Thinkingstuff
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What document is that? I can't find anything sighting "Public Eccliastical"
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Are the Greek/Russian orthodox Valid Christian Churches?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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What document is that? I can't find anything sighting "Public Eccliastical"
Here's a link where the RCC seems to admit they did kill off some folks, but found out it was wrong. So much for that "protection from error" deal. eh ?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm
No more so than the Roman Catholic\Western Orthodox Church.
Thomas More was executed for treason. Whether it was a just sentence is another question. I would add that More was himself an eager persecutor of the early Protestants, as was Henry VIII, who burned more Protestants for heresy than he executed Romanists.
You also wrote:-
Bishop Tunstall, a Roman Catholic, staged a public burning of William Tyndale's New Testament in the 1520s, and later the RCC had Tyndale executed.
Steve
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It is a sign of religious devotion. The point however is that we are instructed not to worship images, nor to bow down in front of them. The Orthodox churches seem to think that they get around the 2nd Commandment by having pictures instead of statues, but Deut 4:23 etc seems to forbid any likeness at all.Crabtownboy said:
It seems that bowing and kissing icons is a religious work which the people suppose will gain them merit with God in some way. As I say, it's sad.
Steve
So the board is done despising Calvinists & is back to despising Catholics I see....how very Christ like:laugh:
I agree. What does the Greek or Russian Orthodox churches actually believe and teach?
Carrying this belief to its logical conclusion then the followers of Islam are correct. No likenesses of any kind in paintings. No pictures of Jesus hanging on the walls anywhere or any in Sunday School rooms. Probably no photos of anyone.
Now if you insist that Deut. 4:23 still holds then you have to argue that all the rules in Leviticus also still hold. Do you believe thus?
Crabtownboy is correct. The Old Testament bans images. This would include crosses, pictures of Christ, and the literally millions of relics used in the mass.
He is incorrect in saying the followerrs of Islam are coorect. They follow a false god, who cannot save them.
He is incorrect in saying the followerrs of Islam are coorect. They follow a false god, who cannot save them.
They believe that we are saved by faith, but that faith is an active faith, not mere intellectual assent. If it were, then in the parable of the rich man, Christ would have answered differently.
True Faith involves:
A) Believing in Christ (Acts 16:31)
B) Repenting of sin (St. Mark 1:15)
C) Receiving Christ (St. John 1:12; 6:54)
D) Being Baptized in Christ (I Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3; Titus 3:5; Acts 2:38)
E) Following Christ (St. Matthew 10:38)
F) Confessing Christ (Romans 10:9-10)
These are things that a person with saving faith does (unless of course they die in the process or something).
They distinguish between initial justification that occurs with baptism and justification that occurs when one dies. Like Catholics, they don't separate the idea of justification with that of sanctification. The process in salvation that may be related well to sanctification is theosis, where one becomes free of sin and in better union with God, not that one is God or is a god, but has a better close relationship with God.
Sacraments are ways that we experience God's grace. Because Baptism is the initial sacrament as a Christian and we all need grace, they baptize both young and old into the faith where there is desire. The young, however, are required to be taught the faith as they are fed and educated in other things by the parents.
Here is part of a little write-up I gave someone else about the Orthodox churches.
Short answer on Orthodoxy: Orthodoxy is like Catholic tradition with a Protestant-like common sense to things like salvation. They are trinitarian, apostolic, philosophical rather than legalistic, sacramental, and sometimes cultural.
Long answer: The Orthodox churches are similar to the Catholic church in that they have the seven sacraments, believe in real presence (though not necessarily as defined as the Catholic Transubstantiation), and follow the same idea of apostolic succession of clergy rather than just teaching. Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection in Christ and with Chrismation (equivalent to confirmation) the individual is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Confession is more to get something off of your mind and be assured of absolution, and while the priest is the only one that gives absolution, a spiritual mother or father (individual who is mature in the faith) can hear a confession. Marriage is a sacrament done by the husband and wife in the ceremony, but the Catholics say it is something administered by the priest.* Orthodox do baptize infants of faithful Orthodox members who will be brought up in the faith and typically do not re-baptize incoming Protestants (exception: the Coptic Church), but do require that converts understand the doctrines of the Orthodox church prior to being chrismated and then being allowed to receive communion. Orthodox churches do have saints the way that the Catholics do, but they are not always emphasized in the liturgy and an individual can choose to ask saints for intercession or just those fellow Christian there in person. [This is because the body of Christ is not separated from itself.]
They also differ in that they are not governed by a single pope but by a council of patriarchs who head the individual Orthodox churches (Russian, Greek, Etc.), and in that they don't emphasize works with regards to salvation but speak of grace and faith (in this regard, they are more similar to Protestants, or rather Protestants are more similar to them given the historical ecclesiastic divisions). In Orthodoxy, confession is not based on the seven deadly sins but rather sin is just that, sin, missing the mark. In Orthodoxy, there is a concept of theosis, which I think has some similarities to sanctification. It emphasizes the transformation of nature into a sinless one, one that is by grace what God is by nature (which is not to say that we become gods or exactly like God), and in this, we have communion with God. This is based on 2 Pet. 1:4.
The fourth ecumenical council was the Council of Chalcedon, where monophysitism/miaphysitism was rejected. The Assyrian Church of the East is often considered monophysite (one nature in Christ, one form says that the humanity dissolves into a sea of Christ's divinity, this church left at the 3rd ecumenical council). The Oriental Orthodox churches hold to miaphysitism. Miaphysitism says Christ is both divine and human but merged into one nature (the Copts say this separation of them and the Eastern Orthodox was a matter of translation, but the Eastern Orthodox do not accept this). Eastern Orthodox say He has two individual natures in one person. Both Orthodox churches dispute the filoque in the Nicene Creed and say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, not the Father and the Son, so that the HS and Son are equal in God. The Easterns separated from the Catholics at the 7th council.
One of the most popular prayers in Orthodoxy is the Jesus prayer, something to the effect of "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner," or simply, "Lord have mercy." They do have different times of fasting and celebrate various feast days. The Didache is influential in the practices and faith of the Orthodox church.
*Approximate understanding.
Here are some good websites:
Orthodox Wikipedia:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Main_Page
Greek Orthodox (one of the Eastern Orthodox churches) website that discusses the faith and has a lot of helpful into.
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/
I know there is a lot more that can be said, and some places where digging up Scripture references may either be helpful or result in a discussion of who interprets correctly and stuff, but hopefully you will forgive the fact that this is intended merely as a light overview of Orthodoxy.
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I saw Putin the other day 'make the cross' --- just like a 'real Roman Catholic'.
It was that 'Great' and 'Terrible' Tsar of the Russians [I forgot his name now --- so much for the greatness of men] who fell in love with Rome, who made 'Russian Orthodox' Roman Catholic through and through.
The Greeks are more 'orthodox' only because they still observe 'easter' the 'quarto-decimal' way, that is, on the same seasonal dates the Jews observe passover.
WHAT PROTESTANTS DON'T KNOW, is that the Greek Orthodox Church have "BURIAL (Friday)" while they will have "CRUCIFIXION (Thursday)" and "RESURRECTION (Sabbath)" --- ALWAYS the 'Middle Day' in FULL for "BURIAL Day".
That was the MAIN CAUSE for the SPLIT between the East and the West of Catholicism as TO THIS DAY, it is.
It was that 'Great' and 'Terrible' Tsar of the Russians [I forgot his name now --- so much for the greatness of men] who fell in love with Rome, who made 'Russian Orthodox' Roman Catholic through and through.
The Greeks are more 'orthodox' only because they still observe 'easter' the 'quarto-decimal' way, that is, on the same seasonal dates the Jews observe passover.
WHAT PROTESTANTS DON'T KNOW, is that the Greek Orthodox Church have "BURIAL (Friday)" while they will have "CRUCIFIXION (Thursday)" and "RESURRECTION (Sabbath)" --- ALWAYS the 'Middle Day' in FULL for "BURIAL Day".
That was the MAIN CAUSE for the SPLIT between the East and the West of Catholicism as TO THIS DAY, it is.
Thank you, Anastasia.
In the Long answer, you said:
"Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection in Christ and with Chrismation (equivalent to confirmation) the individual is sealed with the Holy Spirit."
Does sealed with the Holy spirit in the Orthodox church, mean the same as eternal security does in Baptist churches? Or is there a difference?
In the Long answer, you said:
"Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection in Christ and with Chrismation (equivalent to confirmation) the individual is sealed with the Holy Spirit."
Does sealed with the Holy spirit in the Orthodox church, mean the same as eternal security does in Baptist churches? Or is there a difference?
Would you please restate simply what you are saying the cause of the split is? I want to look into that and verify it.
Also, with regard to the Russian church, the date that Easter is celebrated is not nearly as big of an issue as the theological differences between Orthodox and Catholic, otherwise they would not be in communion with other Orthodox churches. I want more information on this because I believe Easter may have moved somewhere for someone, and I know that in the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Armenians in Jerusalem celebrate Christmas on a different date (1/26).
I am assuming that with Putin you mean the hand/which shoulder went first when he crossed himself, because all Orthodox cross themselves, as do some Episcopalians and a few Lutherans. The mere subtly of hand gesture is insufficient to indicate a truly different theology to me. They use different bread. They have services sometimes at different times of day, they celebrate church things on different days if it is specific to their church. I don't know if it was between one group of Orthodox and the other or between various Orthodox churches, but I have read about different ways of crossing ones self. Easterns and Orientals do communion different ways but recognize each others sacraments as valid (even if they have Chalcedonian differences) that separate them.
This wikipage shows that some are no longer in communion (respecting each other as valid Orthodox churches with valid sacraments and willing to commune with one another). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church
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Dr. Walter
New Member
God and His Word is a Catholic basher, all I have to do is quote it and side with it.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You are confusing regeneration with justification. You are confusing the by-products of faith with justification by faith. Intellectual assent has nothing to do with a regenerate and justified saint but is restricted to the unregenerate. There is no such thing as a justified but unregenerate person or a regenerate but unjustified person. However, regeneration and justification are not to be confused as you have confused them. Both are INTERNAL in connection with the heart of man as one provides a NEW heart and the other is the expression of that new heart.
God makes it very clear in Jeremiah that the New covenant includes only those who from the very least to the very greatest as all capable of knowing God for themselves - thus excluding infant baptism altogether.
Jer. 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
You are confusing saving faith with serving faith. Saving faith is not about you or anything you do for God. Saving faith is faith that embraces Jesus Christ and his provision as the only object of hope of salvation while denouncing all personal contributions as unfit to be even compared to Christ and His provision (repentance). Read carefully Romans 3:24-27.
Only the person who has embraced Jesus Christ and his provision as the SOLE and ONLY all-sufficient hope of eternal salvation is fit to serve God "by faith." That is the doctrine of justification by faith. All other religous fanatics are unfit to be baptized, to have communion, to worship, or serve in any kind of capacity whatsoever.
Where there is true justification by faith "in Christ" there is regeneration by the Spirit of God. Both are internal actions produced by the Spirit of God. REgeneration provides the NEW heart and NEW spirit whereas justification provides a NEW standing. It is from regeneration that serving faith originates. Serving faith is the by-product of regeneration and has to do with a changed life but justification by faith has nothing whatsoever to do with you or your life but soley and only with Jesus Christ and His life FOR YOU.
WestminsterMan
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WestminsterMan
New Member
You do know that the "protection from error deal" only applies when the Pope is speaking excathedra right? Hmmmm. Apparently not.
WM
WestminsterMan
New Member
Well then, if that statement is true then you should be able to cite numerous 1st and 2nd century writings to back that up. There are documents from the period but (much to your chagrin I'm sure) they were written by Catholics. You have nothing.
WM
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