...which means, as per my last post, that Rome CANNOT be the Great Whore of Rev 17!
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Are the Greek/Russian orthodox Valid Christian Churches?
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WestminsterMan
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Ok – let’s look at the context:
New International Version (NIV)
Isaiah 53:1-5
1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
This is a prediction of the Christ – that He would be simple in appearance (nothing special) – that He would be despised and tortured – that He would suffer and die for our sake in atonement for our sins.
That verse does NOT state that because Christ was simple in appearance and that we really don’t know what He looked like, that painting a picture of Him is a sin. There is no admonition in that verse at all.
Christ was God in the flesh – no argument here.
Well doc, everyone had better stop painting pictures of the founding fathers, figures in history, and anyone else whose likeness we don’t have for sure. Notice that it says anything and not anyone.
Look - if "God's Law prohibits making any visible image of what man may perceive to be God" then how is it that God, in his instructions on building the Tabernacle just a few chapters later, commanded graven images to be placed on it thus breaking His own law. Hmmmm…
New International Version (NIV)
Exodus 25:10-22
10 “Have them make an ark[a] of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. 12 Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. 13 Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. 14 Insert the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark to carry it. 15 The poles are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed. 16 Then put in the ark the tablets of the covenant law, which I will give you.
17 “Make an atonement cover of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. 18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. 21 Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the tablets of the covenant law that I will give you. 22 There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the covenant law, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.
Ohhh yeah!
Yes. These verses talk about the sin of idolatry, which is completely different from hanging a painting of Christ on my wall.
That’s not an admonition at all against creating a painting of Jesus. The passage is telling the audience (Athenians and foreigners) that humans cannot grasp the nature of God by comparing Him to physical objects.
Context:
New International Version (NIV)
Acts 17:20-30
20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears [Paul], and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.[/quote]
OK. Paul proclaims their ignorance of God and uses their monument to an “UNKNOWN GOD” as an opportunity to explain that the true God transcends physical materials and thus the physical world. That is why he told them that they were ignorant of the very thing that they worshiped. Continuing…
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[a] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
There you have it – Paul has described the true God to them and explained that they “…should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.” They were worshiping an idol made of physical material as if that material was a God. Clearly idolatry.
In otherwords? You mean in your words – not that of scripture.
continued...
WestminsterMan
New Member
continued...
Again… context!
New International Version (NIV)
Numbers 33:45-55
45 They left Iye Abarim and camped at Dibon Gad.
46 They left Dibon Gad and camped at Almon Diblathaim.
47 They left Almon Diblathaim and camped in the mountains of Abarim, near Nebo.
48 They left the mountains of Abarim and camped on the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho. 49 There on the plains of Moab they camped along the Jordan from Beth Jeshimoth to Abel Shittim.
50 On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the LORD said to Moses, 51 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, 52 drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places. 53 Take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess. 54 Distribute the land by lot, according to your clans. To a larger group give a larger inheritance, and to a smaller group a smaller one. Whatever falls to them by lot will be theirs. Distribute it according to your ancestral tribes.
55 “‘But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live.[/quote]
Clearly, this is regarding the inhabitants of Canon who were idolaters – not the Jews.
Your original premise is flawed in that you believe because we don’t know what Jesus looked like, to create a picture of Him is to misrepresent him and thus is idolatry.
Sooo...
Facts #1 and #3 Out of context
Fact #2 True
Sure it is – it’s just not their only authority. The Word was delivered by writing and by oral tradition and Paul states as much. The issue you have is that you believe that everything was written in scripture; yet, even scripture states that not to be the case.
WM!
Again… context!
New International Version (NIV)
Numbers 33:45-55
45 They left Iye Abarim and camped at Dibon Gad.
46 They left Dibon Gad and camped at Almon Diblathaim.
47 They left Almon Diblathaim and camped in the mountains of Abarim, near Nebo.
48 They left the mountains of Abarim and camped on the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho. 49 There on the plains of Moab they camped along the Jordan from Beth Jeshimoth to Abel Shittim.
50 On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the LORD said to Moses, 51 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, 52 drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places. 53 Take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess. 54 Distribute the land by lot, according to your clans. To a larger group give a larger inheritance, and to a smaller group a smaller one. Whatever falls to them by lot will be theirs. Distribute it according to your ancestral tribes.
55 “‘But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live.[/quote]
Clearly, this is regarding the inhabitants of Canon who were idolaters – not the Jews.
Your original premise is flawed in that you believe because we don’t know what Jesus looked like, to create a picture of Him is to misrepresent him and thus is idolatry.
Sooo...
Facts #1 and #3 Out of context
Fact #2 True
Sure it is – it’s just not their only authority. The Word was delivered by writing and by oral tradition and Paul states as much. The issue you have is that you believe that everything was written in scripture; yet, even scripture states that not to be the case.
WM!
Dr. Walter
New Member
First, I do not believe we are in the final days of the age. There are clear Bibical signs when those days begin and we have not seen them.
Second, the present does not erase the past and does not deny what could lay ahead in the future.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
All this was dealt with back in 787 at Nicea. It seems people like re-inventing the wheel.
Indeed.
In other words, pure speculation and just your opinion. Nuff said.
Dr. Walter
New Member
It does not matter WHO is the idolater but WHAT is the nature of idolatry. Second, you think by simply picking and choosing what translation you like can change the nature of idolatry? An idol is an IMAGE and it does not have to be in wood or in stone but it can be in canvas or on skins as well.
You can't be serious? You have got to be joking? The scriptures clearly tell us what he does not look like and every picture violates that negative description. God says he is not handsome or pleasant to look upon and yet every single picture hung in churches have a good looking handsome long haired image of Christ. He was not a Nazerite like John the Baptist but was from Nazereth. He did not have long hair. Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and John in Matthew that characterizes the difference between one who is a nazerite versus one who is not a nazerite.
Sooo these pictures make God's Word a lie about his appearance. God's Word denies he is good to look upon and the images present him as very good to look upon.
All that Paul states is that it was first delivered by oral traditon but then it is finalized in writing as Peter states the written is a "more sure word" than any personal oral revelation given them by apostles (2 Pet. 1:17-21).
Jesus NEVER quoted the traditions of the Father's to establish doctrine or practice but ALWAYS quote God's Word directly and so do his true followers. Paul NEVER quoted the traditions of the Fathers but ALWAYS established his doctrine directly from the Word of God. No apostle EVER quoted the traditions of the elders to establish doctrine or practice but quoted directly from the Word of God. Rome has more in common with the Pharisees than with Christ and the apostles.
Rome is precisely like the Scribes and Pharisees who looked to the TRADITIONS OF THE FATHERS to be final and authortative interpretations of God's Word. Rome polutes and perverts God's word far worse than the Pharisees did.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Absolutely not! The scriptures are cyrstal clear that MURDERING believers is the mark of Satan and Satanic religions. Revelation 17:6 applies this directly to the Old Whore at Rome. History verifies that Roman Catholicism was characterized by this trait for CENTURIES.
Like I said, in your weird universe...
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
It applies to Jerusalem.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Do you need glasses or something? Perhaps you simply missed these words? Perhaps you simply chose to miss them???
How does that apply to carving, painting, smelting an image of God???? You have agreed that Jesus is God did you not? It does not take too much common sense to realize that ANY IMAGE designed to portray God is a MISREPRESENTATION of God as it LIMITS Him, it presents a FINITE image of an INFINITE image!
Second, the context of "anything" is in regard to objects of adoration or worship:
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
The explicit command is in verse 3. The "gods" he refers to in verse 3 are described in verses 4-5. There are no real "gods" as he repeatedly states over and over again in Isaiah. No god formed before him or after him. He is talking about those things that are set up before men and given the same PRACTICAL VENERATION as one would give God.
You are confused about context. The context of the first three commandments is to forbid the making of images for objects of PRACTICAL ACTS OF WORSHIP that belong to God alone.
The context of the ark, tabernacle, furniture, etc. is to TYPIFY spiritual truths not to provide images for PRACTICAL ACTS OF WORSHIP toward.
That image is no differen than the image of Buhda if you placed it on your desk. It is a FALSE IMAGE of a god.
That is the very explanation Rome gives for images. It is for their parishners to better grasp or represent unseen things.
If Jesus is God, and if you carve an IMAGE of God, smelt an IMAGE of God, or PAINT an IMAGE of God they are all equally IMAGES of God and God forbids making ANY IMAGES of what man may perceive to be god - that is idoltry. Roman Catholicism is an idoltrous religion as much as primitive African religions or ancient Babylonian religions.
So, um, what is Jesus then? (Hint: try Philippians 2:7 in the Greek...)
Dr. Walter
New Member
You think Jerusalem or Judaism are the only ones that MURDERING God's people "in the name of God" applies to??? There is a general principle underlying that text that the Bible applies equally to Cain, to the Great Whore of Rome, to all who persecute and kill the people of God. Simply because there is a specific application to Cain, does not mean it does not apply to Judaism or to the Great Whore or to any religion that persecutes and murders the people of God (Rev. 17:6).
There are IMO some children of God in the apostate popish churches as well as the dead protestant churches.
A building does not a church make. We do.
Although the kind of church you attend provides the world with an identity of your flavor of Christendom.
Often the reality and the identity don't match, clash.
Take my own case: I was saved while reading the Book of John.
However I was a cradle Catholic and went back to the Catholic Church.
As I remained in the word I realized that the Church of Rome made me very uncomfortable because of the clash between its history and practice and the scripture.
After two years of counsels with priests I left the RCC.
For a while I looked for a local church among the denominational churches.
Eventually I settled into Baptist local churches and the baptist distinctives.
My wife (a former Mormon) and I were baptised together at Tremont Temple Baptist Church in Boston, MA in 1966.
HankD
A building does not a church make. We do.
Although the kind of church you attend provides the world with an identity of your flavor of Christendom.
Often the reality and the identity don't match, clash.
Take my own case: I was saved while reading the Book of John.
However I was a cradle Catholic and went back to the Catholic Church.
As I remained in the word I realized that the Church of Rome made me very uncomfortable because of the clash between its history and practice and the scripture.
After two years of counsels with priests I left the RCC.
For a while I looked for a local church among the denominational churches.
Eventually I settled into Baptist local churches and the baptist distinctives.
My wife (a former Mormon) and I were baptised together at Tremont Temple Baptist Church in Boston, MA in 1966.
HankD
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Tell me Dr. Walter to whom is Jesus referring in Matthew 22:1-14? Who were the first invited group?
Dr. Walter
New Member
I have no clue concerning what this post is about? Please inform me how this post relates to anything I have said?
Dr. Walter
New Member
I don't build doctrines on parables. John 16:1-4 is not parabolic. Revelation 17:6 is not parabolic. John 8:44-45 is not parabolic.
The principle of murding God's people for their faith is not restricted in the Bible to just Judaism. Cain and the Great Whore are equally implicated. The Biblical principle applies to any and all religions that make this their practice. This was the practice of Roman Catholocism for centuries and it defines her as the enemy of God not His church. She is the Great Whore of Revelation.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Glad to hear of your spiritual progress. I don't deny that God has children in the darkest of places. However, just as there are Biblical essentials TO BE a Christian and to be recognized as such, there are Biblical essentials TO BE a true congregation of Christ and be recognized as such.
If a denomination/church preaches "another gospel" they cannot possibly be recognized as any church of Christ even though in spite of what they preach and teach there may be some real true Christians among them.
The last paragraph of your post previous to mine.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Parables are to exhibit truth in an understandable way. BTW Revelation is symbolic and both Matthew and Revelation along with Hosea are built upon the same foundational idea or principle. Think of it this way. You cannot prostitute yourself out from God if you were never with God to begin with. So verses like: 2 Kings 17:14-16 and Hosea 2:5 spell out the real association with Revelation 17. Not some concocted Idea totally seperate from the rest of scripture.
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