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Are The Heathen Lost Without The Gospel?

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The residents of Ephesus were designated by the apostle Paul in the same manner as that area was addressed by Peter in his two letters. Peter addressed those in Asia minor in the following way.

1Pe 1:1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2Pe 3:1 ¶ This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

These letters were both written to the same people by two different apostles. One of the apostles, Paul, addressed them as gentiles and the other addressed them as those who had covenants with God, Peter. In both cases they were strangers and pilgrims in a strange land, because that is what a foreigner is. Paul gives them the benefits of being "in Christ" a Christian, and Peter points them to the inheritance of peace in their kingdom with Christ when they will be restored. This is just a fact.

Eph211 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past (before Christ came) Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands (the Jews);
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ (in his body) Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

In the economy of God, a member of his people Israel who was in another land and cut off from their covenants and ability to experience the temple worship of Jehovah was considered a gentile. These first Christians were of the extract of Jacob but they were strangers and here we are seeing prophecy being fulfilled that God was going to make them, the north and the south, one again spiritually and later, physically as well. Note this prophecy to the north.

Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 ¶ Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.


The gentiles in Romans nine (9) are these people and God through Christ is having mercy on them. Hosea 1 is actually quoted by Paul in that chapter.

The first people in the kingdom of heaven are the Jews and then Israel and then the gentiles. Paul would preach in that region nearly 14 years on his first missionary journey before he headed West to Europe where the gentiles live on his second campaign, directed by God.

God never does anything without a purpose and the separation of Israel into two kingdoms was his way of clearing a path for you and me to be saved today through the open door of faith to the whole world.

Mic 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

These people are the other flock of John 10. Jesus there is not speaking of the church when he puts Judah and Israel together after gathering them from the four 4) corners of the earth after he purges them.

I know you will probably not put these things together and understand them because your teachers have not taught you about the love of God the Father for Israel.
Unbelievable, in every sense of the word. Firstly, that you would foist such an obviously contrived and nonsensical construct on us all to get yourself out of the promise you made to @David Lamb; secondly that you would expect anyone to swallow it, and thirdly that you really appear to have swallowed it yourself.
But I am aware of such stuff on the internet. We had a couple in our church briefly who were under the spell of some false teacher or other, and they were eventually persuaded by him that only a Jew could be a real Bible teacher. So now they sit alone at home every Lord's Day, putting money in that guy's pocket to watch his twaddle on line. There is no teaching so glaringly at odds with the Bible that someone will not fall for it.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Unbelievable, in every sense of the word. Firstly, that you would foist such an obviously contrived and nonsensical construct on us all to get yourself out of the promise you made to @David Lamb; secondly that you would expect anyone to swallow it, and thirdly that you really appear to have swallowed it yourself.
But I am aware of such stuff on the internet. We had a couple in our church briefly who were under the spell of some false teacher or other, and they were eventually persuaded by him that only a Jew could be a real Bible teacher. So now they sit alone at home every Lord's Day, putting money in that guy's pocket to watch his twaddle on line. There is no teaching so glaringly at odds with the Bible that someone will not fall for it.
I recogniize this tactic that you have chosen and I am okay with it. Obfuscation and misdirection and attack. It is much easier than reason.

The difference in you and me in our approach to the scriptures is that I recognize and believe the words of the OT and I do not define NT terms differently, as you do. You have a new Israel after the coming of Jesus Christ that is populated with previously selected elected ones before the foundation of the world without regard to their geneology or ethnicity and it does not resemble the Israel we read about in the OT.

The creator of this thread recognized that a difference exists between the heathen and someone else because of his use of the term. The fact there is a "heathen" demands there be someone else. Israel is never called "heathen." I am not mad at you for teaching and believing that Israel is defined over their OT history as "sheep" but suddenly, after the appearance of their Messiah in the flesh and of their geneology, a selected bunch of gentiles becomes sheep. Not all gentiles, but only those who are chosen to be sheep and Israelites before the foundation of the world. I am calling you out as being confused and teaching false doctrine. I am trying to do it with as much grace that I can muster and hope to help you with the truth.

There are foundational truths at stake here, IMO.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
IMHO

Jesus in the following

“And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16 NKJV


Is speaking of the following

Eze 37:18-24 NKJV “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— “say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ “And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; “and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. “They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.

The fold of John is the house of Judah to be joined with lost sheep of the house of Israel to become one flock with one shepherd.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@percho,
IMO, John 10:16 has to be taken with John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." That is what has actually been happening over the past 2,000 years. In 720 or so BC, the Northern kingdom of Israel were taken into captivity, and they have long since merged into the nations; they are gone. If they are anywhere, they are probably Palestinians! But every time an unbeliever trusts in Christ for salvation, he or she becomes a true Israelite (cf. Matthew 3:9).
Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled in the Gospel. 'That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed" (Romans 9:8). The Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree that is the Jews (Romans 11:11ff). There is now one people of God, believing Jew and believing Gentile together (Ephesians 2:11-16).
'In that day, Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria - a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance"' (Isaiah 19:24-25).
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@percho,
IMO, John 10:16 has to be taken with John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." That is what has actually been happening over the past 2,000 years. In 720 or so BC, the Northern kingdom of Israel were taken into captivity, and they have long since merged into the nations; they are gone. If they are anywhere, they are probably Palestinians! But every time an unbeliever trusts in Christ for salvation, he or she becomes a true Israelite (cf. Matthew 3:9).
Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled in the Gospel. 'That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed" (Romans 9:8). The Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree that is the Jews (Romans 11:11ff). There is now one people of God, believing Jew and believing Gentile together (Ephesians 2:11-16).
'In that day, Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria - a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance"' (Isaiah 19:24-25).

IMHO for the last 2000 years God has been taking out of, the Judeans and the Gentiles [Nations} a people for his name [the first-fruit of the Spirit]. After God is through taking a people for his name, to rule with Christ when he sits on the throne of his glory, then the tabernacle of David will be rebuilt. Acts 15:8,14,16 the regeneration. That is when it will be one flock and one shepherd.
V 8 YLT and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them [Gentiles, Nations v7] the Holy Spirit, even as also to us [Jews Judeans, house of Judah [Judah, Benjamin, Levi].

Then the residue of men can seek after the Lord and those chosen for his name to rule with him. Acts 17:17

I could be wrong but that is what I understand to be, truth.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Actually, no one on the earth is lost in the context of ownership of God except those who were owned by God. Those were lost, but God, the owner did not lose them, the stewards whom he appoint to care for and feed them lost them.

The sheep, Israel, is lost because they are God's. No one else can be lost because they are not nor have ever been God's.

Paul, writing 13 letters never says that non Israelites are lost.

He uses the word Sheep one time, clearly in the context of the saved remnant of Jews in Ro 8:36.

The heathen are separated from God by their sin, but they are not said to be lost.

And then, you quote Jesus saying,
Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
And then, you quote Jesus saying,
I have noted that Paul the apostle to the gentiles wrote 13 letters to us and never one time said we are lost. Jesus said he was not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. You do know what a house is, don't you? It is a family. So, Jesus was not sent but to the lost sheep of the family of Jacob, whose name God changed to Israel, a family of 12 tribes.

What is the geographical area where Jesus ministered when he came? Finding that out would be instructive. If he ministered only in the confines area of the family's land, it would surely confirm the truth he was telling, wouldn't it?

Have you ever read with discernment the gospel account of how the national leaders of Israel rejected his stated ministry to them, that he came to fulfill the OT prohecies to be their King and that he is the son of God, and through Mary the son of David? If he did not come to be King of Israel, what difference would it have made about his connection to David?

Did it ever occur to you that Jesus did not even preach to Israel when he came that he was coming to die on the cross and be buried and rise from the dead on the third day? Have you not read the account of how none of his closest disciples and apostles had a single clue that the person they had traveled with and preached with for the entirety of his misnistry was going to die in Jerusalem and rise from the dead? Do you not understand that Jesus Christ was preaching the gospel, the good news, the glad tidings of the kingdom of God on the earth and that he came to be their King?

I have read some of your stuff on this internet and have understood that your religion has led you away from the truth and what you preach on here comes from your teachers and not from the scriptures of truth.

Have you ever read the parables of Jesus during the last few weeks of his ministry and especially during the last week of his ministry what his reaction to his family rejecting his rule over them will be in the series of prophetical parables he gave?

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The church of Jesus Christ, with gentiles grafted in where the unbelieving Israelites were broken off from the root, is what God is doing in this age to form his bride who will be married to Jesus Christ and rule with him. What a great blessing to us gentiles! This is the mystery of Ephesians.

You have missed the whole message of the Bible and I am sorry about that.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles,

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
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JD731

Well-Known Member
If they did, they wouldn't be getting it from the Word of God.

Yours taught you to exualt Israel.

Get over that.

Worship God instead.
All we know about God is through this people Israel. One of the four stated purposes of raising this people and nation up as his own people is to get fame for himself through them among the other nations and that the nations by his actions may learn that he is the one true God over all the earth..
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Be it known concerning the heathen of the present age;

God is not forming a new Israel like is preached by many of the reformed believers. Everything connected to the church of Jesus Christ is "NEW." It is a new creation, a new man, entered into by a new birth and having the promise of a new glorified body and having hope of an eternal reign with Christ our head in the new Jerusalem in the new heaven and new earth that is coming. It is not the old man refurbished. When we are resurrected and translated with this glorified body like unto the glorified body of Jesus it will mean that every connection we had with Adam is taken away. The physical body of Christ and the spiritual body of Christ has no connection to Adam.

This does not mean that there are not other nations and a nation and people of Israel on the earth who are redeemed. Ones who believe such should read the two chapters in scriptures that describes the eternal state and believe it. Re 21-22.

There are Jews and gentiles in the church of Jesus Christ and their identity is not lost, but their standing is the same, sons of God.
 
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