Are the Jews still God's people?

[Allan]

According to the apostle Paul, you are not "God's people" by physical birth, by being a Jew, by being an Israelite, by being a physcial descendent of Abraham.......You become God's people by faith in Christ alone. If you don't receive Christ as Savior, you will be condemned, regardless of nationality or blood line.
Israel is nation, just like the USA. That is all.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Amy, you need to keep the context. Paul speaking of the "Jewish people" and was establishing that just because they were Jews naturally did not make them Jews spiritually. So what did make "THEM" Jews. Paul never states it makes all people Jews. Paul completely kept Israel and the Church seperate. And how do we know this, because in the same book (Romans) chapter 11 Paul states this about National Israel and contastes them with the Church.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, ...

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

So if Israel (spiritual) is the Church then Pauls has some serious explaining to do.

Verse 1 asks has God cast away His "people". (Remember this cause it is important). Answer: No but has saved a small remenant (as seen in verse 4).
Is this the Church?
If so then God has cast away a great portion of it for a smaller group. Thus here Paul is expressly speaking of the Jewish Nation whom God has foreknew.

Verse 4 states that of those 'same' people God reserved a remenant.
As I said if this is the Church we have God forsaking many "His people" for a remnant. Now did God ever tell the Jews I will never leave you nor forsake you OR was this only given by Christ to the Church?

Let us continue.. Keeping with the prescribed theme thus far we see in verse Verse 15 something very key to note. If their casting away be the reconciling of the world.. -
Amy, who is they here? Is it not national Israel? Of course. Now watch context closely here: "what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?". Now if context states those cast away was national Israel then who does context demand be the "them" who shall be recieved? Is it not whom Paul began speaking of regarding His People - that being National Israel?
Individuals were not cast away, even though those individuals make up the nation it was the Nation as a whole. We know this because if it was individuals then no Jew could be saved.

Watch again here - it becomes very clear that Paul distinquishes between Israel and the Church:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Is Israel being mentioned by Paul here - the Church? No, because that aspect is specific to the phrase "time of the Gentiles". But notice that Paul says something important here as well. He states I don't want you ignorant about this mystery. What mystery is Israel was the Church and that is what Paul has supposedly already established. But here Paul stating that a Israel is partially blinded till the fullness of the Gentiles has ended. A distinction plain and simple. Continue with this sister and watch it unfold (I hope )

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

So contexually it has been established that, in this chapter at least, Paul is speaking consistantly about Israel being national Israel. So if Israel (that being National Isreal) has a partial blinding (not complete therefore they are not cast away) for the express purpose of reconciling the world, then what can their (national Israel) recieving back be but life from the dead (vs 15)- thus "all Israel will be saved". Paul is saying the samething twice he is just elaborating more the second time. The Paul quotes an OT prophet who states until this deliverer Israel sins will remain because it is the deliverer alone who removed them completely. But notice that the OT prophets states this is my Covenant to them 'WHEN' I shall take away their sins. Notice also that it states the "sins of Jacob" meaning a decended linage from which Israel sprang - (Jacob or Israel himself). The term Israel can not in any way be the Church if one actaully holds to context. The only way it can be the church if you flips flops the defintion to maintain a theological presupposition.

But hold up. We have another to look at that proves my point in spades.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Remember that 'all Israel will be saved" as God promised them. If Israel means the church, as some presume in error, then I must ask. When was the Church ever considered an enemy concerning the gospel? Yet, regarding National Israel we see it plainly spelled out - they were counted as enmies for the sake of gospel (reconciling of the world - time of the getiles) but concerning election they (National Israel - a particular ethnic people) are beloved for the Fathers sake. Thus they are not cast aside but will be brought back in. Thus it 'can not' be the church.

Regarding this restoration of National Israel, John Macarthur writes this:

Even John Murray, a leading amillennialist (one who does not believe in a literal, 1,000-year earthly kingdom promised to the Jews and ruled by Christ on the throne of David in Jerusalem, but who generally believes that God’s dealing with the nation of Israel ended with their rejection of Jesus Christ), cannot resist the power of the marvelous truth that Paul stresses here. In his commentary on Romans, Murray amazingly observes that “there cannot be irremediable rejection of Israel. The holiness of the theocratic consecration is not abolished and will one day be vindicated in Israel’s fulness and restoration” (The Epistle to the Romans [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1965], p. 85).

Context establishes that Again, remember that the theme of chapter 11 is national and not personal. Yet some would rather we not go with context to define this word (Israel) but instead let their theological position determine what a word or phrase is to mean. Thus this verse 'must' now change (by some magical means) from National, Pauls consistant useage, to a spiritized one.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Are the Jews still God's people?

Yes they are!

Gen 17:1-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And when Abram was ninetie yeres old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said vnto him, I am the almightie God, walke before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I wil make my couenant betweene me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my couenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall bee Abraham: for a father of many nations haue I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitfull, and I will make nations of thee, and Kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my couenant betweene me and thee, and thy seede after thee, in their generations for an euerlasting couenant, to bee a God vnto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will giue vnto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an euerlasting possession, and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said vnto Abraham, Thou shalt keepe my couenant therefore, thou, and thy seede after thee, in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my couenant, which yee shall keepe betweene me and you, and thy seed after thee: euery man child among you shall be circumcised.

Here is my testimony: I bear on my body the SIGN OF ABRAHAM - the sign of the covenant between G-d and Abraham. Check the expiration date on the covenant between G-d and Abraham - I made it all bold & large & Red for ya.

The Jews are still God's people.
But before the plan was made Jews: G-d had a better plan - G-d would send His main son as redeemer for "whosoever will may come".

BTW, the Old Testament Good News is the everlasting covenant God made with with Abraham is called "THE FAITH".
(The Good News of the New Testament is called "THE WAY").

 

[Martin Luther]

Why, of course, Luke was a Jew!

Cheers,

Jim

Do you mean he was an Israelite who followed the law? I see the law at the time of Christ as being very convoluted, men like Joseph and Mary would have followed the law more perfectly but there were those who preferred the Talmud over the bible. Christ referred to this as “the traditions of their fathers". This was undoubtedly the wickedness Christ referred to when he was blasting the Pharisees and Sadducees. Many Christians make the mistake of assuming the law and Judaism are the same religion, they are as different as Baptists are from Catholics, yet both are called “Christian”.

 

[Martin Luther]

Are the Jews still God's people?

Yes they are!

Gen 17:1-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And when Abram was ninetie yeres old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said vnto him, I am the almightie God, walke before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I wil make my couenant betweene me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my couenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall bee Abraham: for a father of many nations haue I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitfull, and I will make nations of thee, and Kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my couenant betweene me and thee, and thy seede after thee, in their generations for an euerlasting couenant, to bee a God vnto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will giue vnto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an euerlasting possession, and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said vnto Abraham, Thou shalt keepe my couenant therefore, thou, and thy seede after thee, in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my couenant, which yee shall keepe betweene me and you, and thy seed after thee: euery man child among you shall be circumcised.

Here is my testimony: I bear on my body the SIGN OF ABRAHAM - the sign of the covenant between G-d and Abraham. Check the expiration date on the covenant between G-d and Abraham - I made it all bold & large & Red for ya.

The Jews are still God's people.
But before the plan was made Jews: G-d had a better plan - G-d would send His main son as redeemer for "whosoever will may come".

BTW, the Old Testament Good News is the everlasting covenant God made with with Abraham is called "THE FAITH".
(The Good News of the New Testament is called "THE WAY").

Genesis 17:14 (King James Version)

14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.



Jude 1:5 (King James Version)

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my couenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.






Your right, salvation has never been about blood, we see above that Abraham is called the father of MANY nations. God is building a nation of people who will follow Him, among those He will cleanse of their sin. All men come to God through Christ.

 

[Martin Luther]

Amy, you need to keep the context. Paul speaking of the "Jewish people" and was establishing that just because they were Jews naturally did not make them Jews spiritually. So what did make "THEM" Jews. Paul never states it makes all people Jews. Paul completely kept Israel and the Church seperate. And how do we know this, because in the same book (Romans) chapter 11 Paul states this about National Israel and contastes them with the Church.

You are getting Jew and Israelite confused, they are not the same, Paul’s reference to the jew is a reference to those following the law. These jews were a mix of every race, as seen in Esther 8:17.


A jew was just one who followed the law.

Romans 2:17 (King James Version)

17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

 

[Jim1999]

Luke was a gentile!!!!!!

English people are special to God. The Church of England gave us the KJV. Surely that counts as much as the Jews being Jewish and living in Israel to-day counts.

Sorry, Israel is just another nation to-day. The Jews of old were just an instrument of God to carry His message of redemption in that age to be replaced by the Church of Christ after Pentecost.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[LadyEagle]

I couldn't disagree with that statement more. Those who oppose your view have offered ample Biblical evidence. Your side may not agree with it but that is no reason to badmouth fellow Christians.

I am not bad mouthing fellow Christians, but if you choose to see it that way, so be it. Replacement theology is a curse because it was born out of error. It has seeds in the writings of Marcion and was brought to fruitition through Augustine's "City of God." It was reinforced and engrained into Christianity by the Roman Catholic church and the Lutheran Church.

Replacement theology also played a role in Nazi Germany and has played a role in Islam, where the promises made to Abraham through Isaac were replaced by Ishmael. It is a curse that has spread it's evil around the globe for centuries to disown and destroy Jews, assigning to them the curses of God and heaping onto the Church all the promises of God ever since Gentiles took over as the church fathers.

The original church fathers were Jews. In Acts, they were trying to decide on what basis they would allow Gentiles into the Early Church. The first missionaries were Jews. Paul was a Jew. So were the apostles. Jesus is a Jew. Jesus is a rabbi. He is the Messiah.

Please explain in your view what does "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" mean?

Tell me, in your view, what does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean in Romans 11:25?

 

[Jim1999]

Augustine was much closer to the New Testament churches than was John Nelson Darby, the inventor of dispensationalism!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Martin Luther]

Luke was a gentile!!!!!!

English people are special to God. The Church of England gave us the KJV. Surely that counts as much as the Jews being Jewish and living in Israel to-day counts.

Sorry, Israel is just another nation to-day. The Jews of old were just an instrument of God to carry His message of redemption in that age to be replaced by the Church of Christ after Pentecost.

Cheers,

Jim

I agree with most of what you said, except for a jew being an Israelite. They are different. I agree that the church is the only bride of Christ, however God does save 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, these I do not spiritualize. These 144,000 are added to the church.

 

[Martin Luther]

Augustine was much closer to the New Testament churches than was John Nelson Darby, the inventor of dispensationalism!

Cheers,

Jim

Absolutely.

 

[Marcia]

Nobody here is saying salvation is different for anyone. It's always salvation by grace through faith for everyone.

Replacement theology ignores promises made to Israel - this has been discussed already, either here or another thread, or both, and on several threads in the Baptist forum where there are a lot of ad hominems going on.

Replacement theology seems to be looking at soteriology and not endtimes. Dispensationalism is looking at endtimes more than sotieriology.

 

[LadyEagle]

And dispensationalism is not the topic of this thread, or is it?

My questions still remain for those of the opposing view:

Please explain in your view what does "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" mean?

Tell me, in your view, what does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean in Romans 11:25?

 

[LadyEagle]

Luke was a gentile!!!!!!

That certainly is Church tradition handed down through the centuries, but is subject for another thread and is debatable and has no strong Biblical evidence to support it unless you can provide it in another thread. He certainly knew a lot about Jewish law for being a Gentile.

First you said Luke was a Jew. Then you said Luke was a Gentile. Which is it?

 

[billwald]

In another 1000 years when Jesus hasn't returned, no evidence that anyone was Raptured, and/or Israel has been over run . . . what will Christianity be teaching?

 

[Martin Luther]

Nobody here is saying salvation is different for anyone. It's always salvation by grace through faith for everyone.

Replacement theology ignores promises made to Israel - this has been discussed already, either here or another thread, or both, and on several threads in the Baptist forum where there are a lot of ad hominems going on.

Replacement theology seems to be looking at soteriology and not endtimes. Dispensationalism is looking at endtimes more than sotieriology.

Even in the O.T., God spared His people based on their faith, today this is no different. The ONLY thing different this time is the Sacrifice. God is still building His church, even the O.T. saints were saved by the gospel, added to the church.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

It won't happen. Israel won't be overrun. Period.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And dispensationalism is not the topic of this thread, or is it?

My questions still remain for those of the opposing view:

Please explain in your view what does "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" mean?

Tell me, in your view, what does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean in Romans 11:25?

GE:
I answer as a Reformed - Calvinist - Protestant:

You asked:
"Please explain in your view what does "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" mean?"

GE:
Just what the words say; cf., 1Thess2:13, 2Tim2:19.

You asked,
"Tell me, in your view, what does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean in Romans 11:25?"

GE:
Jesu Christ is the Fulness of the Gentiles: "The all in all fulfilling fulness" of God, Eph1:19.
Forget it, israel shal never converst to Christ; maybe to Christianity; but not to Christ.
Another text says God's wrath rests on them till the end.
If you wait for the Jews to become believers, you will be unpleasantly surprised!

The Jews and the Palestines are infidels, and the Christian cannot take side either way. Christianity politically committed spiritual sin when it created the state of Israel.

I hold nothing 'racial' against the Jews; I am just realistic.

 

[Martin Luther]

And dispensationalism is not the topic of this thread, or is it?

My questions still remain for those of the opposing view:

Please explain in your view what does "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" mean?

Tell me, in your view, what does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean in Romans 11:25?

Did God foreknow you? Are you now one of His children, made heirs of the promise through faith?


God will save 144,000 of physical Israel; these are added to the church. Just because God saves some of physical Israel does not mean that they replace the church, they are added to the church. It is my belief that the fullness of the gentiles ended over a 1000 years ago.

 

[Martin Luther]

It won't happen. Israel won't be overrun. Period.

The only Israel safe will be the one Christ marries, the church.

 

[LadyEagle]

GE:
I answer as a Reformed - Calvinist - Protestant:

You asked:
"Please explain in your view what does "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" mean?"

GE:
Just what the words say; cf., 1Thess2:13, 2Tim2:19.

Please explain. It would seem to me you have taken the passage in Romans out of context as I Thes 2:13 and 2Tim 2:19 are not speaking to the same issue here.

You asked,
"Tell me, in your view, what does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean in Romans 11:25?"

GE:
Jesu Christ is the Fulness of the Gentiles: "The all in all fulfilling fulness" of God, Eph1:19.

Please explain how you derived that conclusion from Eph.1:19. Thanks.

Another text says God's wrath rests on them till the end.

Which text?

Without Christ, there is no Christianity, so I don't get what you are saying. They cannot accept one without the other.