Are the Greek/Russian orthodox Valid Christian Churches?

Your issue is not with me. I just quoted the scriptures and that was your reaction to what I merely quoted. Your issue is with the scriptures.

 

No - I have issues with your interpretations of said scripture.

WM

 

I gave no interpretation at all - just quoted them and they say what they say. I guess the word "hate" and "abhor" means love in your dictionar, huh? Do you tell your wife "I hate" you and "I abhor" you when you want to communicate your love??

I guess to be "under the wrath" of God is loving you huh? I guess hell is really a place for God to show special love huh?

 

No... If God is a God of hate, then He has not love. A loving God does not send people to hell... Rather, those who hate God by their hatred of Him, send themselves to Hell.

WM

 

And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 17:18 ('The great city' is clearly identified in 11:8)

.....for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall in no wise see mourning. Rev 18:7 (of course she's no queen and is indeed a widow; she killed her husband, Christ the King)

...but she had authority over the kings of the land:

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitudes and to his disciples,
2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat: Mt 23

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1:6

But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God`s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Pet 2:9

...and that authority was removed from her and she was cast out:

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

The fact is there was an incredible thriving international economy of the Jewish religion with huge amounts of riches being sent to Jerusalem. Edersheim delves somewhat into this and also writes quite extensively on the influence and connection and close relationship between the Jews in Babylon (who far out numbered those in Palestine, most stayed under Cyrus) and the Jews in Palestine. Josephus refers to the immense wealth of the Jews several times. Here's an excerpt from 'The Parousia' by James Stuart Russell:

“After this follows a solemn and pathetic dirge, if it may be so called, over the fallen city, whose last hour is now come. The kings or rulers of the land, the merchant-traders and the seamen who knew her in the plentitude of her power and glory, now lament over her fall. The royal city, the mart of trade and wealth, is wrapt in flames, and the mariners and merchants who were enriched by her traffic stand afar off, beholding the smoke of her burning, and crying, ‘What city is like unto this great city?’ The description given in this chapter of the wealth and luxury of the mystic Babylon might seem scarcely appropriate to Jerusalem were it not that we have in Josephus ample evidence that there is no exaggeration even in this highly-wrought representation. More than once the Jewish historian speaks of the magnificence and vast wealth of Jerusalem. It is very remarkable that the inventory of the spoils taken from the treasury of the temple contains almost every one of the articles enumerated in this lamentation over the fallen city,---‘Gold, silver, precious stones, purple, scarlet, cinnamon, odours, ointments, and frankincense.”

Titus to the Jews at Jerusalem, 70 AD (from Josephus, Wars of the Jews):

“.... It can therefore be nothing certainly but the kindness of us Romans which hath excited you against us; who, in the first place, have given you this land to possess; and, in the next place, have set over you kings of your own nation; and, in the third place, have preserved the laws of your forefathers to you, and have withal permitted you to live, either by yourselves, or among others, as it should please you: and, what is our chief favor of all we have given you leave to gather up that tribute which is paid to God (27) with such other gifts that are dedicated to him; nor have we called those that carried these donations to account, nor prohibited them; till at length you became richer than we ourselves,....”

!?!? See verse 1:1; the entire book is 'signified'.

him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: Acts 2:23

She rode the back of Rome to have Him murdered.

 

Your last statement contradicts your first commentary statement about Rev. 17:18 but confirms my position that the woman who rode on the back of the beast is Rome not Jerusalem.

 

No creature has the ability to cast themselves or anyone else into hell. God casts them into hell:

Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The final judgement is not a self-imposed judgement but the Judgement by God.

 

No it doesn't; her riding the beast as 'Mystery Babylon' conforms perfectly with the OT description of her:

Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans; for thou shalt no more be called The mistress of kingdoms. Isa 47:5

I reiterate, she colluded with Rome to have Christ murdered; and she's never apologized for it.

I submit to you a conservative, historical interpretation of the seven heads from 'A Brief Commentary On Revelation', by Edward H. Overby, A.B., B.D., D.D., then Professor at Lexington Baptist College (a sound conservative school which is now defunct, and sadly missed by many). Excerpts:

“The 7 kings each represent a kingdom or political power over which they reign. “7 heads”, “7 mountains”, “7 kings”, all point to the same truth, that there are 7 political powers which in order will control the beast government of Satan. Egypt was the first of the 7, followed in order by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes. Each is represented by a head, a mountain, a king.”

“In verses 12-14 the 10 horns are explained. The 10 horns represent 10 kings, 12, which represent 10 kingdoms. In the time of John these 10 “have received no kingdom as yet.” Since this is also true of the 7th head, verse 10, and the only one that had not controlled the beast up to John's time, then it follows that the 10 horns must be on the 7th head. The 7th head with ten horns which was to come and rule the beast after John's day is different from all the heads before it. This is one head having the same basic civilization and being the same basic people, the Germanic tribes, yet they are many, 10 horns. The Germanic tribes were divided politically into a number of separate governments ruling at the time. There were 10 that originally set up kingdoms in the former Roman empire. These ten developed and changed in many ways throughout history. They were divided and subdivided into many many kingdoms and they consolidated and united and conquered so that they were just a few kingdoms. Their boundaries have changed greatly through the years. These changes we have mentioned are of no significance as far as the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are concerned. The changes have confused some as to the identity of the 10 horns.”

“Other scripture can help us interpret. In Daniel 8, the Persian empire is represented as a ram with two horns which represented the Medes and Persians at the beginning of this empire. The horn of the Medes loses it's power in time and Persia really controls it all. The changes that brought this about are not explained in the vision, since it is not necessary to accomplish the Lord's purpose in the passage. The Lord explains only the beginning so that we can identify the Ram.”

“In Daniel 8, the Grecian empire is represented by a he goat with one horn, Alexander the Great. When Alexander the Great dies the horn is broken and 4 horns take it's place. This is what happened at the beginning after Alexander's death. His empire was divided into 4 kingdoms, but this didn't last long. Soon it became 3 kingdoms, and there were many boundary changes. The Lord does not explain all these details, for it is not necessary. Still most Bible scholars readily see this is the Grecian empire regardless of the omissions of such details, especially since the Lord says the he goat is Greece.....”

“Daniel 8 can help us understand the 10 horns of the 7th head in Revelation 17. The 6th head was in John's day so it must be the Roman empire. The one that followed the fall of Rome was the Germanic tribes made up of 10 horns or kingdoms to begin with. Some secular historians list ten at the beginning of the power of the Germanic tribes in their history books. In reading these books it is obvious they know nothing about Revelation. They list 10 only because they found them in their historical research. Thes 10 changed soon and have greatly changed through the years in the number of governments, boundaries, etc. But the Bible indicates there were 10 to begin with and this is to help us idnetify this 7th head.”

Your RCC that you are looking for in Revelation would lie within the ten Germanic tribes (Holy Roman Empire) of the seventh head; these ten kings were to make war with the Lamb, and to hate the Harlot and eat her flesh and burn her with fire. Sound familiar? Ring a bell?

 

More excerpts from Brother Overbey's book, 'A Brief Commentary On Daniel':

“The beasts representing the governments of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, (Rome is first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes) have been presented describing them in a very general way......”

“The ten horns represent kings and their kingdoms which will take over the kingdom of Rome. Ten Germanic tribes did this. They were the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards.”

 

As 'Mystery Babylon', the Great Harlot, the mistress of kingdoms, the unfaithful wife of Jehovah:

26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians, thy neighbors, great of flesh; and hast multiplied thy whoredom, to provoke me to anger.
28 Thou hast played the harlot also with the Assyrians, because thou wast insatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet thou wast not satisfied.
29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy whoredom unto the land of traffic, unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.
32 A wife that committeth adultery! that taketh strangers instead of her husband! Ezek 16

....and those are just a very few of the OT passages referring to apostate Judaism as the unfaithful wife.

 

TO THE READERS OF THIS THREAD, this is a retraction and an apology to Dr. Walter. In Post 227 I said, “You have a habit of skipping around in Bible translations, picking and choosing the one that suits your purpose for the moment. Rick Warren does this also and he loses a lot of credibility in the process.”

I made this accusation because in Post 221 Dr. Walter had quoted something that looked like 2 Timothy 3:17. I recognized he had used all KJV quotes up to that time and I knew that what he posted (“that the "man of God may be thoroughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS”) was not exactly 2 Timothy 3:17 in the KJV which says, “That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” Therefore I just assumed he was skipping around with different translations.

In comparing Dr. Walter’s quote to the actual KJV, which I did only after Doc’s vehement remonstrance, it is clear that he was quoting the KJV and had merely left out a word. So, Dr. Walter, I will retract what I said about your Bible shopping and apologize if it caused you any heartburn or grief.

I stand by my other three observations, however, and would hope that you will come out of your cocoon and look around the real world. Visit some other churches; take some classes at a seminary like SBTS, or Dallas Theological Seminary, or maybe Denver Theological Seminary. You will find that there is a whole world of people out there who love God and who are called according to His purpose.

 

Apology accepted.

I attended Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary where 99.9% of the courses for my Masters of Theology degree were completed. I did my Master disertation at Landmark Baptist Theological Seminary where I obtained my Master's degree. So I have been outside my "cacoon."

Furthermore, I have never denied there are genuine loving Christians in nearly ALL denominations including the Roman Catholic Church. That has never been an issue with me, regardless of what you imagine.

However, I strongly and vehemently oppose the Roman Catholic position on oral traditions as the basis to approach and interpet the scriptures. It is an utterly false doctrine that no true Christian should even entertain much less embrace. And I even more vehemently oppose the notion that the Scriptures are not the final authority for faith and practice. That is the absurdity of absudities in my opinion.

 

Oh dear, Dr Walter, you are breathtaking in saying God is a false god....

I believe in God,the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died , and was buried: He descended into hell, the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven , sitteth at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead......raying:

from The Apostles' Creed.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.raying:

part of the dogmatic truths for this Christian.

 

Oh for goodness sake stop being so hysterical! Stop accusing people of lying; in so doing you fall into the same trap as you did earlier of assuming that you know what is in the hearts and minds of others. I intended no deceit towards you but was just calling you on your judgmentalism.

 

I suppose my fellow-Anglicans Cranmer, Hooper, Ridley and Latimer went to their deaths for their 'Romanism'?

 

When are you going to learn....."Da Man" is the voice of God, so you are always wrong & he is always right.

Warning....look out for flying lightning bolts....:smilewinkgrin:

 

You're talking about two different books two different authors and two different purposes. I'm just noting that the passage I mention says "wise toward salvation" Which doesn't say all but says "wise" which means it leads us in the direction of salvation. I didn't say Scriptures don't contain the knowledge we need to be saved it does in Acts Chapter 2, and followed up with 2 Timothy where Paul says to run the race and finish it. What I did say was the passage quoted "wise toward salvation doesn't imply everything." That idea is read into the passage thus you are reading your view or tradition into it. So you've miss understood what I was getting at.

 

See you've miss read the passage "wise" unto salvation doesn't mean everything known about salvation. Also it notes an aspect of salvation "through faith". It is clear you aren't taking the passage at face value but reading a bias into it. Paul in this passage does not say "everything known about salvation" Furnished unto all means given unto all. Does mean everything about salvation. You again are reading into it your desires rather than rely soley on what the text says. So in short you arn't relying on Paul but your presupositions of what you already believe.

 

Why blaspheme Him then by praying to Mary? Only God is the object of worship. Please don't respond that there is a diffrerence between veneration and worship as there is no Biblical basis for that distinction. Prayer belongs exclusively to God. When you pray and worship Mary you are praying to a false god! Your religion is Mystery Babylon and your god is Babylon's Queen of Heaven or the Madonna.

 

That is not what is implied. What has been shown to you is that you have a hatred of Catholicism which you actually know very little about. Bottner is no authority and neither is Jack Chick and as I've shown the Whore is Jerusalem. Which was destroyed in 70 AD. But Jesus establishes a Kingdom here on earth which is connected to the kingdom in heaven by which we all have entrance if we but believe. The Old world system where pride and arogance and corruption rule the day will be rejoiced over when it is totally done away with. Hate by the way is part of that order.