Are the five points Biblical or man made?

[zrs6v4]

Go back to scripture and you find only two different reasons (though both are actaully one and the same only lesser and greater) people are condemned/damned. 1. is rejection of the general truths revealed by God Himself to them.. and 2. Rejection of the gospel..

I see that people are born rejecting God through general revelation which all are already under condemnation for. I also see people who hear the gospel are under condemnation for it as well, but I would say already were before they heard the gospel and had a choice to choose Christ.

If there is condemnation AT ALL in rejection of the gospel or even the lesser spiritual truths God reveals which lead to the full gospel then logically you must conclude that rejection has great bearing on damnation and acceptance upon salvation. .

rejecting God is a sin. So is everything not in faith. So I would say, to correct my earlier point, is that no matter what an unbeliever does he has no excuse. whether he is sinning by knowing the gospel and rejecting it or whether he is sinning under the general revelation and has not yet heard the gospel.

IF it were not then it would have NO, I repeat NO bearing on why they are damned. And therefore there would be no reason for God to even show these people anything because their belief or rejection would be meaningless to God and their eternal destiny. However scripture speaks absolutely to the contary (2 Thes 2:10-12).

Allan I think you have brought that up before, but I do have a question as I read that through. In the simplest form, how do you and I not fall into that category of wicked who hate truth when in reality we reject truth all day more than we accept it and be obedient. Not to judge you or anyone, but man in general is in opposition to God and rejects truth all the time and should be rejected. I could be looking at it completely wrong and have missed the context, but I hate the fact that I continually reject Gods word more than not, even though I really dont want to and fear it.

See even here you prove my point. How has man sinned, brother.
He can only do so if he knows what is truth and choose to rebel against it. Thus you have man being condemned for rejection of the truth just like Web stated. And all those truths the extensions of Christ Jesus the Lord who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Thus to reject even those lesser ones which are not per-say the gospel they are involved in and apart of the gospel message itself. .

My point was that we are not condemned for rejecting the payment Christ made, but rather for all of the other times we rejected God by not submitting to what our inner man knew was right and wrong. My point is that we were already under condemnation before we heard the gospel. Yes I also agree that rejecting the gospel leads up to more condemnation. I just dont see in Scripture that we arent condemned until we reject the gospel. I apologize if I came across wrong by the way..

No they are 'under' condemnation but they are not yet condemned.


And that is point in spades. They are condemned not by the law but rejection of it and thus Christ who is the perfection of the Law personified.

I guess we agree in different terms. If people are sinning and breaking Gods law then you may conclude that it is rejection of Christ whom they may not have heard of. I would agree with that. My arguement was that they are under condemntion before they get a chance to be saved.

 

[zrs6v4]

If everything was predestine before the foundation of the world, then Adam/Eve didn't have a "Choice",

so, Why would God blame/hold them accountable for sin entering the world???

if Jesus died that the whole world might be saved by faith in Jesus, yet some refuse to believe,

Are they condemned for being a sinner or remaining a sinner by refusing to believe???

As many as Adam made sinners, Jesus can save, Grace exceeds sin, all sin.

This "view" that God predestine some to condemnation must begin with the predestination of Adam/Eve to sin, without a choice, and it's wrong.

and this view that the whole world can't be "REDEEMED" through Faith in Jesus because of predestination is wrong as well,

Jesus can't die for the sins of the whole world, that the whole world might be saved,

while at the same time, God's predestination is withholding the Grace from certain people that prevents them from being saved.

Predestination starting with Adam/Eve, contradicts scripture.

Predestination=make God out to be lying,
Foreknowledge= doesn't

That's the difference between the two.

first off my comment may be easily confused. Yes we are undercondemnation for rejecting Christ. But one doesnt have to hear the gospel to reject Christ. In my understanding we already are rejecting him before we hear the gospel and understand it. Therefore those who dont hear the gospel have no excuse due to the general revelation on the inner witness on the heart and through creation.

question 1- Romans 9:11-24. thats my opinion

question 2- They are condemned already for being a sinner and still condemned when they reject him, unless they believe and be saved.

-Amen- God's grace is sufficient.

-I think whatever view you hold (God chooses us or we choose Him in salvation) predestination is unavoidable because it is mentioned numerous times in Scripture and any route you take God made people for destruction based on either 1- His Will or 2- our choice of rejecting Him (I think both hold true to some degrees by the way)

- predestination is very tricky and can easily be misunderstood. God never turns people down but there own sin and filth turns God away all the time non stop. I think its clear that God doesnt prevent people from faith and dependance upon Him, but their sin does, or themselves. Now God doesnt owe grace to anyone, but rather wrath. I agree that God is a merciful God, but Grace isnt something we can just walk all over, it begins with and ends with God, and nothing of our doing. So for God to withhold grace would be right and I couldnt say a thing because it is not fair that Jesus took my sin although it was necessary to fulfill my righteousness by faith in His work.

I think we'd agree that Jesus beauty is infinite. So, before a perfect judge, take a thousand newborn babies and set them on one side and you on the other. The judge says the babies are innocent and you are guilty by death for your sin. Then he says I can take your sin and have mercy on you by putting the wrath on the babies instead of you, what do you say? I hope that perspective although my illustration is to show the beauty of Jesus and how its infinitely greater than 1,000 babies. So in my mind I deserve hell and cant bear to think Jesus paid it all, but He is the only one who could make it right. With that being said He holds the right to withhold all the grace he wants. Now predestination may not be something we go around preaching but is a part of the decreed will of God. predestination flows out of foreknowledge however it is defined in your eyes which Im sure you know.

 

[Amy.G]

I see that people are born rejecting God through general revelation which all are already under condemnation for.

I don't see that at all. Certainly not from my own experience. As far back as I am able to remember, as a very young child, I believed in God. I believed that God was creator. I believed that the world was made by God. I believed this based on what I observed. I was not raised in a Christian home, so there were no biblical truths being taught that I am aware of.

My belief in a creator did not save me, but I think based on what I read in scripture that God revealed more to me because of that basic belief in Him as creator.

 

[webdog]

We are told that in Adam we were made sinners, and in Christ we are made righteous.

How? The "so as" connects the two. If we are born sinners in Adam, we must also be born righteous in Christ. If we are in Christ through faith, then "so as" we are made sinners through Adam...by sinning. A sinner is one who sins.

In Adam we were made subject to condemnation, in Christ we are given the free gift of righteousness and are thus freed from that condemnation.

Again, "in Adam"...how was Adam condemned? By sinning. "In Adam" we are also condemned by doing the exact thing Adam did. We are "in Christ" by sharing in His death and resurrection through faith, not by being born.

Whether the gospel reaches one's ear or not, that man is under condmenation. Why? He's a sinner. He's a sinner by nature. He sins in action proving his nature.

One is not a sinner by nature, one by nature sins. His actions prove the taint of sin over his entire being, but he is made a sinner in the same way Adam was...by breaking God's law, not by being concevied. In the same way a rapist is one who rapes, and a murderer is one who murders (both sins), a sinner is one who sins. Nobody says "I'm not a rapist because I raped that woman, I committed that rape because I'm a rapist"

 

[RAdam]

How about Romans 5:13 and 14 - "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

First, notice that death, which Paul had said in the previous verse came into the world by that sin of Adam, reigned even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Yet you say we are made sinners when we do sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression. How, if you are correct, did sin reign over them? They must have still been sinners. But, they hadn't sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. They must have, therefore, been sinners by nature.

Now, also notice the Adam was a figure of Christ. Right after Paul says this he then jumps right into a comparison between what Adam did and what Christ did. Look at what he writes. Verse 15: "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." Through the offence of Adam "many be dead." Verse 16: "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." Judgement was by that one act that brough sin and death into the world to condemnation, but the free gift of Christ's righteousness covers many offences, not only that of Adam but also our personal sins against God. Verse 17: "For is by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." By one man's offence death reigned. Verse 18: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." By the offence of Adam judgement came upon us to condemnation, in like manner by the righteousness of Christ the free gift came upon us unto justification. Verse 19: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Notice this. We were made sinners by that one man's disobedience. We were made sinners in Adam. We didn't become sinners by our own person sin, we were made sinners by his sin. Why? Because he represented us. When he sinned and fell, we fell with him. But, Paul says he was a figure of him that was to come, Christ. Christ represented a people too. In like manner to the fact that those represented in Adam were subject to the penalties for his disobedience, those represented in Christ are partakers of the blessings that stem from His obedience. Death reigned, many be dead, many were made sinners, judgement came upon all to condemnation in Adam. But, in Christ, we reign in life, the gift of righteousness hath abounded unto many, many offences are covered, many are made righteous, and the free gift came upon all He represented unto justification of life. Truly "where sin abounded grace did much more abound: that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Chrsit our Lord."

 

[webdog]

Death cam to all men through Adam...not the moniker of sinner.

 

[RAdam]

I repeat, "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."

 

[zrs6v4]

I don't see that at all. Certainly not from my own experience. As far back as I am able to remember, as a very young child, I believed in God. I believed that God was creator. I believed that the world was made by God. I believed this based on what I observed. I was not raised in a Christian home, so there were no biblical truths being taught that I am aware of.

My belief in a creator did not save me, but I think based on what I read in scripture that God revealed more to me because of that basic belief in Him as creator.

Im not saying general revelation can save, rather, It condemns. We are only saved through special revelation which is the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why people who dont hear are without excuse. I agree with you on this

 

[Amy.G]

Im not saying general revelation can save, rather, It condemns. We are only saved through special revelation which is the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why people who dont hear are without excuse. I agree with you on this

How does general revelation condemn? It is by the grace of God that He reveals Himself through creation. We are condemned for rejecting the light God gives us (unbelief), which is the only unforgivable sin.

 

[zrs6v4]

To take it one step further, if you want to look at it this way, we rejected God by knowing Him through creation and our conscience. Therefore we've all rejected God at some point. Now rejecting the Gospel will secure the fact that there is no way for us to escape our condemnation. Sadly, I knew the Gospel for 11 years, rejecting it in heart, before God used it to turn my heart. truly I didnt understand and connect it to reality and my life because the power of sin had me bound. I believe by Gods great power and grace he set me free.

 

[zrs6v4]

How does general revelation condemn? It is by the grace of God that He reveals Himself through creation. We are condemned for rejecting the light God gives us (unbelief), which is the only unforgivable sin.

I think my last post answered that, but just to clarify ask me a question based on my last post please.

 

[Amy.G]

To take it one step further, if you want to look at it this way, we rejected God by knowing Him through creation and our conscience. Therefore we've all rejected God at some point.

Who is we? I have never rejected God as creator, but it was many years before I received His Son as Savior. God gives everyone the same light. He reveals Himself to all men through the things He has created.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Some reject truth, some receive it.

 

[zrs6v4]

Who is we? I have never rejected God as creator, but it was many years before I received His Son as Savior. God gives everyone the same light. He reveals Himself to all men through the things He has created.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Some reject truth, some receive it.

I changed "we" to "they", I didnt mean you personally

people knew God as creator yet they still sinned even if they tried to be holy. It is possible, but impossible for people due to their nature. people knew God existed yet they kept sinning by not submitting to Him. Therefore because they knew him and sinned they deserve a penalty for sin= death/wrath/punishment.

Or because they had the law written on our hearts and yet ignored it they are guilty.

What happens when they see the command to be holy or to be perfect and look back on their life....... condemnation, because they see they fell short... so "what shall I do" they say.... believe in the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of sins through His atonement and you shall be saved.. faith comes by hearing the Word of Christ... he is who we take rest in and are saved from our burden.

 

[zrs6v4]

Amy- also

I never rejected God as creator or Jesus as Savior (When I heard it). I believed both truths. I continued on it sin because although I knew I was a sinner I didnt quite understand/comprehend that. I prayed to recieve Christ at 11 and never had faith in Jesus as my Savior and never knew Him although He was always right there before me everyday. I knew my sin was wrong and what I had done was wrong but i was careless and un repentant. Then I came to the heart knowledge of Jesus and understood my sin to make a long story short. Now this is my personal testimony, but this is why I think it is important to teach the Holiness of the Law of God and what it has to do with the Gospel.

So my point is that even though I thought I accepted Him as Savior, I actually didnt because accepting Him is having faith in Him.

thought some more, hehe

so the Law is what drove me to the cross and if Christ took the Law away then why do we go to Him? Im not sure you disagree..

 

[webdog]

I repeat, "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."

"Were made"...not conceived, born, created.

 

[RAdam]

Two things. First we were made sinners. By what? By Adam's sin. That was the cause, the instrument, the means of us being made sinners. Not our sin, his sin.

When? In Eden. This is representation. Adam represented us. When he sinned and fell, we sinned and fell as well. It was counted to us as if we had sinned too. When your representative casts a vote in Congress or your state legislature, it is counted as if you had cast that vote. The bible says of us, "they are altogether become filthy". Question? When we were altogether? In Adam in the Garden of Eden in a representative sense. Abel and Cain were made sinners the same time you are I were, at the moment Adam partook of that fruit.

You may raise objections to this, but consider the comparison. You were represented in Adam, and what he did was counted to you as if you had done that as well. In like manner, you were represented by Christ. When He walked through this world in the likeness of sinful flesh and went to Calvary, He represented you. What He did, living righteously, was counted to you as if you had done those things as well. In like manner that the sinful condition was imputed to you is the righteousness of Christ imputed to you. In a legal, representative sense we were made sinners in Eden but made righteous at Calvary.

 

[webdog]

Two things. First we were made sinners. By what? By Adam's sin. That was the cause, the instrument, the means of us being made sinners. Not our sin, his sin.

You have just thrown personal accountability out the window. Through Adam, death was passed on...and everything was tainted by sin, our natures included. Every aborted fetus or child that dies would have to perish using your model.

You may raise objections to this, but consider the comparison. You were represented in Adam, and what he did was counted to you as if you had done that as well.

Again, "so as" connects Adam and Christ in the passage. If it's one way for Adam, it is the same way with Christ. If I sinned in Adam without actually sinning, then I am also in Christ without faith.

 

[Me4Him]

How about Romans 5:13 and 14 - "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

First, notice that death, which Paul had said in the previous verse came into the world by that sin of Adam, reigned even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Yet you say we are made sinners when we do sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression. How, if you are correct, did sin reign over them? They must have still been sinners. But, they hadn't sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. They must have, therefore, been sinners by nature.

Before Adam/Eve sinned, they were kept alive by "Spirit",

After they sinned, they were kept alive by "Blood",


To get back to the original state of creations, we must "Shed the blood" for the "Spirit" to return.

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

That is we "crucify the body of sin" (shed the blood) so we can be "Born again" by the "Spirit".

Our's is a "Spiritual sacrifice" rather than "literal", as Jesus's was, but it's Conforming to his image.


We're all born in a "Body" (flesh) kept alive by "Blood", and condemned because of the blood, which can't inherit heaven.

Adam/Eve sin condemned "ALL FLESH", but their sin "DID NOT" condemn any other "SOUL".

A sin is a "Deliberate/willful" transgression of the law, if you don't know your act is a violation of the law, sin is not imputed.

Adam/Eve "knew" the law, "Don't eat", those who sinned after Adam and before the law, didn't deliberately/willfully transgress the law because they didn't know the law.

A child isn't held accountable for sin until it "KNOWS" the law and deliberately sins.

No law/no sin, once saved, you're not under the law, (no law) this is why you have "Eternal salvation", no sin imputed. (OSAS)


Death still reigns over all flesh today, it's appointed by God for man "ONCE" to die because of the flesh, but no second death (GWT) is appointed by God for any soul. (lost/hell)

Flesh is the cause of sin and it's the flesh/blood we have to overcome/crucify before the spirit will return,

Adam/Eve knew the law, had a choice, and went from Spirit to blood,

we know the law, Jesus made a choice possible, go from blood back to spirit, or keep the blood.

BBL.

 

[BaptistBob]

If anyone in existence can come to Christ and choose salvation, explain this text to me. Isaiah 26:10 - "Let favor be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord." When the wicked are made partakers of common grace, for instance, they aren't thankful, they don't glorify God.

I'm agnotic on certain parts of this issue, so please don't include me, unless you want to get bored to death.

However, in response to your question above, here's what's said just before the verse you quote:


When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.

The point being that some WILL learn righteousness, turn from their evil ways (Is. 55:7) and God will have mercy upon them. The wicked are those who persist in wickedness at whatever point they are at and will not be humbled. Some turned back long before, but these persist. In this case, God's continued "favor" (Is 26:10) would perpetuate a disfunctional relationship with these people.

 

[Jarthur001]

Again, "in Adam"...how was Adam condemned? By sinning. "In Adam" we are also condemned by doing the exact thing Adam did. We are "in Christ" by sharing in His death and resurrection through faith, not by being born.


One is not a sinner by nature, one by nature sins.

Which is pretty much what Pelagius said...

".....we are born neither good or bad, but with a capacity for either and as without virtue, so without vice and....."

Pelagius "Defence of the will"

The church called this idea not a mere error, but a "deadly heresy".

The great Ambrose himself condemned Pelagius LINK


Another LINK

Where you will find Pelagius and his doctrines

a) Pelagius (c. 354 - after 418) was a monk from Britain (still part of Rome), but not a clergyman. He was a Bible teacher in Rome from about 380-410 -- we would call him a Bible study leader. He ministered to various aristocratic circles, and wrote commentaries on the Bible. He was well respected for his high moral character, even by his opponents.

b) He took exception to some tendencies he saw in Augustine's writing, especially the saying in the Confessions, "Give what you command, and command what you choose." This sounded like fatalistic teaching to him. He denied that God would command something that was not in the ability of man to do. He blamed the lax moral climate of the Roman Christians on teachings of grace such as this.

c) When the Goths attacked Rome in 410, Pelagius, like many others, left the city. He ended up in Africa, in a branch of the church which was heavily influenced by Augustine's leadership.

d) By this time he had several disciples in different areas. His teachings were identified as:

1) Denial of original sin (i.e. depravity or corruption) inherited from Adam. Each person is born as a new, free agent with the same powers of choice and responsibilities as Adam.

2) Denial of original guilt received from Adam's sin. Among other things, this called into question the necessity of infant baptism, since there was nothing an infant needed to be baptized for. However, Pelagius himself held that infant baptism was good and should continue, though not for the remission of infant sins.

3)Affirmation of the ability of men to be free from sin. Consequently, the denial of the necessity of God's working in order to accomplish freedom from sin. The power is in us, even if God helps.

e) North African bishops began condemning Pelagius and his views. Around 412 he went to Palestine, where the Eastern clergy were more sympathetic to free will, but also where the Western biblical scholar Jerome lived, who began to stir up trouble for Pelagius in that region.

f) After some confusion with Popes and councils(1), Pelagius may have left Palestine. He disappeared from history and possibly died in Egypt. Pelagianism was condemned at the ecumenical council of Ephesus in 431 along with Nestorianism, but there wasn't much examination of Pelagianism at that council. Rather, Nestorius had welcomed some Pelagians to Constantinople and therefore the two heresies were associated in the bishops' minds.