-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Are The Heathen Lost Without The Gospel?
- Thread starter Alan Dale Gross
- Start date
If you ignore the words of the scriptures you can, yea, you must, make your own doctrines, and you certainly have. Or, more to the point, you have followed others who have made their doctrines up. Now, I am going to quote every Bible verse in the scriptures that says the heathen are lost since you did not quote a single one. Here goes;
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________!
The word "lost" does not show up but one time in the NT scriptures in 2 Cor 4:4 and it is in the context of what Paul said in chapter 3 to his own nation, Israel. It is they who were lost, as the scriptures in many passages bears witness.
Here is the scenario that God wants us to see concerning Israel.
1 Kings 22:17
And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the Lord said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.
Internally, the shepherds were at fault:
Jeremiah 50:17
Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.
Externally, these are at fault.
Ezekiel 34:8
As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast (metaphor for the heathen) of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
No seekers among the shepherds.
Jeremiah 23:1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.
Matthew 9:36
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house (family) of Israel.
Matthew 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was (past tense) lost.
The shepherds mishandled the sheep and lost them.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
It was not Jesus who was sent physically to the heathen and the above verses cannot be applied to the heathen. It was Paul who was sent to the heathen with the gospel of God, that they can be accepted by the Father through faith in the son.
I am not guessing about this. See here;
Ga 2:1Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles (that would be the gospel of God), but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these (apostles in Jerusalem) who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person
for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:Read carefully:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles):
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
The gentiles are defined in this context as heathen and Abraham's seed as circumcision.
The apostles have been commissioned as apostles to Israel and that commission was never rescinded. There was an additional apostle chosen to go to the heathen: His name is Paul. These apostles continued to seek out the lost sheep of the house of Israel who lived in the area in whiched they all preached. They wrote the letters that we term the general epistles to these people. Jesus did not go to these Isaelites in this area of Asia minor when he was here on earth but the covenant promises of the Old testiment still applied to them and God had promised them salvation and a kingdom. These epistles, when dealing with the comig of Christ was not speaking of the rapture as Paul did in his epistles, but of his coming in glory.
John had said in John 1:11 that Jesus came unto his own, and his own received him not. But a few on them received him and he gave to them eternal life. He was speaking particularly of Judah. This was his own because he was of the tribe of Judah. The scattered among Israel during the years since 722 BC were not his people but had this promise;
Hosea 7:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
Born again people are sons of God and no one can be born again except their sins are washed away and sins cannot be washed away except by blood, and only the blood of the Lamb could be the agent that can wash them away, and Jesus Christ the Lord is the Lamb of God who died by shedding his blood and being buried and rising the third day from the dead.
Jesus Christ would have returned and been the head of a redeemed nation had they received their Messiah as the son of God and the savior of their souls, but they did not. This does not mean it will never happen in the future because it will.
Israel, composed of 12 tribes, have been reckoned dead by God their Father and since 70 AD have been buried in the graveyard of the nations, awaiting resurrection and a new spiritual birth as the corporate son of God, whether you like it or not.
Thank God he let us heathen in on his blessings by grace and mercy.
37818
Well-Known Member
Romans 2:11-16, For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"Dead" = "lost."
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
1 "Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 "For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts,
to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
To conclude that Paul spoke only to "his own nation, Israel", cannot be established from the context of I Corinthians.
I Corinthians 1:1; "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:"
Yep, along with any other unsaved souls.
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:"
Who Jesus was sent to, in particular, as His Assigned Ministry, is irrelevant to the totality of those who He was sent to Save, shown below:
The words in the KJV are more precise than any words on the earth. God did not limit the use of the word 'lost' by accident. it was on purpose because only his people were lost. I have proven that with many OT scriptures. Think.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
How can you say that? Are you saying that only people who speak English can have access to the precise word of God?
How many nations were on the earth when Jesus Christ came the first time? How many did Jesus speak his words to? Read the history of the NT church. Did God send the apostle Paul to the gentiles to get them saved? The answer is yes. What gentiles did he send him to? It was the European gentiles. You cannot fool me on this because I have read the book of Acts. Does this mean that he never sent Paul to the Africans? The Asians in the far East? the Americas, the world? No, it means he sent the gentile church that was established by Paul by the extension of his ministry to these areas. God did not use magic to establish his church, he used shoe leather and the church is built one stone at a time.
Listen to this that came from the pen of Paul;
Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people (this people in the context is Israel), and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Why, because they were not elected? This is the elect nation and people [Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.]
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
The above was written in the mid 60's AD.
It was not any gentiles or every gentile, it was to the gentiles who will hear and receive this gospel that Paul preached. Your religion will not permit you to draw the right conclusions from this incident with the Jews, which was a closing of the door for them because of their national and ethical hard and unbelieving heart, setting the stage for the church of Jesus Christ to take on a gentile character for the continuation of this age and for Israel to be separated of a national identity and Jesus Christ to be separated from the government of his people.
I wish you folks could get around your belief that the Bible is a book of religion that is only concerned only with a few people, always including yourselves, who God is interested in saving, instead of a book of truth that makes sense.
Last edited:
You should quote these verses to the Calvinists but don't expect them to believe it. They don't believe anything that does not come out of their theology books.
Ex 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.
There is a problem without carefully considered context, no?
It is obvious you do not understand sheep. Letters to gentiles are not about sheep. Check me out. Sheep is mentioned once in thirteen gentile letters and that one was in the context of Israel. That must mean something as a take away, no?
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
I thought that's what I'd get.
Another place where you "allow" the Bible to say something
and now, God Himself to do something, based exclusively on you
and what you have decided to say that it is THE WAY IT GOES,
when The Bible, of course, isn't the one teaching this reasoning of yours
and God isn't the One Who has Said anything like what you have come up with,
Exclusively by Human Reason, alone, apart from Revelation from God
or The Holy Spirit.
I Corinthians' "context" is nowhere just Israel.
Your "reasoning" is.
Israel on your brain. Got it.
Just as if The New Testament NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL.
Wow Weeeeee.
Some synonyms for "hung up on Israel",
with precious little, to No Insight on the subject, "Israel",
as it is used from Genesis to Revelation,
include:
- Obsessed: Having an intense interest or fixation with Israel,
- Worried: Feeling concerned or anxious about Israel,
- Upset: Feeling troubled or disturbed about Israel,
- Disturbed: Feeling troubled, unsettled, or agitated about Israel,
- Preoccupied: Having something on your mind about Israel,
- Rapt: Feeling engrossed or absorbed about Israel,
- Enthusiastic: Feeling excited or passionate about Israel,
Infatuated: Feeling strongly attracted to the people of Israel,
Enraptured: Feeling captivated or enchanted by The Nation of Israel,
who is "hung up" on Israel, when God isn't , and Jesus isn't, and The Holy Spirit isn't;
mad, crazy, besotted, nuts, gaga, dotty, foolish, and silly.
Consider yourself informed.
...
THE INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE.
by T.P. Simmons
"The Bible is a Revelation from God.
And we are told in the Bible that God gave the Revelation by Inspiration.
"If the Bible is God's Revelation,
it is right to let it speak for itself concerning its own Nature.
"It is our purpose, then, in this chapter to inquire into the meaning and
nature of Inspiration, according to the Bible's own Testimony.
"In the course that we are here pursuing we are following reason in its highest
sense. It has been shown that reason demands a belief in God's Existence.
"And it has been pointed out, moreover,
that it is reasonable to expect a written Revelation from God.
"It is the province of reason, then, in relation to Revelation, first of all,
to examine the credentials of communications
that profess to be a Revelation from God.
"If these credentials are satisfactory,
then reason must accept the communications as coming from God;
and hence must accept the things presented as being true.
"Revelation is the viceroy who first presents his credentials to the provincial assembly,
and then presides" (Liebnitz).
REVELATION ABOVE REASON.
"In the foregoing manner, "reason itself prepares the way for a Revelation above reason, and warrants an implicit trust in such Revelation when once given" (Strong).
"Above Reason is Not Against Reason."
"It is only bald rationalism that rejects all it cannot fathom or rationally demonstrate.
"The most unreasonable people in the world
are those who depend solely upon reason, in the narrow sense"
(Strong).
"Mere reasoning or the exercise of the logical faculty is not all of reason.
"Reason, in its broad sense, comprehends the whole of the mind's power to recognize truth. Reason can rightly reject only that which contradicts known facts.
"And then, to be safe, reason must be "conditioned in its activity by a Holy Affection and Enlightened by the Spirit of God" (Strong).
"To such reason, the Scriptures present nothing contradictory,
although they do make known much beyond the unaided power of man
to discover or to comprehend fully."
That is as accurate and God-Honoring a statement as I have ever seen.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Tt
That is as accurate and God-Honoring a statement as I have ever seen.
I know.
JD731 said "most".
A faithful translation, initiated with the understanding
of The Divine Origin of The Bible, by Saved translators seeking God,
with the process of comparison, comparing reliable manuscripts,
using reliable philosophies of translation, has to be rubbing shoulders with the "most",
no matter what lanuage it is written in.
It's a surmountable project, but possible that way, and any other way is not, obviously,
because there is a God, and He's doesn't lie, and He is not stupid.
The King James Bible is in a class of all of its own,
soaring far above and out of sight of any takers.
That is just a provable Statement of Historical fact that you might want to know.
It is the source of embarrassment for some,
but it is no reason for anyone to feel sorry for themselves.
At least when you see what I have to say about it,
you'll know for absolute certainty that
God gave Mankind one of the greatest Gifts EVER, IN THE KJV.
The KJV delievers on assuring that we have the Word of God in our hands.
That is AS SURE, AS "JESUS IS NOT SATAN".
THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.
WE OUGHT TO BE ENTIRELY AND EXCLUSIVELY GREATFUL
(NOT BEING CHILDISHLY CRITICAL
OF THE ACTUAL CRITIC OF OUR VERY OWN LIVING BEING AND NEVERDYING SOUL)
AND THANK GOD ALMIGHTY FOR IT.
YOU'LL SEE. IT'S UNDENIABLE AND DOESN'T TAKE TOO LONG.
I'll start a new thread and post it here.
You just sit back and you watch.
That is as accurate and God-Honoring a statement as I have ever seen.
I know.
JD731 said "most".
A faithful translation, initiated with the understanding
of The Divine Origin of The Bible, by Saved translators seeking God,
with the process of comparison, comparing reliable manuscripts,
using reliable philosophies of translation, has to be rubbing shoulders with the "most",
no matter what lanuage it is written in.
It's a surmountable project, but possible that way, and any other way is not, obviously,
because there is a God, and He's doesn't lie, and He is not stupid.
The King James Bible is in a class of all of its own,
soaring far above and out of sight of any takers.
That is just a provable Statement of Historical fact that you might want to know.
It is the source of embarrassment for some,
but it is no reason for anyone to feel sorry for themselves.
At least when you see what I have to say about it,
you'll know for absolute certainty that
God gave Mankind one of the greatest Gifts EVER, IN THE KJV.
The KJV delievers on assuring that we have the Word of God in our hands.
That is AS SURE, AS "JESUS IS NOT SATAN".
THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.
WE OUGHT TO BE ENTIRELY AND EXCLUSIVELY GREATFUL
(NOT BEING CHILDISHLY CRITICAL
OF THE ACTUAL CRITIC OF OUR VERY OWN LIVING BEING AND NEVERDYING SOUL)
AND THANK GOD ALMIGHTY FOR IT.
YOU'LL SEE. IT'S UNDENIABLE AND DOESN'T TAKE TOO LONG.
I'll start a new thread and post it here.
You just sit back and you watch.
@Alan Dale Gross
If you believe the KJV to be the words God has given us you will be happy to know that he does not consider gentiles to be "lost" in it's pages. If you think I am wrong about that, quote him saying something different. Only sheep of the house of Israel are said to be lost. That is just a fact whether you like it or not.
Now, shifting gears, after the cross of Christ and after Israel, during the first few years of NT history, Acts 2-7, refused to receive the Holy Ghost, the gift of God and eternal life as a nation and a people, and waged war on the preachers, it could no longer be said they were "lost" because they weren't. Those in this historical setting who came to Jesus as sheep and were given to him by the Father were among those who accepted the baptism in water as a prerequisite to receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Included with them were those who believed Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and was the sacrifice for their sins and they likewise submitted to this baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and received the Holy Ghost, the new birth.
Now, you are being led down a path Alan Dale Gross by your teachers and your mind is blind to simple truths. The KJV cannot help you because it is not the KJV Bible that you are believing. For you it is a crutch and you are not learning anything that is true. I can feel for you, and I do, but I cannot reach you because you are blind and cannot see.
But, Alan Dale Gross, I am not your enemy and I am telling you the truth.
If you believe the KJV to be the words God has given us you will be happy to know that he does not consider gentiles to be "lost" in it's pages. If you think I am wrong about that, quote him saying something different. Only sheep of the house of Israel are said to be lost. That is just a fact whether you like it or not.
Now, shifting gears, after the cross of Christ and after Israel, during the first few years of NT history, Acts 2-7, refused to receive the Holy Ghost, the gift of God and eternal life as a nation and a people, and waged war on the preachers, it could no longer be said they were "lost" because they weren't. Those in this historical setting who came to Jesus as sheep and were given to him by the Father were among those who accepted the baptism in water as a prerequisite to receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Included with them were those who believed Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and was the sacrifice for their sins and they likewise submitted to this baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and received the Holy Ghost, the new birth.
Now, you are being led down a path Alan Dale Gross by your teachers and your mind is blind to simple truths. The KJV cannot help you because it is not the KJV Bible that you are believing. For you it is a crutch and you are not learning anything that is true. I can feel for you, and I do, but I cannot reach you because you are blind and cannot see.
But, Alan Dale Gross, I am not your enemy and I am telling you the truth.