has given them. I have heard many stories of missionaries that went to isolated locations only to find that the person they witnessed to had already been praying for God to reveal Himself to them.

 

[Tom Butler]

It is more than a possibility. Paul says it is fact.

Romans 1
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Their hearts are darkened because they reject the light that has been given to all men.


Jesus explained it to the Jews like this:

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

We are responsible for listening to God in whatever way He has revealed Himself, whether through creation or His word. If we choose to turn a deaf ear, He will take away even that which we had at the beginning.

-----------------------
God will send a messenger to anyone who has not rejected the light He has given them. I have heard many stories of missionaries that went to isolated locations only to find that the person they witnessed to had already been praying for God to reveal Himself to them.

Amy, I think we are almost agreeing with each other.

Just to make sure, here's my understanding of your view: Through creation, God has revealed himself to all. However, if one rejects that light (or turn a deaf ear, as you put it), God will deny him further light and will darken his understanding. Conversely, if one will receive the light he has, God will give him more light.

To carry this a step further, such a denial of more light could involve a denial of access to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Would you go that far?

I say we're almost agreeing because I would modify your view by saying that if one rejects the light he is given, God is under no obligation to give more light. However, in his mercy, he may give more light. For example, at this moment we have Baptist missionaries risking life and freedom in China, where hundreds of millions have rejected the light, evening denying the existence of God. Yet God has called out these men and women to take the light of the gospel to those who do not want it.

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that until missionaries arrived, some people groups had never heard the gospel and knew nothing of Jesus. Those who died before they came, died without knowing of the Savior and the gospel.

When Paul preached the resurrected Christ in the Athens marketplace, he was invited to come up Mars Hill to discuss it further with the philosophers who met there. Why? Because this was new stuff to them. They'd never heard it before.

Acts 17:19-21 And they took him and brought him to Areopagus [Mars Hill], saying, may we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is.
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears; we would know, therefore, what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

To prove my point that some have never heard the gospel, here's a bunch who had never heard it before. And if one person has never heard the gospel, it also proves the point. Now, was it because they had rejected earlier light? Don't know. Nobody knows. But it is likely that someone died in Athens that day who didn't make it to the Agora or the Areopagus? Or the day before. Or the month before. Before the gospel arrived with Paul.

 

[Allan]

Amy, I think we are almost agreeing with each other.

Just to make sure, here's my understanding of your view: Through creation, God has revealed himself to all. However, if one rejects that light (or turn a deaf ear, as you put it), God will deny him further light and will darken his understanding. Conversely, if one will receive the light he has, God will give him more light.

To carry this a step further, such a denial of more light could involve a denial of access to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Would you go that far?

I say we're almost agreeing because I would modify your view by saying that if one rejects the light he is given, God is under no obligation to give more light. However, in his mercy, he may give more light. For example, at this moment we have Baptist missionaries risking life and freedom in China, where hundreds of millions have rejected the light, evening denying the existence of God. Yet God has called out these men and women to take the light of the gospel to those who do not want it.

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that until missionaries arrived, some people groups had never heard the gospel and knew nothing of Jesus. Those who died before they came, died without knowing of the Savior and the gospel.

When Paul preached the resurrected Christ in the Athens marketplace, he was invited to come up Mars Hill to discuss it further with the philosophers who met there. Why? Because this was new stuff to them. They'd never heard it before.

Acts 17:19-21 And they took him and brought him to Areopagus [Mars Hill], saying, may we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is.
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears; we would know, therefore, what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

To prove my point that some have never heard the gospel, here's a bunch who had never heard it before. And if one person has never heard the gospel, it also proves the point. Now, was it because they had rejected earlier light? Don't know. Nobody knows. But it is likely that someone died in Athens that day who didn't make it to the Agora or the Areopagus? Or the day before. Or the month before. Before the gospel arrived with Paul.

I'm pretty sure that Amy agrees (but she is a big girl and can speak for herself ). I however... do agree with you. :thumbs:

But I will go a step further than some and state that these truths revealed in creation are revealed by God and not just something that is intellectually grasped. God states He reveals these truths to men and they are the same truths that the Holy Spirit has been sent forth to reveal to men - Sin, His righteousness (who He is), and Judgment to come. Therefore these particular truths evidenced here in Romans 1:18- are spiritual truths that no man can come to unless it be given him by God to understand. However these, as you stated, are some of the light/truths and if they are received God will give/bring more. Yet off of these basic truths revealed to man (Rom 1), he can be condemned for not receiving them just as he is with the gospel (2 Thes 2:10-12). Thus to reject these basic truths is by extension the rejection of the truth/Christ as a whole. It is only God who knows when a man comes to this point and is why the scriptures states that God then gives them over to..[their sins]. Yet in that 'giving over' we must acknowledge that God was at work in their lives, He was revealing truth to them, and then at their rejection He leaves them be.

 

[Amy.G]

Tom, Allan, I think you both have summed up what I was trying to say. :thumbsup:

Tom, you are right that God is not obligated to offer mercy to us. If He was, I guess it wouldn't be mercy. That's what's so great about grace. I don't deserve it in any way.

I do believe scripture clearly shows that God gives light to every man and it's man's responsibility to receive it, otherwise he may never receive any more light. Certainly God can and does give more light to people we would think have completely rejected Him. I use Nineveh as an example. But He is not obligated to do so and I think we need to be aware of that, lest we become arrogant in our thinking.


Thanks for your input guys!

 

[Me4Him]

How those will be judged who never heard until the arrival of Paul and Barnabas is for another discussioin. But it seems plain that there are some who have never heard, even today.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

I'm not going to attempt to explain how God is going to judge the people who don't have the law,

I do know where there is no law, sin is not imputed, but these verses "Imply" that all people have a basic knowledge of "good/evil", written on the heart, which is what Satan told Adam Eve they would know good/evil.

No one goes to heaven except through Jesus, law or no law, so how God judges these people according to law, and without knowledge of Jesus,

I won't even venture a guess. :BangHead: :laugh: