Are The Heathen Lost Without The Gospel?

[Martin Marprelate]

The residents of Ephesus were designated by the apostle Paul in the same manner as that area was addressed by Peter in his two letters. Peter addressed those in Asia minor in the following way.

1Pe 1:1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2Pe 3:1 ¶ This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

These letters were both written to the same people by two different apostles. One of the apostles, Paul, addressed them as gentiles and the other addressed them as those who had covenants with God, Peter. In both cases they were strangers and pilgrims in a strange land, because that is what a foreigner is. Paul gives them the benefits of being "in Christ" a Christian, and Peter points them to the inheritance of peace in their kingdom with Christ when they will be restored. This is just a fact.

Eph211 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past (before Christ came) Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands (the Jews);
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ (in his body) Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

In the economy of God, a member of his people Israel who was in another land and cut off from their covenants and ability to experience the temple worship of Jehovah was considered a gentile. These first Christians were of the extract of Jacob but they were strangers and here we are seeing prophecy being fulfilled that God was going to make them, the north and the south, one again spiritually and later, physically as well. Note this prophecy to the north.

Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 ¶ Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.


The gentiles in Romans nine (9) are these people and God through Christ is having mercy on them. Hosea 1 is actually quoted by Paul in that chapter.

The first people in the kingdom of heaven are the Jews and then Israel and then the gentiles. Paul would preach in that region nearly 14 years on his first missionary journey before he headed West to Europe where the gentiles live on his second campaign, directed by God.

God never does anything without a purpose and the separation of Israel into two kingdoms was his way of clearing a path for you and me to be saved today through the open door of faith to the whole world.

Mic 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

These people are the other flock of John 10. Jesus there is not speaking of the church when he puts Judah and Israel together after gathering them from the four 4) corners of the earth after he purges them.

I know you will probably not put these things together and understand them because your teachers have not taught you about the love of God the Father for Israel.

Unbelievable, in every sense of the word. Firstly, that you would foist such an obviously contrived and nonsensical construct on us all to get yourself out of the promise you made to @David Lamb; secondly that you would expect anyone to swallow it, and thirdly that you really appear to have swallowed it yourself.
But I am aware of such stuff on the internet. We had a couple in our church briefly who were under the spell of some false teacher or other, and they were eventually persuaded by him that only a Jew could be a real Bible teacher. So now they sit alone at home every Lord's Day, putting money in that guy's pocket to watch his twaddle on line. There is no teaching so glaringly at odds with the Bible that someone will not fall for it.

 

[JD731]

Unbelievable, in every sense of the word. Firstly, that you would foist such an obviously contrived and nonsensical construct on us all to get yourself out of the promise you made to @David Lamb; secondly that you would expect anyone to swallow it, and thirdly that you really appear to have swallowed it yourself.
But I am aware of such stuff on the internet. We had a couple in our church briefly who were under the spell of some false teacher or other, and they were eventually persuaded by him that only a Jew could be a real Bible teacher. So now they sit alone at home every Lord's Day, putting money in that guy's pocket to watch his twaddle on line. There is no teaching so glaringly at odds with the Bible that someone will not fall for it.

I recogniize this tactic that you have chosen and I am okay with it. Obfuscation and misdirection and attack. It is much easier than reason.

The difference in you and me in our approach to the scriptures is that I recognize and believe the words of the OT and I do not define NT terms differently, as you do. You have a new Israel after the coming of Jesus Christ that is populated with previously selected elected ones before the foundation of the world without regard to their geneology or ethnicity and it does not resemble the Israel we read about in the OT.

The creator of this thread recognized that a difference exists between the heathen and someone else because of his use of the term. The fact there is a "heathen" demands there be someone else. Israel is never called "heathen." I am not mad at you for teaching and believing that Israel is defined over their OT history as "sheep" but suddenly, after the appearance of their Messiah in the flesh and of their geneology, a selected bunch of gentiles becomes sheep. Not all gentiles, but only those who are chosen to be sheep and Israelites before the foundation of the world. I am calling you out as being confused and teaching false doctrine. I am trying to do it with as much grace that I can muster and hope to help you with the truth.

There are foundational truths at stake here, IMO.

 

[ParticularWife]

But I am aware of such stuff on the internet. We had a couple in our church briefly who were under the spell of some false teacher or other, and they were eventually persuaded by him that only a Jew could be a real Bible teacher.

Ironically, the OT isn't very important to modern Judaism. We're not talking about Josiah or the Makkabean kings here.

 

[percho]

IMHO

Jesus in the following

“And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16 NKJV


Is speaking of the following

Eze 37:18-24 NKJV “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— “say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ “And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; “and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. “They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.

The fold of John is the house of Judah to be joined with lost sheep of the house of Israel to become one flock with one shepherd.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@percho,
IMO, John 10:16 has to be taken with John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." That is what has actually been happening over the past 2,000 years. In 720 or so BC, the Northern kingdom of Israel were taken into captivity, and they have long since merged into the nations; they are gone. If they are anywhere, they are probably Palestinians! But every time an unbeliever trusts in Christ for salvation, he or she becomes a true Israelite (cf. Matthew 3:9).
Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled in the Gospel. 'That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed" (Romans 9:8). The Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree that is the Jews (Romans 11:11ff). There is now one people of God, believing Jew and believing Gentile together (Ephesians 2:11-16).
'In that day, Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria - a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance"' (Isaiah 19:24-25).

 

[percho]

@percho,
IMO, John 10:16 has to be taken with John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." That is what has actually been happening over the past 2,000 years. In 720 or so BC, the Northern kingdom of Israel were taken into captivity, and they have long since merged into the nations; they are gone. If they are anywhere, they are probably Palestinians! But every time an unbeliever trusts in Christ for salvation, he or she becomes a true Israelite (cf. Matthew 3:9).
Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled in the Gospel. 'That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed" (Romans 9:8). The Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree that is the Jews (Romans 11:11ff). There is now one people of God, believing Jew and believing Gentile together (Ephesians 2:11-16).
'In that day, Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria - a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance"' (Isaiah 19:24-25).

IMHO for the last 2000 years God has been taking out of, the Judeans and the Gentiles [Nations} a people for his name [the first-fruit of the Spirit]. After God is through taking a people for his name, to rule with Christ when he sits on the throne of his glory, then the tabernacle of David will be rebuilt. Acts 15:8,14,16 the regeneration. That is when it will be one flock and one shepherd.
V 8 YLT and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them [Gentiles, Nations v7] the Holy Spirit, even as also to us [Jews Judeans, house of Judah [Judah, Benjamin, Levi].

Then the residue of men can seek after the Lord and those chosen for his name to rule with him. Acts 17:17

I could be wrong but that is what I understand to be, truth.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Actually, no one on the earth is lost in the context of ownership of God except those who were owned by God. Those were lost, but God, the owner did not lose them, the stewards whom he appoint to care for and feed them lost them.

The sheep, Israel, is lost because they are God's. No one else can be lost because they are not nor have ever been God's.

Paul, writing 13 letters never says that non Israelites are lost.

He uses the word Sheep one time, clearly in the context of the saved remnant of Jews in Ro 8:36.

The heathen are separated from God by their sin, but they are not said to be lost.

And then, you quote Jesus saying,

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I know you will probably not put these things together and understand them because your teachers have not taught you about the love of God the Father for Israel.

If they did, they wouldn't be getting it from the Word of God.

Yours taught you to exualt Israel.

Get over that.

Worship God instead.

 

[JD731]

And then, you quote Jesus saying,

I have noted that Paul the apostle to the gentiles wrote 13 letters to us and never one time said we are lost. Jesus said he was not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. You do know what a house is, don't you? It is a family. So, Jesus was not sent but to the lost sheep of the family of Jacob, whose name God changed to Israel, a family of 12 tribes.

What is the geographical area where Jesus ministered when he came? Finding that out would be instructive. If he ministered only in the confines area of the family's land, it would surely confirm the truth he was telling, wouldn't it?

Have you ever read with discernment the gospel account of how the national leaders of Israel rejected his stated ministry to them, that he came to fulfill the OT prohecies to be their King and that he is the son of God, and through Mary the son of David? If he did not come to be King of Israel, what difference would it have made about his connection to David?

Did it ever occur to you that Jesus did not even preach to Israel when he came that he was coming to die on the cross and be buried and rise from the dead on the third day? Have you not read the account of how none of his closest disciples and apostles had a single clue that the person they had traveled with and preached with for the entirety of his misnistry was going to die in Jerusalem and rise from the dead? Do you not understand that Jesus Christ was preaching the gospel, the good news, the glad tidings of the kingdom of God on the earth and that he came to be their King?

I have read some of your stuff on this internet and have understood that your religion has led you away from the truth and what you preach on here comes from your teachers and not from the scriptures of truth.

Have you ever read the parables of Jesus during the last few weeks of his ministry and especially during the last week of his ministry what his reaction to his family rejecting his rule over them will be in the series of prophetical parables he gave?

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The church of Jesus Christ, with gentiles grafted in where the unbelieving Israelites were broken off from the root, is what God is doing in this age to form his bride who will be married to Jesus Christ and rule with him. What a great blessing to us gentiles! This is the mystery of Ephesians.

You have missed the whole message of the Bible and I am sorry about that.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles,

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[JD731]

If they did, they wouldn't be getting it from the Word of God.

Yours taught you to exualt Israel.

Get over that.

Worship God instead.

All we know about God is through this people Israel. One of the four stated purposes of raising this people and nation up as his own people is to get fame for himself through them among the other nations and that the nations by his actions may learn that he is the one true God over all the earth..

 

[JD731]

Be it known concerning the heathen of the present age;

God is not forming a new Israel like is preached by many of the reformed believers. Everything connected to the church of Jesus Christ is "NEW." It is a new creation, a new man, entered into by a new birth and having the promise of a new glorified body and having hope of an eternal reign with Christ our head in the new Jerusalem in the new heaven and new earth that is coming. It is not the old man refurbished. When we are resurrected and translated with this glorified body like unto the glorified body of Jesus it will mean that every connection we had with Adam is taken away. The physical body of Christ and the spiritual body of Christ has no connection to Adam.

This does not mean that there are not other nations and a nation and people of Israel on the earth who are redeemed. Ones who believe such should read the two chapters in scriptures that describes the eternal state and believe it. Re 21-22.

There are Jews and gentiles in the church of Jesus Christ and their identity is not lost, but their standing is the same, sons of God.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I have read some of your stuff on this internet and have understood that your religion has led you away from the truth and what you preach on here comes from your teachers and not from the scriptures of truth.

Remember that every aspect of everything you believe is based on Jesus' reign of a thousand years on Earth and the God of The Bible has utterly eliminated that kind of imaginary thinking entirely by revealing the truth about Jesus" thousand year reign, in Revelation 20:4.

 

[JD731]

Remember that every aspect of everything you believe is based on Jesus' reign of a thousand years on Earth and the God of The Bible has utterly eliminated that kind of imaginary thinking entirely by revealing the truth about Jesus" thousand year reign, in Revelation 20:4.

How did you miss it, Alan? The Bible is a political book. Nations were the idea of God and he created them with languages. One of the four great themes of prophetic history is the kingdom of God. It is what the Bible is about. During the four gospel accounts of the earthly ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ he preached no other gospel than the kingdom of heaven was at hand. It can be undoubtably proven to the hardest close minded skeptic with no more than fourteen verses.

Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Here are some words for you to look up in your dictionary before you move on. About any dictionary will do. Knowing the meanings of these words is crucial.

1) the
2) kingdom
3) of
4) heaven
5) is
6) at hand

here are some more.

7) From that time
8) Jesus began to preach
9) and to say

If you do not understand the meaning of these words there will be no need to move on because you will not understand anything else.

Okay, here are my 14 verses.

1) Mt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
2) 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

3) 22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
4) 23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

5) Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
6) 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

7) 31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
8) 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

9) LK 9:21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
10) 22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

11) 44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
12) 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

13) John 20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
14) 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Conclusion;
The words of the Bible, not to mention logic, reason, and common sense, teaches us that the gospel of the kingdom these men preached with Jesus was not the same thing as the gospel of salvation these same men preached post resurrection. The gospel of the kingdom was suspended just before the mount of transfiguration and it still is.

There is still time to believe God, but you must hurry!

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Remember that every aspect of everything you believe is based on Jesus' reign of a thousand years on Earth and the God of The Bible has utterly eliminated that kind of imaginary thinking entirely by revealing the truth about Jesus" thousand year reign, in Revelation 20:4.

The imaginary garbage you come up with is worse than making up a thousand year Reign of Jesus on Earth, to start with.

Why not just stop and give up while you're behind and see that you have zero support for your exclusively extra Biblical position?

Here are some words for you to look up in your dictionary before you move on. About any dictionary will do. Knowing the meanings of these words is crucial.

1) the
2) kingdom
3) of
4) heaven
5) is
6) at hand

here are some more.

7) From that time
8) Jesus began to preach
9) and to say

Okay, here are my 14 verses

If you do not understand the meaning of these words there will be no need to move on because you will not understand anything else

None of these words are in any of the 24 verses you quoted.

What is wrong with you, anyway?

The words of the Bible, not to mention logic, reason, and common sense, teaches us that the gospel of the kingdom these men preached with Jesus was not the same thing as the gospel of salvation these same men preached post resurrection

Souls enter the present Kingdom when they are saved through the gospel.

So, there is nothing that teaches that there is any difference.

You've making things up out of thin air, for no reason other than some invention that has no Bible support, beginning with there being no Earthly Reign of a thousand years taught anywhere in the Bible.

You should know enough to give up on all that silliness right there.

It's over.

The gospel of the kingdom was suspended just before the mount of transfiguration and it still is.

And, I suppose that there just happens to be nothing about the Kingdom being suspended taught anywhere in the Bible, so you could come along and make that up, too.

Give it all up and start over.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

"I find it amazing how Jesus spoke over and over again about His Kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God, and the nature of this kingdom, and yet said not one solitary word about His (alleged) future Kingdom or reign on earth at His second coming? If that doesn't tell us something, then what will?

"Something as significant as Christ physically descending to earth again to rule from Jerusalem, we would expect to read it somewhere in the Bible.

"Not only don't we read it, all we have is man's personal interpretation that this will happen. This is quite different from God actually saying these things.

"What He actually said was that the Kingdom and the children thereof are now, and that His reign in this Kingdom is now, and that the future Kingdom is one which flesh and blood cannot inherit. To find any writing of an earthly reign in between, we would have to add that to the scriptures. And indeed many have "read into" the scriptures their own political views and private opinions concerning a coming earthly reign.

"Why would anyone decry the fact that Amillennialism teaches that Christ is now reigning from His throne in heaven, and that we are reigning with Him? Yet many theologians loudly protest this, and claim that it is a product of faulty exegesis.

"But the scriptures declaring this are unambiguous. i.e., they don't say this implicitly, they say it quite "explicitly." If we accept the authority of scripture, this point shouldn't even be a source for debate. Yet, because of the modern Church traditions that seem to override scripture, it has become debatable.

Colossians 1:13

• "Who hath delivered us from the Power of darkness, and hath translated us into The Kingdom of His dear Son."

"If we accept that the Word of God alone is the "ultimate" authority, then why is this doctrine that is taught so clearly in the scriptures, so hard for some people to receive?

"Why is it so reviled, so spoken evil of, and so vilified as error when it is obviously unadulterated Holy writ? That is the question of the hour. This is God's Word of truth and yet (incredibly) modern theologians try and use it as some sort of proof text which they claim shows Amillennialists are not following scripture literally.

"But truly, doesn't it show just the opposite? What it shows is that we understand the Kingdom literally the way God inspired it to be written, and intended it to be understood. We understand it as a spiritual Kingdom, not as a pile of bricks in a plot of dirt located in the middle east. God's kingdom is not meat and drink, and God's word precludes a worldly (physical or earthly) Kingdom to come. The truth is, we could not have been translated into the Kingdom of Christ (Colossians 1:13) if Christ had not yet established His kingdom yet, could we? That would be the height of foolishness and confusion. Either what God inspired written of our having been translated into Christ's kingdom is the truth of God's word, or it is a lie. It can be one or the other, but not both. So again, the Amillennialist doctrine triumphs Biblically. It's not something "read into" scripture, it is something that is scripture.

"The Kingdom of God has been present with us all throughout Church history, and it is being extended to the entire world, the fulfillment of God's great commission. Are we preaching the good news to the world of a King which has no Kingdom, or are we preaching the gospel of being regenerated and translated into His Kingdom? The Kingdom of Christ has extended from the past, into the present, and also into the future.

Matthew 24:14

• "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

"The gospel of this Kingdom was to be preached as a witness from that time Christ instituted it, until the end came. And there was no other kingdom of Christ mentioned that should come in between. There's a good reason for that. There is no other earthly Kingdom. Christ never spoke of it at all. When the end comes, this Kingdom shall be delivered up unto the Father (1st Corinthians 15:24). By Grace of God in dealing honestly with these scriptures, we understand that what is called Amillennialism is nothing more than the Bible truth of this present Kingdom being extended to the nations. And who will condemn Christians for believing what the Bible plainly and unambiguously says about Christ's present reign in this Kingdom?"

From: Amillennialism: A Word Direct From The Scriptures by Tony Warren.

Reformed Eschatology - Center For Biblical Theology and Eschatology

Reformed Eschatology from a Biblical Christian exegesis perspective. by Tony Warren

www.mountainretreatorg.net

I'm not a Reformed anything, but if someone has some truth to teach
I don't care if they are a flying monkey.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

The Bible is a political book. Nations were the idea of God and he created them with languages. One of the four great themes of prophetic history is the kingdom of God. It is what the Bible is about. During the four gospel accounts of the earthly ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ he preached no other gospel than the kingdom of heaven was at hand.

"While the Postmillennial view appeals to the humanity of man, the Premillennial view appeals to the traditions of man. It is basically an offshoot of the old Judaic tradition in the law-bound beliefs in nationalism, earthly governments, and genealogical glory. When studied carefully, it is both inconsistent and contradictory.

"Unfortunately, like its namesake Judaism, Premillennialism continually denies God's fulfillment of Old Testament prophesies (which scripture clearly declare have already been fulfilled).

"Amillennialism gives us an authoritatively consistent and biblically tenable doctrine that doesn't undermine God's Word of fulfillment. We need a recognition in the Church that when God's Word says something is fulfilled (completed), then it's fulfilled. And this makes perfect sense, because it testifies to the emphasis of God's Word on the inward man, the spiritual nature of Messiah's Kingdom, and of those who reign in it.

"It confirms that we are citizens of that kingdom (now), as prophesied,
and presently reign in true peace as kings and priests unto our God.

"Not in a carnal or political government in the middle eastern city of Jerusalem, but in a spiritual government that is upon Christ's shoulders. We are part of the rule of a spiritual city from above. Earthly Jerusalem remains in bondage, rejecting this rule of Christ.

Galatians 4:25-26

• "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia,
and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

• But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

"We are ruled in a government wherein we are subjects
who obey the laws thereof "in Christ," who rules over us."

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

The gospel of the kingdom was suspended just before the mount of transfiguration and it still is.

"Christ 'Has' established a Kingdom, not will..

Colossians 1:13

• "Who hath delivered us from the Power of darkness,
and hath translated us into The Kingdom of His dear Son."

Luke 1:33

• "and He shall reign over the House of Judah for ever,
and of His Kingdom there shall be no end."

"It's not a Kingdom that lasts 'literally' a thousand years as some believe,
for it's not an earthly kingdom.

"His kingdom is not of this world, and we reign on earth until Christ returns,
and in the New Heaven and New Earth forever.

"A literal thousand-year kingdom on earth just doesn't qualify considering what God has said about it. We were translated from the Kingdom of darkness, and into the Kingdom of Christ, are become part of the Kingdom of Light.

"We are now as strangers and pilgrims here on earth because our real home/kingdom is in Heaven...We are waiting the time when we'll possess the Kingdom, which we have already received in Christ Jesus. A Kingdom which is reserved for us.

"Christ 'Is' a king right Now, not will be..

Matthew 28:18

• "And Jesus came and spake unto them saying,
All Power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.

• go ye therefore and teach all nations
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

"He is not going to be a King someday, and we will be servants of that King someday; He is King now, in both heaven and earth, and does reign until He hath put all things under His feet. We are now the servants of that King, and he has all rule and authority.

"Note carefully that it says in both heaven, and earth.

"David's Son will forever be, "King of kings and Lord of lords."

"An earthly kingdom (which Christ rejected) has absolutely nothing to do with that fact (see acts 2:30-31). Christ "now" reigns on the throne of David. Again, that's not Amillennialist rhetoric, that's the Biblical facts that any Christian can plainly read for themselves.

"Christ 'Does' Reign in His Kingdom, not will..

1st Corinthians 15:25

• "For He must reign, until He hath put all enemies under His foot."

Romans 15:12

• "and again Isaiah saith, There shall be a root of Jesse,
and He that shall rise to reign over the gentiles, in him shall the gentiles trust."

"Though many arrogantly deny this, what does the scriptures say?

"Christ is already reigning over His kingdom. He is our now our king, and we are now His servants worshipping and serving him in this kingdom.

"He will reign in this established Kingdom until He hath put all enemies under His foot, and then will be the consummation of the Kingdom.

"NOTE: the last enemy will be death. Which of course means, He must reign from now, until the white throne judgment. Once again, condemnation of Postmillennialism and Premillennialism. This reign 'obviously' must be now, and 'must' last to the judgment when the last enemy death, is put under His feet.

"CLEARLY, to deny this is to deny what is written here.

"We 'Do' Reign with Christ in His Kingdom, Not will..

Ephesians 2:6

• "and hath raised us up together,
and made us to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

"In our soul we have been raised up with Christ,
in our bodies we reign on the earth as Kings and Priests unto God
(As prophesied and fulfilled; Ex. 19:16; 1st peter 2:9; Rev. 1:5-6; 5:9-10)
because He redeemed us to God by His blood,
and raised us to sit in His Kingdom with Him.

"Therefore are we kings and priests unto God and reign on earth.
These aren't theories based on assumptions, these are not Augustine's words,
this is the witness of scripture.

"We reign with Him in His Kingdom right now according to God's Word.

"Else, He hasn't redeemed us
and made us a Royal (king is the same Greek word) Priesthood, as 1st Peter says."

 

[JD731]

@Alan Gross, I see you did not consult the dictionary as I advised and you are tripping over simple words and contexts. For this reason I am suspending my interaction with you on this subject because it is not biblical doctrines on which we disagree but meanings of simple words and two thousand years of prophecy during the OT times that was spoken and written by men whom the LORD inspired and which our Lord Jesus came to fulfill and which you redefine. What you are trying to prove is that God cannot be trusted but this guy named Warren, from whom you are getting your authority to speak, is your god that you choose to follow. His doctrines are an uninformed scheme.

Here are some literal words with common meanings for you.

LK 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

If one cannot believe the prophecy of his first coming then he cannot believe that of his second coming.

God will give you additional light up to the time you reject his light. Here a little and there a little.

I hope God will open your understanding but you will have to believe the words that he gave.

 

[JesusFan]

"Christ 'Has' established a Kingdom, not will..

Colossians 1:13

• "Who hath delivered us from the Power of darkness,
and hath translated us into The Kingdom of His dear Son."

Luke 1:33

• "and He shall reign over the House of Judah for ever,
and of His Kingdom there shall be no end."

"It's not a Kingdom that lasts 'literally' a thousand years as some believe,
for it's not an earthly kingdom.

"His kingdom is not of this world, and we reign on earth until Christ returns,
and in the New Heaven and New Earth forever.

"A literal thousand-year kingdom on earth just doesn't qualify considering what God has said about it. We were translated from the Kingdom of darkness, and into the Kingdom of Christ, are become part of the Kingdom of Light.

"We are now as strangers and pilgrims here on earth because our real home/kingdom is in Heaven...We are waiting the time when we'll possess the Kingdom, which we have already received in Christ Jesus. A Kingdom which is reserved for us.

"Christ 'Is' a king right Now, not will be..

Matthew 28:18

• "And Jesus came and spake unto them saying,
All Power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.

• go ye therefore and teach all nations
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

"He is not going to be a King someday, and we will be servants of that King someday; He is King now, in both heaven and earth, and does reign until He hath put all things under His feet. We are now the servants of that King, and he has all rule and authority.

"Note carefully that it says in both heaven, and earth.

"David's Son will forever be, "King of kings and Lord of lords."

"An earthly kingdom (which Christ rejected) has absolutely nothing to do with that fact (see acts 2:30-31). Christ "now" reigns on the throne of David. Again, that's not Amillennialist rhetoric, that's the Biblical facts that any Christian can plainly read for themselves.

"Christ 'Does' Reign in His Kingdom, not will..

1st Corinthians 15:25

• "For He must reign, until He hath put all enemies under His foot."

Romans 15:12

• "and again Isaiah saith, There shall be a root of Jesse,
and He that shall rise to reign over the gentiles, in him shall the gentiles trust."

"Though many arrogantly deny this, what does the scriptures say?

"Christ is already reigning over His kingdom. He is our now our king, and we are now His servants worshipping and serving him in this kingdom.

"He will reign in this established Kingdom until He hath put all enemies under His foot, and then will be the consummation of the Kingdom.

"NOTE: the last enemy will be death. Which of course means, He must reign from now, until the white throne judgment. Once again, condemnation of Postmillennialism and Premillennialism. This reign 'obviously' must be now, and 'must' last to the judgment when the last enemy death, is put under His feet.

"CLEARLY, to deny this is to deny what is written here.

"We 'Do' Reign with Christ in His Kingdom, Not will..

Ephesians 2:6

• "and hath raised us up together,
and made us to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

"In our soul we have been raised up with Christ,
in our bodies we reign on the earth as Kings and Priests unto God
(As prophesied and fulfilled; Ex. 19:16; 1st peter 2:9; Rev. 1:5-6; 5:9-10)
because He redeemed us to God by His blood,
and raised us to sit in His Kingdom with Him.

"Therefore are we kings and priests unto God and reign on earth.
These aren't theories based on assumptions, these are not Augustine's words,
this is the witness of scripture.

"We reign with Him in His Kingdom right now according to God's Word.

"Else, He hasn't redeemed us
and made us a Royal (king is the same Greek word) Priesthood, as 1st Peter says."

Jesus since His ascension been in role of High Priest, and will assume direct Kingly rule and reign at Second Coming event as at that time the fullness of His kingdom established on earth, as His will them is done as now in Heaven

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

For this reason I am suspending my interaction with you on this subject

Did you pick some subject you are on?

About any dictionary will do.

this guy named Warren, from whom you are getting your authority to speak, is your god that you choose to follow. His doctrines are an uninformed scheme.

So, you follow the dictionary?

Any dictionary will do to be your god?

You don't even know that lost souls are lost. That's something.

Actually, no one on the earth is lost in the context of ownership of God except those who were owned by God.

Is there anywhere in the history of Christianity where you can quote anyone teaching this?

Those were lost, but God, the owner did not lose them, the stewards whom he appoint to care for and feed them lost them.

Is there anywhere in the history of Christianity where you can quote anyone teaching this?

The sheep, Israel, is lost because they are God's.

Is there anywhere in the history of Christianity where you can quote anyone teaching this?

No one else can be lost because they are not nor have ever been God's.

Is there anywhere in the history of Christianity where you can quote anyone teaching this?

The heathen are separated from God by their sin, but they are not said to be lost.

Is there anywhere in the history of Christianity where you can quote anyone teaching this?

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

A SOUL HAS TO COME TO A REALIZATION THROUGH THE TEACHING OF THE WORD AND THE LAW THAT THEY ARE LOST
AND THAT THEY THEN HAVE A NEED FOR A SAVIOR BEFORE THEY CAN BE SAVED.

Are The Heathen Lost Without The Gospel?​

"For as many as have sinned without (a written) law shall also perish without law." Romans 2:12.
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20.
"Having no hope, and without God in the world." Ephesians 2:12.

"The question before us, then, is: Can accountable Heathen be saved without the Gospel? In answering this momentous question, the Bible must be our sole authority. What saith the Scriptures on this important subject - The Bible clearly teaches,

I. - THAT THE HEATHEN ARE ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD.

1. They enjoy the light of nature and of tradition.

"In Psalm 19:1-3, David says: "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth his handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard." And in Psalm 97:6, the Psalmist adds: - "The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory."

"Paul, in speaking of the accountability of the Heathen, says: - "That which may be known of God is manifest in them (Marg. to them); for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Romans 1:19-21."

logic, reason, and common sense

2. The Heathen are endowed with conscience and reason.

" They possess a moral sense by which they can discern right and wrong in their conduct, and therefore "are a law unto themselves." As it is written: "For when the Gentiles (or Heathen) do by nature the things contained in the (moral) law, these, having no (written) law, are a law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them." Romans 2:14, 15. (Revised V.)"

"Now conscience is that faculty of the mind by which we discern right and wrong in actions, and approve the one and condemn the other, according to the decisions of the judgment. The Heathen possess conscience and reason; and when they violate the recognized standard of right, their conscience condemns them, and when they obey this standard it approves their conduct, according to the decisions of their judgment. That they all violate this recognized standard of right is not only attested by their conscience but expressly declared in God's word: - "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;" and "as many as have sinned without (a written) law shall. also perish without law:" - "For the wages of sin is death (eternal); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 2:12; 3:23; 6:23."

3. The Heathen are moral and religious beings.

"Like the Athenians of old (Acts 17:22), modern Heathen are exceedingly religious in their way. They have "gods many and lords many" (1 Corinthians 8:5); and their numberless deities and costly idol worship attest their devotion..."

"Paul tells us, "that the things which the Gentiles (or Heathen) sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God." (1 Corinthians 10:20.) "Professing themselves to be wise," says He, "they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourIooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God gave th'3m up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature ihstead of the Creator, who is blessed forever. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those" things which are not convenient." Romans 1:22-28."

4. The Heathen the the subjects of God's Providence.

"Divine Providence is universal and extends to all creatures and things. God directs and controls every creature and thing in accordance with the nature he has given them; he governs inorganic matter by force, brutes by instinct, and man by arguments and motives. The Heathen are conscious of God's presence; they see his foot-prints, hear his voice, and, like Belshazzar, often tremble in view of merited punishment, but they are ignorant of the way of reconciliation to God."

"Providence is both afflictive and joyous. God chastises the Heathen in various ways; by painful disease, sore bereavement, and impending death; by famine, pestilence, and war. He thus awakens their· fears, humbles their plide, and restrains their wickedness, as in the case of Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel 4::28-37. By the bounties of his Providence, he daily loads them with his benefits and crowns their lives with numberless blessings. Says David: "The Lord is good to all; and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 14:5:9. Though he suffers all nations to walk in their own ways, still he leaves not himself without witness, in that he does good, and gives them rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling their hearts with gladness. Acts 14::16, 17."

5. The Holy Spirit convinces the Heathen of sin.

"The official work of the Holy Spirit is co-extensive with the provisions of the atonement. He convicts all men everywhere according to the light they enjoy. As the Father so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son to redeem it, and as the Son offered himself a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16; 1 John 2:2): so the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father through the intercession of the Son, convinces the same world of sin. John 16:8. Thus He strove with the antedeluvians (Genesis 6:3), and with the Jews (Acts 7:51); and thus He strives with all men, according to the light they enjoy. It is the duty of the Heathen thus convinced of sin, to repent; for God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent; (Acts 17:30,31); but they cannot repent unto life without the Gospel, which is an indispensable means of repentance."

"Hence we see that the Heathen are accountable to God: they enjoy the light of nature and of tradition; they are endowed with conscience and reason; they are moral and religious beings; they are the subjects of God's Providence; and the Holy Spirit convinces them of sin, according to the light they enjoy."

from:
The Heathen Lost without the Gospel.
By W. W. Gardner, D.D., 1892