Are the Greek/Russian orthodox Valid Christian Churches?

[Thinkingstuff]

Fair enough. The Sriptures contain all the information we need to be saved. You are correct that they cannot in themselves save us. It is God who saves us, through faith in Christ of whom the Scriptures testify (John 5:39).

Steve

Though on the whole I'm in agreement, I'm not sure I would say the passage goes as far as to say

The Sriptures contain all the information we need to be saved.

It may, it may not. This passage isn't clear on that matter. Its clear that the scriptures will lead us in the direction of salvation. Or make us wise conserning it. But all? I think the jury is still out on that one.

 

[WestminsterMan]

snip...

If I am wrong, prove it! I have posted the evidence three times now and none of you dare handle it straight on! Why is that if I am so obviously wrong? Put up or shut up!

Well doc, I addressed one of those postings already (remember Facts 1, 2, and 3) and showed that facts 1 & 3 were taken out of context. You may not agree with me, but to say that I didn't address your points directly is just simply false. You appear to have a very selective memory
there doc.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

This passage isn't clear on that matter. Its clear that the scriptures will lead us in the direction of salvation. Or make us wise conserning it. But all? I think the jury is still out on that one.

This is almost unbelievable statement you make! The whole gospel of John is directly stated to be written for that very purpose (Jn. 20:29-30).

I find it more than absurd that you would even question the sufficieny of Scripture to teach the doctrine of salvation, to present the gospel of salvation????

If it is sufficient to make you "wise unto salvation" but falls short of providing the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation what kind of wisdom is it?

Surely you jest????? Surely you are not serious? If you are serious then the gospel is not the power of God unto salvation? If you are serious then the Word of God does reveal the gospel of salvation? Surely you are either jesting or on prescribed medicene??

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well doc, I addressed one of those postings already (remember Facts 1, 2, and 3) and showed that facts 1 & 3 were taken out of context. You may not agree with me, but to say that I didn't address your points directly is just simply false. You appear to have a very selective memory
there doc.

WM

That was on the subject of idolatry not Isaiah 8:16 and whether Scripture is complete and sufficient and thus "MORE SURE" than oral tradition of even a LIVING apostle!

In regard to Facts 1,2, and 3, to be charitable, your attempts were not even logical much less scriptural replies.

I attempted to drop this discussion and just charitable allow it to be an impasse but you don't seem to want to do that. Very well, then, bring it on!

Since you did not address Isaiah 8 but an entirely different subject altogether then the challenge is still extended. Not one of you has even attempted to address the evidence I presented or show exegetically where any statement I made was in error. I still await..........

 

[Dr. Walter]

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul says the scriptures "are able" to make readers wise "UNTO" salvation "THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS" but you say that is questionable and the jury is still out! I will believe Paul.

Paul says the scriprues are "PROFITIBLE" for doctrine, reproof, correction and "instruction in righteousness" that the man of God may be "THOROUGH FURNISHED UNTO ALL" but you all but salvation as you think the jury may still be out. I will believe Paul.

The stated intent of John for writing his gospel was that the readers would be saved and yet you say that may or may not be the case, the jury is still out. I will believe John.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The old Whore must attack the Word of God in order to defend its uninspired, contradictory, heresy filled traditions. When God destroys this old Whore all of heaven will rejoice that the enemy of God has finally been silenced. Yes, I hate this foul and blasphemeous antichrist institution with a passion but I don't hate those who are deceived by it. They need to "come out of her my people" and be separated from her - her doom is coming.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Again, if you are serious about this debate below is the exposition of Isaiah 8:16 I have provided to substantiate my position. Please show where I am in error by pointing out exegetical fallacies in my interpretation. No personal opinions please - just exegetical based facts!

Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
Isaiah 7:14-9:6 is Messanic in nature. That is not personal opinion based upon tradition that is factual as the beginning text (Isa. 7:14) and the concluding text (Isa. 9:6) are recognized by nearly all scholars in all denominations as Messanic texts.

Isaiah 8:16-20 is found within this Messanic prophetic framework. For example, Isaiah 8:14-15 is directly quoted in the New Testament and applied to Jesus Christ. Isaiah 8:18 is directly quoted in Hebrews 2 and applied contextually within Hebrew 2 to the apostles of Christ.

Exegetically "my disciples" in Isaiah 8:16 is the same persons in Isaiah 8:18 as "the children" which is directly applied by the writer of Hebrews to the apostles of Christ.

Isaiah 8:16 is immediately preceded by Messanic prophecy (vv. 14-15) and immediately followed by Messanic prophecy (v. 18) and furthermore exegetically inseparable from both in regard to "my disciples" and "the children."

So the accusation that my intepretation of Isaiah 8:16 is based upon "tradition" or my own personal opinion is false! It is based upon sound principles of exegesis and confirmed by New Testament writers to be Messanic in nature.

It prophetically predicts that the Biblical canon consisting of "the law" or the Old Testament prophets beginnng with Moses and ending with Malichi along with the "testimony" which in Messanic context refers to the written "testimony"of the apostles (Rev. 1:3) given them by Jesus Christ will be completed, or to "bind up and seal" and it will be done "among my disciples" which are contextually identified by the writer of hebrews as the apostles.

Jesus predicted the same thing in the upper room discourse when he said that the Holy Spirit would lead his apostles into "all truth" and that it would be through their WRITTEN "words" as "scripture" (Jn. 17:17) future generations would come to know Christ (Jn. 17:20).

The Apostles recognized this task and recognized each others writings as "scripture" (2 Pet. 3:15-17; 1 Thes. 2:19; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

The last living apostle began his final written epistle with recognition that he was providing the FINAL END TIME revelation of the "testimony" (Rev. 1:2) provided by Jesus Christ and when finishing it sealed it in obedience to Isaiah 8:16.

In Isaiah 8:16 with the prediction of the completed written revelation the next anticipated revelation after the sealing of scripture is the revelation of Christ from heaven:

16 ¶ Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

John the one who sealed it up and bound it up with his final written scripture conveys the very same thing as Isaiah 8:16-17 in regard to the next anticipated revelation from heaven:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 ¶ He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Moreover, with the final addition of Revelation the Bible reads as you would expect a FINISHED revelation would read.

Genesis provides the beginning of all things
Revelation provides the end of all things

Sin is introduced in Genesis and sin is no more in Revelation

The garden of eden is introduced in Genesis and appears again in Revelation

Satan enters the world in Genesis and Satan is cast out forever in Revelation

Creation of the first world in genesis and a new creation in Revelation

The Sun and moon are introduced in Genesis the sun and moon no more in Revelation

Genesis provides the complete record of origins while Revelation provides the complete record of endings.

It reads as a finished book would expect to read.


Paul was a prophet, spoke and wrote under inspiration and in his final epistle he anticipated the completion of the Biblical canon and thus could say that written scripture was SUFFICIENT for ALL RIGHTOUSNESS, for correction, for instruction, for reproof that the man of God may be THOROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS and yet he did not include or mention anything or any need for ORAL TRADITIONS. This is precisely why Peter in his final epistle claimed that WRITTEN prophetic scripture SUPERSEDES his own oral tradition as He claims the written scripture is "MORE SURE" than his own oral traditions:

16 ¶ For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

 

[WestminsterMan]

The old Whore...

Well doc, how would you like it if I called you an old whore?

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

Yes, I hate this foul and blasphemeous antichrist institution with a passion but I don't hate those who are deceived by it. They need to "come out of her my people" and be separated from her - her doom is coming.

Well doc, perhaps some hate your foul and blasphemous antichrist institution with a passion, but they don't hate those who are deceived by it. You need to "come out of her my people" and separate from her-her doom is coming.

You are one pathetic hate filled puritanical non-Christian. May God have mercy on your soul.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are one pathetic hate filled puritanical non-Christian. May God have mercy on your soul.

WM

I see, you have to love Roman Catholocism to be a Christian. There are millions through the dark ages that share my hatred for Rome who were killed by her ungodly hands (I suppose you would deny they were Christians also) just as the scriptures describe her (Rev. 17:6). Heaven will rejoice at her destruction - Rev. 19:1-4.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I see, you have to love Roman Catholocism to be a Christian. There are millions through the dark ages that share my hatred for Rome who were killed by her ungodly hands.

Hatred is the opposite of Christ doc. With this you must deal. Pray that He will forgive you, renew your heart, and create in you an upright spirit.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Hatred is the opposite of Christ doc. With this you must deal. Pray that He will forgive you, renew your heart, and create in you an upright spirit.

WM

No sir! God has a holy hatred and so does Christ and there is no question whatsoever he hates The Great Whore and will rejoice in her destruction - Rom. 18:-14 and so should every child of God hate what God hates.

Indeed, there is no such thing as "love" without a true hatred for what destroys and harms the object of love. David said that he hated every evil way. God says he hates all "workers" of iniquity.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

1 ¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Indeed, there is no such thing as "love" without a true hatred for what destroys and harms the object of love. David said that he hated every evil way. God says he hates all "workers" of iniquity.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Well doc, I know one thing... and that is that God does not hate. He is perfection and is incapable of hate. I think this pretty much sums up your heretical beliefs.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well doc, I know one thing... and that is that God does not hate. He is perfection and is incapable of hate. I think this pretty much sums up your heretical beliefs.

WM

YOU may know that in your own imaginative little world but the scriptures repeatedly claim otherwise. You have no true concept of the God of the Bible.

Ps 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Ps 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Ps 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Pr 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity


Ps 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.

Ps 31:6 I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD.


Ho 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Le 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Am 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.

Ro 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Ps 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Ps 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Ps 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Pr 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:
pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the
froward mouth, do I hate.
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity
Ps 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.
Ps 31:6 I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD

I think you will find that the author of psalms is the one doing the hating and not Go. God harbors no hate.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think you will find that the author of psalms is the one doing the hating and not Go. God harbors no hate.

WM

You mean the man "after God's own heart" can hate and yet be accepted by God, yeah, his words are said with the intent that he beleives God approves his hatred or he could not say that! The Holy Spirit inspired him to say that!

BTW God hates too!

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity


Ho 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Le 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Am 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.

Ro 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity

Where do you think the wrath of God originates? John the Baptists says that all those in unbelief are under the WRATH of God. You think hell is a lovely place or a place where God shows his love for sinners?

God hates the Great Whore and the proof is that He rejoices in its destruction and all heaven join in that rejoicing. I rejoice in the day she will be destroyed and stop deceving mankind.

You mean the man "after God's own heart" can hate and yet be accepted by God, yeah, his words are said with the intent that he beleives God approves his hatred or he could not say that! The Holy Spirit inspired him to say that!

BTW God hates too!

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity


Ho 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Le 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Am 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.

Ro 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

 

[kyredneck]

The identity of the Old Whore is simple to identify.......

Identity of Babylon in Revelation Made Easy


...and FWIW, this is the text of part of the Mass in Rome on March 12, 2000 in which Pope John Paul II offered a Universal Confession of Sins and Request for Forgiveness
http://www.lafond.us/pagans/Papal_Apology/apology.htm

MEMORY AND RECONCILIATION:
THE CHURCH AND THE FAULTS OF THE PAST
December 1999
http://www.lafond.us/pagans/Papal_Apology/MemAndRec.htm

...in other words, the RCC has at least acknowledged and attempted to apologize and ask forgiveness for it's past sins.

Look long and hard for an apology from the Jews.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I understand your eschatological position but do not accept it. Jerusalem was not the city reigning over the kings of the world when John wrote (Rev. 17:18) - Rome was. Neither can Jerusalem fit the economic prosperity described in chapter 18. I understand you spiritualize it. Neither is Jerusalem riding the back of the beast when Christ returns but Rome will.

Identity of Babylon in Revelation Made Easy


...and FWIW, this is the text of part of the Mass in Rome on March 12, 2000 in which Pope John Paul II offered a Universal Confession of Sins and Request for Forgiveness
http://www.lafond.us/pagans/Papal_Apology/apology.htm

MEMORY AND RECONCILIATION:
THE CHURCH AND THE FAULTS OF THE PAST
December 1999
http://www.lafond.us/pagans/Papal_Apology/MemAndRec.htm

...in other words, the RCC has at least acknowledged and attempted to apologize and ask forgiveness for it's past sins.

Look long and hard for an apology from the Jews.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity

Where do you think the wrath of God originates? John the Baptists says that all those in unbelief are under the WRATH of God. You think hell is a lovely place or a place where God shows his destroyed and stop deceving mankind.

Well I have news for you...a God of hate doesn't need nor require love from His creations. His punishment comes from His superabundance of love. If hate has anything to do with Him then He is no God at all.

WM